Ireland Tour to New Zealand 2012 Discussion thread

shuffol

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Forgot about Payne. Would like to see Gilroy get a shot at the 15 shirt more often though. Would develop another string to his bow that he'll probably need with Tommy coming back

Far more likely to be on the wing though, Bowe and Trimble will be in Irish squads and rested more than Payne, they'll still have D'arcy too who'll be given gametime at FB.

CatFromHue

shuffol wrote: »

Far more likely to be on the wing though, Bowe and Trimble will be in Irish squads and rested more than Payne, they'll still have D'arcy too who'll be given gametime at FB.

I wouldn't be surprised if Trimble starts to get into the Ireland squads less and less from next season on.

If Zebo and Dave Kearney continue as they're going now it'll put an awful lot of pressure on him. Then there is Luke Fitz to hopefully come back into the mix too.

prospect

Our greatest players should be allowed bow out gracefully, not continually rolled out into games where they increasingly fall below the standard required (and a standard they previously set themselves).

bilston

Fireball07 wrote: »

I think Earls is fine under a high ball, he's not Kearney but he's not going to **** up either.

Jones has plenty of talent, hopefully he can make a full recovery. Duffy has always been good, unlucky with the players who were ahead of him. Dave Kearney has done well this season, I don't think I'd have a problem with him playing there. Even Hurley, might not be international class in general, but I don't think he'd let us down if he was given a game.

And then we've got young players like Layden and Conway coming through. I wouldn't be too worried.

Some of that's fair, some of it's based on potential and in the case of Hurley I suspect it's just plain optimistic!

I do think Leyden looks a good prospect and there are two others in the U20s with potential at FB, I think Conway is more likely to end up on the wing but the Leinster lads might have a different take on that. Duffy is solid and wouldn't let us down, Jones needs to get a full season behind, actually the guy I'd be most excited about out of all those guys is Dave Kearney but needs experience which backs up the view that it's a surprise that he isn't travelling to NZ.

bilston

shuffol wrote: »

Far more likely to be on the wing though, Bowe and Trimble will be in Irish squads and rested more than Payne, they'll still have D'arcy too who'll be given gametime at FB.

If anything I'd have thought we'd be more likely to move Tommy to FB with Gilroy on the wing.

Gilroy might make a decent FB, he is decent under the high ball, not brillant but better than say Trimble would be and given he's only 21 he can get even better.

As CFH says Trimble may get into the Ireland squads less from next season (although who knows for sure he hasn't let Ireland down this season from memory) however I think Cave might start getting into them more which means we'll need cover at 13 and that might come from Payne which would open up a spot at FB. Hard to know for sure what will happen.

Podge_irl

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Earls defense has been very solid this season? He's improved immeasurably over the course of this season

That may have had something to do with largely playing the same position all season though.

Podge_irl

prospect wrote: »

Our greatest players should be allowed bow out gracefully, not continually rolled out into games where they increasingly fall below the standard required (and a standard they previously set themselves).

Who is this supposed to refer to? The only players near the end of their careers and underperforming are DOC and ROG and one of them has very little intention of doing anything gracefully.

Fishooks12

Podge_irl wrote: »

Who is this supposed to refer to? The only players near the end of their careers and underperforming are DOC and ROG and one of them has very little intention of doing anything gracefully.

I wouldn't blame any of the players (ROG) included for not bowing out when they have an opportunity to make more money. It's a short career after all

I blame Kidney for selecting sub standard players

Cpt_Blackbeard

Fishooks12 wrote: »

I wouldn't blame any of the players (ROG) included for not bowing out when they have an opportunity to make more money. It's a short career after all

I blame Kidney for selecting sub standard players

In fairness, ROG was always going to travel. Despite poor form in his limited showings in the second half of the season, his experience is still a vital asset if needed. My problem with ROG's inclusion is that it caused Madigan to miss out. Having Madigan as our only backup would be too big a risk - we don't need another Jacksonlike meltdown - but he should have travelled and seen gametime from the bench.

The more I think of DOCs inclusion, the more I feel that he is continually chosen for his importance in our defensive structure. He is the best player in the squad at applying the choke tackle and I can see him being one of Kiss' favourites because of it. That said, I don't understand the point of DOC's inclusion in matches where we don't appear to be actively trying to make use of this tackle.

Tox56

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

In fairness, ROG was always going to travel. Despite poor form in his limited showings in the second half of the season, his experience is still a vital asset if needed. My problem with ROG's inclusion is that it caused Madigan to miss out. Having Madigan as our only backup would be too big a risk - we don't need another Jacksonlike meltdown - but he should have travelled and seen gametime from the bench.

The more I think of DOCs inclusion, the more I feel that he is continually chosen for his importance in our defensive structure. He is the best player in the squad at applying the choke tackle and I can see him being one of Kiss' favourites because of it. That said, I don't understand the point of DOC's inclusion in matches where we don't appear to be actively trying to make use of this tackle.

