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Ireland Tour to New Zealand 2012 Discussion thread

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    #692
    Tox56
    Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    tolosenc wrote: »
    From Brian Moore in yesterday's Torygraph:

    "With the pool of talent available they should not be mentioning things like their relatively small playing base and the like.

    A change in attitude is needed whereby they seize their status as the most talented group of players in the northern hemisphere, accept they should be and are favourites.

    Then they need to openly declare their aim for grand slams and World Cup finals, being disappointed with anything less."

    (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/ireland/9278267/Leinsters-Heineken-Cup-success-shines-spotlight-on-Irish-national-teams-failings.html)

    Such a contrast with Thornley, apparently it is unfair to blame Kidney for the failure to transfer provincial form to internationals:

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0522/1224316501983.html


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    #693
    danthefan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭danthefan


    Tox56 wrote: »
    Such a contrast with Thornley, apparently it is unfair to blame Kidney for the failure to transfer provincial form to internationals:

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0522/1224316501983.html

    That is the absolute worst article I've ever read from Thornley.

    It would be unfair to blame Kidinme. WHY?

    It would be unfair on Kiss to bring on Schmidt. WHY?

    Neither of these are answered.

    Munster were at a disadvantage because ROG didn't start. Actually he played the vast majority of the game, was rubbish, and Munster didn't score a single point while he was on the field.

    Having pissed and moaned about Foley not getting the Munster job, now he's apparently dodged a bullet.

    Waxing lyrical about the RWC, overlooking the reaming we took in the QF.


    He will defend Kidney to the last it seems. Or at least until he loses his access/the rugby public at large turn on him. It's absolutely desperate. By far the best writing on rugby in this country comes from blogs.


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    #694
    trackguy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,246 ✭✭✭trackguy


    Moore's point is interesting about the Irish front 5. I don't necessarily agree about them struggling in the tight (he may focussing too heavily on the England match in the 2012 6N) but they certainly don't have a great impact in the loose compared with other international teams.


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    #695
    Quint2010
    Registered Users Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭Quint2010


    "The Australian has been a superb addition to the Ireland coaching ticket and shown himself to be a cutting edge defensive coach, with his employment of the choke tackle and a defence which varies between drifting and pressing, as well as encompassing shooters.".

    So what happened against Wales this year?


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    #696
    RoundBox11
    Registered Users Posts: 854 ✭✭✭RoundBox11


    Quint2010 wrote: »
    "The Australian has been a superb addition to the Ireland coaching ticket and shown himself to be a cutting edge defensive coach, with his employment of the choke tackle and a defence which varies between drifting and pressing, as well as encompassing shooters.".

    So what happened against Wales this year?


    Ah now in fairness, Kiss is a great defensive coach. Apart from the Welsh match the team is always solid defensively


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    #697
    WeeBushy
    Registered Users Posts: 3,572 ✭✭✭WeeBushy


    The only reason we're competitive at the moment is our defence imo.


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    #698
    Quint2010
    Registered Users Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭Quint2010


    RoundBox11 wrote: »
    Ah now in fairness, Kiss is a great defensive coach. Apart from the Welsh match the team is always solid defensively

    Apart from the Welsh match? The match that was always going to make or break our 6N campaign? Where we had ample opportunity to lay down a marker and at the same time get revenge over the welsh for the World Cup QF debacle?


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    #699
    RoundBox11
    Registered Users Posts: 854 ✭✭✭RoundBox11


    Quint2010 wrote: »
    Apart from the Welsh match? The match that was always going to make or break our 6N campaign? Where we had ample opportunity to lay down a marker and at the same time get revenge over the welsh for the World Cup QF debacle?


    Well were open to suggestions of a coach who is perfect and never makes bad decisions...


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    #700
    shuffol
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,883 ✭✭✭shuffol


    tolosenc wrote: »
    From Brian Moore in yesterday's Torygraph:

    "With the pool of talent available they should not be mentioning things like their relatively small playing base and the like.

    A change in attitude is needed whereby they seize their status as the most talented group of players in the northern hemisphere, accept they should be and are favourites.

    Then they need to openly declare their aim for grand slams and World Cup finals, being disappointed with anything less."

    (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/ireland/9278267/Leinsters-Heineken-Cup-success-shines-spotlight-on-Irish-national-teams-failings.html)

    Doesnt NZ have roughly the same playing base as we do.

    The quality of punditry in this country is shocking, I think part of the problem is that many of the pundits/journalists are past players from a time when Ireland had no real expectations and were just content to compete


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    #701
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,886 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Tox56 wrote: »
    Such a contrast with Thornley, apparently it is unfair to blame Kidney for the failure to transfer provincial form to internationals:

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0522/1224316501983.html

    That article would be funny if it wasn't so pathetic.


