Ireland Tour to New Zealand 2012 Discussion thread

boynesider

.ak wrote: »

You'd imagine if Heaslip got injured SOB would fit into 8, POM to 7? Would be nice to have Locky in the squad as a bolter though, because then we're relying on Fez's dodgy knees...

I've always liked SOB at 8 but he is starting to really get the hang of the openside and I can't wait to see him go up against McCaw. POM has been very eye-catching at 8 for Munster and I would back him to step up in that position if Heaslip was injured.

Anyway enough about the back row, it's a relatively minor issue in this squad. Personally I still can't get over the non-selection of Madigan and Dave Kearney. There was nothing stopping Kidney from bringing Madigan along with ROG if he wanted to

rrpc

Deleted User wrote: »

2 players per position is the dream

1. Healy / Court - Wilkonson / McAllister
2. Best / Cronin - Sherry not a million miles off the pace, Strauss IQ in November
3. Ross / N/A - step down to Fitzpatrick / Court / Loughney, and then again to Macklin / Hagan / Archer
4. POC / McCarthy - Toner
5. Ryan / Tuohy - (not bad cover tbh, will get some change from Caldwell, Nagle, Flannagan, Henderson, Kearney)
6. Ferris / SOB - POM, McLaughlin, Muldoon
7. SOB / Henry - POM, Ryan (not really)
8. Heaslip / Henry - POM and SOB
9. Reddan / Murray - Boss and Marshall
10. Sexton/ ROG - Madigan, Jackson, Keatley to push into that second jersey within 12 months.
11. Earls / Trimble - Fitz, Gilroy, Kearney, Zebo, O'Halloran
12. D'Arcy / McFadden - Sexton (:eek:), Wallace, Spence will be here soon
13. BOD / Cave - Earls , McFadden
14. Bowe / Trimble - McFadden, Gilroy, Kearney.
15. Kearney / Earls - Jones - fall off to A.Darcy and D.Kearney

We are not that far off it, but none of that has anything to do with the National Squad.

I'd be looking at two younger guys in the third spot in each position. For example where you have Madigan/Jackson/Keatley the SH slots could be Marshall/McGrath or Cooney who impressed me with his seven minute cameo last weekend.

CoDy1

CoDy1 wrote: »

'!=' does not equal '='

So '!=' != '='??

Flincher

dub_skav wrote: »

Jaysus, how did this turn into a Heaslip thread.
Well, here I come with my ill-considered opinion.

The break off the scrum is no longer an oft used tactic by clever coaches. The scrum is the only time when you have a 7 on 7 with a full pitch to play in, the 8 picking and getting at best to the 10 channel means that the whole oppositon pack can get to the ruck quickly.
Cheika was a forward and trying to instill a toughness in the Leinster team, so he still saw the 8 break as a crucial pivotal tactic for his Leinster team - hence Heaslip's great work off the scrum in that period.
Schmidt is a back and an extremely clever operator so he sees the scrum as the essential tool for launching backline moves.
Kidney is a moron so his "tactics" don't seem to suggest a plan at all.

If your 8 makes it to the 10 channel, the opposition backrow has to retreat at least 5 metres if they are going to compete at the break down. Used properly it gives you at least one extra man if you go wide off fast second phase ball, or front foot runnners if want to keep it tighter.

It's a valuable attacking tool used properly. I actually think it should be used regularly, as it ties the opposition 9 and backrow to the scrum, giving an extra yard of space when you do go wide.

Fireball07

Deleted User wrote: »

2 players per position is the dream

1. Healy / Court - Wilkonson / McAllister
2. Best / Cronin - Sherry not a million miles off the pace, Strauss IQ in November
3. Ross / N/A - step down to Fitzpatrick / Court / Loughney, and then again to Macklin / Hagan / Archer
4. POC / McCarthy - Toner
5. Ryan / Tuohy - (not bad cover tbh, will get some change from Caldwell, Nagle, Flannagan, Henderson, Kearney)
6. Ferris / SOB - POM, McLaughlin, Muldoon
7. SOB / Henry - POM, Ryan (not really)
8. Heaslip / Henry - POM and SOB
9. Reddan / Murray - Boss and Marshall
10. Sexton/ ROG - Madigan, Jackson, Keatley to push into that second jersey within 12 months.
11. Earls / Trimble - Fitz, Gilroy, Kearney, Zebo, O'Halloran
12. D'Arcy / McFadden - Sexton (:eek:), Wallace, Spence will be here soon
13. BOD / Cave - Earls , McFadden
14. Bowe / Trimble - McFadden, Gilroy, Kearney.
15. Kearney / Earls - Jones - fall off to A.Darcy and D.Kearney

We are not that far off it, but none of that has anything to do with the National Squad.