Assuming POC can come (as was at least the case for most of the 6N), including DOC for the choke tackle would mean leaving out Ryan, McCarthy and Tuohy.

Are you honestly telling me all of these players are incapable of learning how to perform a choke tackle? Even if they couldn't, they are surely worth a place for being superior than (or at least as good as) DOC at almost everything else.

That's without even mentioning the fact they are all younger than an ageing DOC, and they are all likely long-term successors. It's a truly mind boggling decision.

Fishooks12

DOC is very good at the old choke tackle, and he packs down the scrum well but it's nothing the superior tuohy couldn't do

yimrsg

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

In fairness, ROG was always going to travel. Despite poor form in his limited showings in the second half of the season, his experience is still a vital asset if needed. My problem with ROG's inclusion is that it caused Madigan to miss out. Having Madigan as our only backup would be too big a risk - we don't need another Jacksonlike meltdown - but he should have travelled and seen gametime from the bench.

The more I think of DOCs inclusion, the more I feel that he is continually chosen for his importance in our defensive structure. He is the best player in the squad at applying the choke tackle and I can see him being one of Kiss' favourites because of it. That said, I don't understand the point of DOC's inclusion in matches where we don't appear to be actively trying to make use of this tackle.

Best, Ferris and Sexton are probably the same as DOC at performing choke tackles. Ferris brought another facet to his play by becoming the defensive blitzer in the 6N, performing BOD's role superbly. Sexton has become a rock in midfield into which many opposition backs and fowards ran aground and Best was a fine pack leader in POC's enforced absence and has carried that form through out the HC and has enhanced his reputation to being possibly the best hooker in Europe. DOC should travel but shouldn't start ahead of Ryan. Talk of DOC as an important cog in our defensive structure is seriously overstating his importance. Those players and others are far more important to Ireland's defensive success than he is.

wp_rathead

Tox56 wrote: »

Assuming POC can come (as was at least the case for most of the 6N), including DOC for the choke tackle would mean leaving out Ryan, McCarthy and Tuohy.

Are you honestly telling me all of these players are incapable of learning how to perform a choke tackle? Even if they couldn't, they are surely worth a place for being superior than (or at least as good as) DOC at almost everything else.

That's without even mentioning the fact they are all younger than an ageing DOC, and they are all likely long-term successors. It's a truly mind boggling decision.

McCarthy and Swifty have been performing the choke tackle since that tactic was a twinkle in Kidneys eye

So Cpt_Blackbeards view that DOC included for his Choke Tackle ability is flawed
alas- the mysterry of DOCs selection continues:D

(could make it a series on the Paranormal channel)

Hagz

If a choke tackle is the only reason you can think for bringing a player, I think it's a clear indication that the player isn't of great value. Personally, i can't see what DOC brings to the international side these days other than his humor round the camp. I wouldn't argue with his inclusion in the squad, but I would argue that starting him is a complete and utter waste of time.

RoundBox11

I really don't want to see DOC start anymore, but at the same time if he does, it's not like he's really rubbish. He's still a fairly good 2nd row, especially when he's in a green jersey. It's just that Ryan and Tuohy deserve it more.

I would question Tuohy's attitude tho.

Tbh, i think Toner's xfactor value would be more valuable than DOC's choke tackle ability. The rest of the Irish pack are good at the choke tackle anyway. But Toners height in the lineout would really put pressure on NZ.
Combining POC and Toner in the lineout with someone like McLaughlin aswell would really be impressive!!

Fishooks12

RoundBox11 wrote: »

I really don't want to see DOC start anymore, but at the same time if he does, it's not like he's really rubbish. He's still a fairly good 2nd row, especially when he's in a green jersey. It's just that Ryan and Tuohy deserve it more.

I would question Tuohy's attitude tho.

Tbh, i think Toner's xfactor value would be more valuable than DOC's choke tackle ability. The rest of the Irish pack are good at the choke tackle anyway. But Toners height in the lineout would really put pressure on NZ.
Combining POC and Toner in the lineout with someone like McLaughlin aswell would really be impressive!!

Why?

Ardillaun

McFadden's pluses over Cave:

1. Familiarity with the Leinster set-up.
2. Place-kicking

Overall, I think Cave is a better centre.

Anyway, my main worry is our front five. They have to be solid in the scrums to give us ANY chance. The second row must do their part as well. Is Toner's scrummaging improving?

porterbelly

RoundBox11 wrote: »

I really don't want to see DOC start anymore, but at the same time if he does, it's not like he's really rubbish. He's still a fairly good 2nd row, especially when he's in a green jersey. It's just that Ryan and Tuohy deserve it more.