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    #702
    RoundBox11
    Registered Users Posts: 854 ✭✭✭RoundBox11


    shuffol wrote: »
    Doesnt NZ have roughly the same playing base as we do.

    The quality of punditry in this country is shocking, I think part of the problem is that many of the pundits/journalists are past players from a time when Ireland had no real expectations and were just content to compete


    No. Well technically the numbers might be similar but rugby is their number one sport by far. Not many kids would be playing other sports to a high level.

    Whereas, a huge amount of the irish players listed would play GAA aswell or other sports. Kids in school here especially would play rugby aswell as whatever else they play.

    So where the numbers might be similar, the number of people who are dedicated to rugby alone would be far higher in NZ.


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    #703
    dtpc191991
    Registered Users Posts: 776 ✭✭✭dtpc191991


    Kayless wrote: »
    http://www.kidneyclock.net/

    Is there anyway to you know get that 364 days down to about a second.XD


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    #704
    Tox56
    Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    Moore says it best, the numbers aren't important, we have the pool of talent available we just aren't using it as well as we could.


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    #705
    Quint2010
    Registered Users Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭Quint2010


    RoundBox11 wrote: »
    Well were open to suggestions of a coach who is perfect and never makes bad decisions...

    Bad decisions? The IRFU employ a coach whose specialist role is to optimise our defensive system. This system failed catastrophically against Wales. I mean-what happened?


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    #706
    RoundBox11
    Registered Users Posts: 854 ✭✭✭RoundBox11


    Quint2010 wrote: »
    Bad decisions? The IRFU employ a coach whose specialist role is to optimise our defensive system. This system failed catastrophically against Wales. I mean-what happened?


    Dude seriously, you can't axe a defensive coach for one bad game, especially when he's been so good otherwise. I've been in coaching situations myself where you make a balls of a situation. It happens!


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    #707
    Fishooks12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,318 ✭✭✭Fishooks12


    RoundBox11 wrote: »
    Dude seriously, you can't axe a defensive coach for one bad game, especially when he's been so good otherwise. I've been in coaching situations myself where you make a balls of a situation. It happens!

    I'd agree

    Our defense is probably the one thing that is someway consistent with Irish rugby atm


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    #708
    Shelflife
    Registered Users Posts: 3,074 ✭✭✭Shelflife


    What time Irish time do the games kick off?


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    #709
    Quint2010
    Registered Users Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭Quint2010


    RoundBox11 wrote: »
    Dude seriously, you can't axe a defensive coach for one bad game, especially when he's been so good otherwise. I've been in coaching situations myself where you make a balls of a situation. It happens!

    Never said I wanted him sacked but our defensive system was really poor in that game.


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    #710
    ormond lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,632 ✭✭✭ormond lad


    Shelflife wrote: »
    What time Irish time do the games kick off?
    7.30am


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    #711
    totallegend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,234 ✭✭✭totallegend


    RoundBox11 wrote: »
    Dude seriously, you can't axe a defensive coach for one bad game, especially when he's been so good otherwise. I've been in coaching situations myself where you make a balls of a situation. It happens!

    The problem is not Kiss as the defence coach.

    The problem is that Kiss is also the attack coach. The problem is that there hasn't been a fresh voice in the coaching setup for four years. The problem is that we're completely devoid of ideas. The problem is that we have failed and failed and failed and not learned from our mistakes, we have not developed as a team and time after time Kidney has shirked the hard calls, has failed to utilise the players at his disposal and has failed to introduce anything approaching a coherent strategy beyond "keeping it tight".

    That's the problem.


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    #712
    Piliger
    Registered Users Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Piliger


    Last year I got up at bloody dawn and traipsed into Capel Street for a kick off around 7.30am ......... to be thoroughly sickened by the embarrassment and shame of this team.

    I'm not going to do it again.


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    #713
    trackguy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,246 ✭✭✭trackguy


    totallegend wrote: »
    Kidney ... has failed to introduce anything approaching a coherent strategy beyond "keeping it tight".

    Kidney's career in a sentence really.


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    #714
    Fishooks12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,318 ✭✭✭Fishooks12


    Piliger wrote: »
    Last year I got up at bloody dawn and traipsed into Capel Street for a kick off around 7.30am ......... to be thoroughly sickened by the embarrassment and shame of this team.

    I'm not going to do it again.

    If Carlsberg did fair weather fans...............


