Ireland Tour to New Zealand 2012 Discussion thread

totallegend

CatFromHue wrote: »

McLaughlin is 5 years older than POM and is only 27. Far too young to be ignored due to his age if you ask me as he's actually coming into his prime. Also most of the time he starts for Leinster he starts at 6.

POM has only played 6 a couple of times this year. I think he looks pretty handy at 8 but I'm still not sure he is as good as people say in the other positions in the back row. I'm not saying I don't think he's good far from it but is he as good as he's being made out?

For me I'd be going with McLaughlin who's been excellent for 3 seasons now and seems to specialize more in the 6 jersey.

I didn't say we should ignore him because of his age, only that POM has more potential...

But I'll tell you one thing, it is a nailed on certainty that if O'Brien is fit and Ferris isn't, the starting backrow against NZ will be 6. O'Mahony 7. O'Brien 8. Heaslip.

And in fairness, when people were calling for O'Mahony to be picked at 7 for Ireland, a lot of people were on here saying he's not a seven, he's a six, so we can't have it every way.

Fishooks12

POM has played most of his games at six and if anything he's not getting the praise he deserves

It's weird, at the start of the season I felt he was being overrated but his performances have improved for Munster as the side has declined. So much so that he's become underrated in a way

padser

totallegend wrote: »

In fairness to McLaughlin, he's been given no chances at international level, but yeah, if we're basing it on potential, it has to be POM. McLaughlin is probably the better player right now, but he's also 6-7 years older...

Plus, there is no way in hell Kidney will start with McLaughlin ahead of POM, but if Henry and O'Brien are both injured, we're going to start running out of back-rowers very quickly. 2010 all over again

I'm sorry - but not picking someone at age 27 because there is someone younger is absolute madness.

I'm fully in favour of looking at younger guys in positions where the incumbent wouldn't be around next world cup (like Darcy, BOD etc) or might not be around next year / two years (like ROG) - but McLoughlin with be 30 at the next WC FFS.

As for the more general point(I'm going to get killed for saying this) - I really don't think POM looked any better this season than D Ryan or Ruddock looked for Leinster last season. Great great first seasons (for all three) but each are 2 / 3 seasons away from hitting their potential. The major difference is that where Leinster had Heaslip, Jennings, SOB and McLoughlin coming back in this year to take back over at Leinster, POM basically had to carry the Munster backrow all season. He has done a smashing job but I wouldn't have him ahead of Heaslip at 8, SOB at 6 or 7 or Locky at 6. (I would however have him on the bench ahead of Locky for his versatility).

Cpt_Blackbeard

Deleted User wrote: »

yes because the difference between POM and McLaughlin is so monsterous that one would see us beating the ABs and the other would see us being beaten convincingly by same.

:rolleyes:

Of course it wouldn't, but there have been a lot of posters calling for Leinster plus a few select others to have a crack at the All Blacks and claiming it is our best chance. This is the perfect opportunity to try it.

WeeBushy

If Ferris isn't fit for the tour my order of preference for flankers goes like this:

1. O'Brien
2. POM
3. Henry
4. McLaughlin

There's not a massive difference between POM, Henry and McLaughlin when they are in their favoured positions so I'd be happy with any combination of our flankers, whoever works best together and gets the most out of the back row as a unit.

molloyjh

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Probably a good idea. A Leinster majority losing convincingly to the All Blacks might finally convince some sections that test rugby is actually a huge step up from the HC. As a bonus, it's one less Munster lad to get broken on Irish duty.

Because, as we all know, coaching has literally nothing to do with a teams performance and so should never be considered a factor. Sure the Leinster players got to where they are because of themselves and themselves alone. Cheika and Schmidt were just along for the ride. Like Deccie is.

Fishooks12

padser wrote: »

I'm sorry - but not picking someone at age 27 because there is someone younger is absolute madness.

It's not if the younger guy has much more potential, which POM undoubtedly does

but McLoughlin with be 30 at the next WC FFS.

McLoughlin is arguably at his peak now. There isn't much to suggest he'll get any better than he currently is over the next four years. In fact he'll probably decline. The likes of POM and Ruddock are on an upward plane and have the potential to be better players than McLoughlin. POM already is IMO

As for the more general point(I'm going to get killed for saying this) - I really don't think POM looked any better this season than D Ryan or Ruddock looked for Leinster last season.