I would question Tuohy's attitude tho.

Tbh, i think Toner's xfactor value would be more valuable than DOC's choke tackle ability. The rest of the Irish pack are good at the choke tackle anyway. But Toners height in the lineout would really put pressure on NZ.
Combining POC and Toner in the lineout with someone like McLaughlin aswell would really be impressive!!

If we're bringing DOC for the choke tackle then McCarthy must feel very hard done by. He's the best in the business at it bar none.

GerM

Ardillaun wrote: »

McFadden's pluses over Cave:

1. Familiarity with the Leinster set-up.
2. Place-kicking

Overall, I think Cave is a better centre.

McFadden won't get to kick a ball in anger ahead of Sexton or ROG and, if both were injured, Murray is a capable kicker. Why he is never handed duties for Munster is a mystery to me as he's going to lose the skill soon. Even though McFadden is more familiar, I think Cave would gel a lot more with the Leinster players in terms of style. Really hope we get to see Cave get on the pitch this tour although I think it's unlikely along with Fitzpatrick, Zebo and Sherry.

RoundBox11

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Why?

I think that came out wrong

I would question his attitude based on things he's said and his reaction to not being picked.

I'm sure his attitude in terms of work ethic etc is great

RoundBox11

RoundBox11 wrote: »

I think that came out wrong

I would question his attitude based on things he's said and his reaction to not being picked.

I'm sure his attitude in terms of work ethic etc is great

he's so eager to play for Ireland, and working so hard to get there, that he was more than visibly frustrated by not being selected.

How is that an attitude issue!?

twinytwo

my biggest fear is if something happens to kearney, chances are earls will have to play FB..... which means kidney will play zebo... who couldnt handle a wolfhounds not to mind going up against the ABS... they will eat him for breakfast.

RoundBox11

GerM wrote: »

McFadden won't get to kick a ball in anger ahead of Sexton or ROG and, if both were injured, Murray is a capable kicker. Why he is never handed duties for Munster is a mystery to me as he's going to lose the skill soon. Even though McFadden is more familiar, I think Cave would gel a lot more with the Leinster players in terms of style. Really hope we get to see Cave get on the pitch this tour although I think it's unlikely along with Fitzpatrick, Zebo and Sherry.

I agree more or less. Just wondering, if you don't think Fitzpatrick will play, i presume ur expecting Wilkinson to bench?

Does anyone know if Ross is capable of playing loosehead if Healy was injured during a game (with fitzpatrick on the bench)?

RoundBox11

Deleted User wrote: »

he's so eager to play for Ireland, and working so hard to get there, that he was more than visibly frustrated by not being selected.

How is that an attitude issue!?

I think that it's good that he's annoyed. But if your annoyed in a case like that, you talk to the coach and management about it. You don't write it on twitter. It just makes him look immature.

If he was in the NBA (different sport i know) and he did that he would get fined

twinytwo

twinytwo wrote: »

my biggest fear is if something happens to kearney, chances are earls will have to play FB..... which means kidney will play zebo... who couldnt handle a wolfhounds not to mind going up against the ABS... they will eat him for breakfast.

surely he'd go McFadden 14, Trimble 11 long before that.

Surely.

SURELY??

Fireball07

Deleted User wrote: »

surely he'd go McFadden 14, Trimble 11 long before that.

Surely.

SURELY??

I'd be surprised if he didn't. Kidney seems to like McFadden. Picked him on the wing in the 6N before and choose him at 13 ahead of players more naturally suited to the position.

GerM

RoundBox11 wrote: »

I agree more or less. Just wondering, if you don't think Fitzpatrick will play, i presume ur expecting Wilkinson to bench?

Does anyone know if Ross is capable of playing loosehead if Healy was injured during a game (with fitzpatrick on the bench)?

Is Loughney not replacing Court? If not, Fitzpatrick to the bench but he's not ready for it. He simply doesn't have the match fitness. In the semi final, he was breathing out his arse after 50 minutes and was struggling badly. He only has 3 appearances since returning from a 5 month lay off. Wilkinson has been cut loose entirely, I believe.

Ross appeared once or twice at loosehead when at Quins due to injuries during a game demanding it but can't really play there and has never started there as far as I'm aware.

darragh_haven

Deleted User wrote: »

surely he'd go McFadden 14, Trimble 11 long before that.

Surely.

SURELY??

You have to include the Kidney factor.....logic and reason doesn't go out the window, but is slightly distorted. Surely = flip of a coin:rolleyes:

PhatPiggins

I know, I know we've done the Kidney thing to death but felt obliged to share this:

http://www.kidneyclock.net/

Tomtom364

I dont see any problem with DOC being included in the squad as he is still a very solid player.
Though he shouldnt be starting.

IMO I think Kidney will be looking to go for the Ryan & POC combination if POC is fit.