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    #715
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,762 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    totallegend wrote: »
    The problem is not Kiss as the defence coach.

    The problem is that Kiss is also the attack coach. The problem is that there hasn't been a fresh voice in the coaching setup for four years. The problem is that we're completely devoid of ideas. The problem is that we have failed and failed and failed and not learned from our mistakes, we have not developed as a team and time after time Kidney has shirked the hard calls, has failed to utilise the players at his disposal and has failed to introduce anything approaching a coherent strategy beyond "keeping it tight".

    That's the problem.

    The problem is that there were huge similarities between the start of Leinsters 10/11 season and the start of Irelands. Both sides decided to try and implement a new, positive, expansive game plan. Both sides had issues at getting it bedded down. And where as Leinster kept faith and persisted with the game plan to great success, Ireland chickened out and abandoned it leaving them with little to no real direction as to how they want to approach the game.

    That to me was the biggest betrayal in Irish camp. After spending weeks telling us to stick with them, that they were close, that when it clicked it would all be worth it, it was the Irish camp that panicked and dropped a game plan that could have worked without sticking with it or giving it a chance. Whether that was Kidney, the coaching staff as a whole or the IRFU we'll probably never know. But Leinster showed that maintaining belief in a system and sticking with it can reap rewards. Ireland's refusal to do so has left us searching for an "Irish style", whatever that's supposed to mean, for over a year. And we are no closer to understanding what that "style" is.

    In our desperate attempt not to sacrifice a single 6 Nations tournament in the name of development we have allowed 3 to pass us by, plus a RWC. And the likes of Drico will probably finish their international careers with just a single 6 Nations medal and having never made it past the QFs of a World Cup. How our media isn't latching onto that and tearing lumps out of our national set-up is beyond me.....


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    #716
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,886 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    http://www.irishrugby.ie/matchdaytv/?play=media&id=11993

    About 5.50 in Kidney actually starts talking about how they rotated players in the 6N with a view towards planning for this tour.

    How in the name of jesus ****ing christ does no journalist pick up on the massive waft of bull**** emanating from Kidney at this stage. Its gone so far beyond a joke its almost back to being funny. Though that may be more a case of you have to laugh or cry.

    Utterly pathetic from both Kidney and all the journalists present at this press conference.


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    #717
    Piliger
    Registered Users Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Piliger


    Fishooks12 wrote: »
    If Carlsberg did fair weather fans...............

    "Tell it like it is" fans :confused:...


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    #718
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    http://www.irishrugby.ie/matchdaytv/?play=media&id=11993

    About 5.50 in Kidney actually starts talking about how they rotated players in the 6N with a view towards planning for this tour.

    How in the name of jesus ****ing christ does no journalist pick up on the massive waft of bull**** emanating from Kidney at this stage. Its gone so far beyond a joke its almost back to being funny. Though that may be more a case of you have to laugh or cry.

    Utterly pathetic from both Kidney and all the journalists present at this press conference.

    Jesus Christ. Declan Kidney didn't make ONE unforced change during the tournament and now he's claiming he rotated?

    Why are our journalists so pathetic?


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    #719
    rrpc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    http://www.irishrugby.ie/matchdaytv/?play=media&id=11993

    About 5.50 in Kidney actually starts talking about how they rotated players in the 6N with a view towards planning for this tour.

    How in the name of jesus ****ing christ does no journalist pick up on the massive waft of bull**** emanating from Kidney at this stage. Its gone so far beyond a joke its almost back to being funny. Though that may be more a case of you have to laugh or cry.

    Utterly pathetic from both Kidney and all the journalists present at this press conference.
    In that case, what happened to Mike McCarthy and Dave Kearney? Two players who came in to the squad (rotated in :rolleyes:) yet are nowhere near this tour.


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    #720
    rrpc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    totallegend wrote: »
    The problem is not Kiss as the defence coach.

    The problem is that Kiss is also the attack coach. The problem is that there hasn't been a fresh voice in the coaching setup for four years. The problem is that we're completely devoid of ideas. The problem is that we have failed and failed and failed and not learned from our mistakes, we have not developed as a team and time after time Kidney has shirked the hard calls, has failed to utilise the players at his disposal and has failed to introduce anything approaching a coherent strategy beyond "keeping it tight".

    That's the problem.
    We adopted the exact same defensive patttern against Wales in the 6N as we did in the RWC. We stood off them and gave them space to run at us.


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    #721
    snow mad
    Registered Users Posts: 127 ✭✭snow mad


    Fireball07 wrote: »
    Unless your name is Richie Gray :p

    or touthy


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