The future is bright for Ireland in terms of personnel, I think. Once we get the props sorted, everywhere else we do have a lot of talent, it's just a question of playing them and integrating them into the team.

Heroditas

boynesider wrote: »

I don't know why but his carrying has gone to muck

He's just not carrying as much, it's as simple as that.
He's also effectively operating as Ireland's openside at the breakdown, freeing up Ferris and O'Brien for the carrying role.
He's a great pilferer but we really need someone in the mould of Keith Gleeson to wear a green jersey to see Heaslip make those barnstorming runs again.

Clegg

Heaslip can't win with some people.

When he first broke came onto the scene he was called a show pony. He was criticised for hanging out on the wing and not doing the dirty work at the breakdown. And now that he's getting stuck in at every ruck people are complaining that he isn't carrying as well.

It's a ridiculous argument.

Higher

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Some of the people do realise that there is more than just Munster and Leinster people posting here

Christ the painting of every munster fan as bitter is pathetic at this stage

I said a certain portion and its definitely true.

search 'Heaslip' 'Houdini' 'showpony' on Munsterfans.com and see for yourself.

rrpc

Heroditas wrote: »

He's just not carrying as much, it's as simple as that.
He's also effectively operating as Ireland's openside at the breakdown, freeing up Ferris and O'Brien for the carrying role.
He's a great pilferer but we really need someone in the mould of Keith Gleeson to wear a green jersey to see Heaslip make those barnstorming runs again.

Everyone these days has to do the pilfering, especially for Leinster. Depending on how quick the opposition are, the best you're going to get is the 'seven' at one ruck in every two. It's usually more like one in three.

Sean O'Brien, D'Arcy, BOD, Strauss and Healy have all done the pilfering work in additionto Heaslip.

Banbridgeman

Heaslip is a fantastic player. From an Ulster fan

LorMal

i am probably totally alone on this but I think POC Is not a good ball carrier and plays an old fashioned 'heads down and rush' game. He certainly brings great physicality and is a good line out operator but I think he is a liability in open play. He goes to ground very quickly and does not offload in the tackle - any momentum gained is quickly lost and defences have plenty of time to regroup. Only saying....

Fireball07

LorMal wrote: »

i am probably totally alone on this but I think POC Is not a good ball carrier and plays an old fashioned 'heads down and rush' game. He certainly brings great physicality and is a good line out operator but I think he is a liability in open play. He goes to ground very quickly and does not offload in the tackle - any momentum gained is quickly lost and defences have plenty of time to regroup. Only saying....

I doubt your alone. POC is not a great ball carrier. There are certain instances where he is very useful, he very very rarely gets turned over, and simply for securing possession, he's a good option. But when you want to be making big yards, then you're right, he's not that effective. He's not terrible, but Ireland have Ferris/SOB/Heaslip/Healy/Best/Ryan who are all better than him in that regard.

But his game isn't really about ball-carrying.

Teferi

POC is good if you need to reset. He won't get turned over and you're not wasting a big yard carrier like Fez or SOB.

rrpc

Fireball07 wrote: »

I doubt your alone. POC is not a great ball carrier. There are certain instances where he is very useful, he very very rarely gets turned over, and simply for securing possession, he's a good option. But when you want to be making big yards, then you're right, he's not that effective. He's not terrible, but Ireland have Ferris/SOB/Heaslip/Healy/Best/Ryan who are all better than him in that regard.

But his game isn't really about ball-carrying.

To be fair to POC, there seems to be an unwritten rule in rugby that locks can't carry more than the required two paces and fall down.

It's like some sort of package deal. You're a lock? Ok, here's your four feet and no hands.