It's true to say that Ruddock and Ryan were good for Leinster last season when called upon. But POM has been Munsters best player by a distance this season. MOTM in 2 Heineken Cup matches and has captained Munster on several occasions

POM is a good step above where Ryan and Ruddock were last year. I really don't see how anyone could think otherwise either, even allowing for the fact that POM has gotten more experience as a result of having a less competition in the back row

Simple fact is he's been one of Munster's most important players this season. Ruddock and Ryan are still merely squad players for Leinster

CatFromHue

Deleted User wrote: »

most of his games were at 6, he's really very good there.

I was only looking at games in this calendar year but when I looked back further I see what you mean.

Games he started at 8: 6
2012: Ospreys (Rabo SF), Ulster, Lanelli, Glasgow
2011: Ospreys, Ospreys

Games he started at 7: 4
2012: Leinster, Treviso, Northampton
2011: Aironi

Games he started at 6: 10
2012: Treviso, Ulster (hec), Castres
2011: Lanelli(hec), Castres, Northampton, Cardiff, Lanelli, Glasgow, Dragons.

Honestly I'm still to be convinced he is "that" good at 6. Again I'm not saying he isn't a good player here but he has a lot of hype around him that can sometimes work against a player.

Whereas when I look at McLaughlin he just tears into his job. He's good in the lineout, his tackle and work rate is excellent, has Captained the team a few times, and when he takes the ball up he does it with power and conviction. He's almost ignored outside Leinster for what ever reason. I could of course have my blue shades on here though.

BIG BAD JOHN

Fishooks12 wrote: »

The opposite will probably be true. We'll be more competitive in the first test but slacken off as Kidney trots out the same team for the 3 tests

I think we have a decent chance of winning the first test, even under kidney, considering the transition NZ are going through and the fact that a lot of their players are out of form or just returning from injury

I hope you're right but my Capricornian pessimism tells me that we'll be on the end of three good hockeyings.

profitius

Its funny how POM gets no credit off some people. Hes been immense for Munster this season despite it being his first season and being shifted around the backrow. He was Munsters best players this season winning numerous MOTM awards and he could potentially turn into a world class player.

Fishooks12

profitius wrote: »

Its funny how POM gets no credit off some people. Hes been immense for Munster this season despite it being his first season and being shifted around the backrow. He was Munsters best players this season winning numerous MOTM awards and he could potentially turn into a world class player.

+1

WeeBushy

Fishooks12 wrote: »

McLoughlin is arguably at his peak now. There isn't much to suggest he'll get any better than he currently is over the next four years. In fact he'll probably decline. The likes of POM and Ruddock are on an upward plane and have the potential to be better players than McLoughlin. POM already is IMO

I would have POM ahead of McLaughlin, but what makes you think McLaughlin is at his peak now? There are areas of his game that have noticably improved over the last couple of seasons, and other areas such as offloading that he himself has talked about as areas he's targeting in training. What makes you think he wont continue to develop?

CatFromHue

profitius wrote: »

Its funny how POM gets no credit off some people. Hes been immense for Munster this season despite it being his first season and being shifted around the backrow. He was Munsters best players this season winning numerous MOTM awards and he could potentially turn into a world class player.

I don't think people aren't giving him credit but we have another player, McLaughlin, who's also been immense this year and has been for the last couple of seasons.

Fishooks12

WeeBushy wrote: »

I would have POM ahead of McLaughlin, but what makes you think McLaughlin is at his peak now? There are areas of his game that have noticably improved over the last couple of seasons, and other areas such as offloading that he himself has talked about as areas he's targeting in training. What makes you think he wont continue to develop?

27 is a yardstick for flankers peak. Not saying he won't get better but history tells us that generally players regress after this age

CatFromHue

Fishooks12 wrote: »

27 is a yardstick for flankers peak. Not saying he won't get better but history tells us that generally players regress after this age

This makes no sense to me!

Fishooks12

CatFromHue wrote: »

This makes no sense to me!