Fireball07

rrpc wrote: »

To be fair to POC, there seems to be an unwritten rule in rugby that locks can't carry more than the required two paces and fall down.

It's like some sort of package deal. You're a lock? Ok, here's your four feet and no hands.

Unless your name is Richie Gray

rrpc

Fireball07 wrote: »

Unless your name is Richie Gray

He's just a freak

Tox56

rrpc wrote: »

To be fair to POC, there seems to be an unwritten rule in rugby that locks can't carry more than the required two paces and fall down.

It's like some sort of package deal. You're a lock? Ok, here's your four feet and no hands.

Maybe that is why Kidney picked DOC and POC, he was convinced that rule was true, and therefore wouldn't select Ryan and Tuohy because he didn't believe a lock could be a destructive carrier.

rrpc

Tox56 wrote: »

Maybe that is why Kidney picked DOC and POC, he was convinced that rule was true, and therefore wouldn't select Ryan and Tuohy because he didn't believe a lock could be a destructive carrier.

You could be onto something there. Devin Toner is dirtying his bib in that respect too.

Paul O'Connell sometimes makes a big carry, but I get the impression he's as surprised as I am when it happens.

Flincher

Tox56 wrote: »

Maybe that is why Kidney picked DOC and POC, he was convinced that rule was true, and therefore wouldn't select Ryan and Tuohy because he didn't believe a lock could be a destructive carrier.

rrpc wrote: »

You could be onto something there. Devin Toner is dirtying his bib in that respect too.

Destructive wouldn't be quite the adjective that springs to mind when I think of Devin Toner. I'd almost expect him to ask permission before trying to barge past someone.

GerM

Flincher wrote: »

Destructive wouldn't be quite the adjective that springs to mind when I think of Devin Toner. I'd almost expect him to ask permission before trying to barge past someone.

Couldn't class him as destructive but, based on this season's carrying, I'd put him ahead of Cullen, POC and DOC as a carrier. His game with ball in hand is unrecognisable this season from where it was previously but mud sticks with his reputation as being an awkward, ineffective carrier following him.

Tox56

Toner is definitely getting better, he is learning how to actually use 20 stone in contact.

He'll never be like Tuohy, and he doesn't really need to be, but he is learning to make yards when called upon.

Raisins

I feel sorry for Gilroy in particular. I think he definitely deserved a place in the squad ahead of Zebo.

I hope Declan Fitzpatrick stays fit for the next few months if he does he could emerge as a real alternative to Ross.

Fireball07

rrpc wrote: »

He's just a freak

What height is Henderson?

He could be our very own Richie Gray.

ormond lad

Fireball07 wrote: »

What height is Henderson?

He could be our very own Richie Gray.

About 6'6".

Tox56

Henderson has the raw speed and strength, but he was also great in the lineout in that game v Munster. They really might have unearthed something there.

Fireball07

ormond lad wrote: »

About 6'6".

Not quite as tall as Gray but that doesn't really matter. If he can bulk up, while retaining his pace, he could be a fearsome prospect. Hopefully he'll see lots of gametime next season.

He seemed POC-esque for the U-20s, and add that extra dimension, who knows how good he could become?

dtpc191991

Kidney has said in an interview he's not going to experiment as you have to honour NZ with a full team. FFS!!!!!!! This tour just got real boring. =(

trackguy

I'd love to see Tuohy stepping up on this tour. He has the tools to succeed POC. Hopefully he gets a chance!

Kayless

dtpc191991 wrote: »

Kidney has said in an interview he's not going to experiment as you have to honour NZ with a full team. FFS!!!!!!! This tour just got real boring. =(

http://www.kidneyclock.net/

tolosenc

From Brian Moore in yesterday's Torygraph:

"With the pool of talent available they should not be mentioning things like their relatively small playing base and the like.

A change in attitude is needed whereby they seize their status as the most talented group of players in the northern hemisphere, accept they should be and are favourites.

Then they need to openly declare their aim for grand slams and World Cup finals, being disappointed with anything less."

(http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/ireland/9278267/Leinsters-Heineken-Cup-success-shines-spotlight-on-Irish-national-teams-failings.html)