I'm essentially saying 27 is often around the time when a player is at their peak. Obviously not in every case, James Coughlan being a notable exception. But most players tend to have most of their development done around 27/28 and will generally not get much better

desertcircus

profitius wrote: »

Its funny how POM gets no credit off some people. Hes been immense for Munster this season despite it being his first season and being shifted around the backrow. He was Munsters best players this season winning numerous MOTM awards and he could potentially turn into a world class player.

I don't think there's anyone giving him no credit; they're simply arguing that Locky's a better option.

shuffol

There's very little between Mclaughlin and POM in terms of performance levels but to me POM is a better player and undoubtably has more potential. Mclaughlin is very comfortable in the Leinster side at the minute, he goes out onto the pitch with a job to perform and does it to a very high standard. He's a vital cog in the Leinster wheel where there's a defined gameplan and philosophy. Ireland is very different and I doubt he'd thrive to the same extent in a green shirt even though he'll have the same backrow colleagues.

profitius

desertcircus wrote: »

I don't think there's anyone giving him no credit; they're simply arguing that Locky's a better option.

If POM was playing for Leinster people would have different opinions.

Fishooks12

profitius wrote: »

If POM was playing for Leinster people would have different opinions.

True, the fact that POM is playing in a team not playing well isn't helping peoples views on him

matthew8

I would have Henry ahead of both POM and McLaughlin. If POC and Ferris are out and Healy's not, this is the pack I'd like to see:
1. Healy
2. Best
3. Ross
4. Ryan
5. Tuohy
6. O'Brien
7. Henry
8. Heaslip

Fishooks12

matthew8 wrote: »

I would have Henry ahead of both POM and McLaughlin. If POC and Ferris are out and Healy's not, this is the pack I'd like to see:
1. Healy
2. Best
3. Ross
4. Ryan
5. Tuohy
6. O'Brien
7. Henry
8. Heaslip

I don't see the point in moving SOB now that it's become apparent that he's our best 7

Banbridgeman

If ferris and Henry are out then it's logical to start McLaughlin considering the sync he'd have with Heaslip and O'Brien. Besides I think that while in a couple of ML games POM has been very good, McLaughlin has performed to a higher standard and more regularly in HC games at 6.

Banbridgeman

profitius wrote: »

desertcircus wrote: »

I don't think there's anyone giving him no credit; they're simply arguing that Locky's a better option.

If POM was playing for Leinster people would have different opinions.

Why is that? Most people down my way think McLaughlin is the best 6 after ferris.

Fishooks12

Banbridgeman wrote: »

If ferris and Henry are out then it's logical to start McLaughlin considering the sync he'd have with Heaslip and O'Brien. Besides I think that while in a couple of ML games POM has been very good, McLaughlin has performed to a higher standard and more regularly in HC games at 6.

How can you possibly state that? POM was Munsters best player in nearly every game in this years HC as well as being fantastic in different positions in the magners. McGlaughlin didn't even start the semi for Leinster (although he was supposedly carrying a knock)

I've great time for McGlaughlin but people seem to be using his brilliant form as a stick for a bit of POM bashing. Not everyone btw, I don't mind anyone thinking that Locky is a better player but coming out with stuff like "POM has only been very good in a few ML games" is mad

matthew8

Fishooks12 wrote: »

I don't see the point in moving SOB now that it's become apparent that he's our best 7

To be honest I think he's our best backrower full stop. He can play both to a high standard, as can Chris Henry imo.

Fishooks12

Banbridgeman wrote: »

Why is that? Most people down my way think McLaughlin is the best 6 after ferris.

Sean O Brien is our best six after Ferris

clsmooth

Fishooks12 wrote: »

27 is a yardstick for flankers peak. Not saying he won't get better but history tells us that generally players regress after this age

Yep of course. How did David Wallace do at RWC2003? And how did he do after?

mfceiling

Was secretly delighted when the news came out that fez might not travel.

The man needs a break to try and regain any sort of normality in his knee.

He was noticeably limping in the Edinburgh game and in the final.

Would love to see him fresh and rested for next seasons hardship.

Fishooks12

clsmooth wrote: »

Yep of course. How did David Wallace do at RWC2003? And how did he do after?

Wallace was injured for the 2003 world cup.. I'm not sure what you're implying, are you being sarcastic?

If you look at my post I said there were exceptions but the simple fact is that most players reach their peak around 27/28.