Ireland Tour to New Zealand 2012 Discussion thread

WeeBushy

Fishooks12 wrote: »

I'm essentially saying 27 is often around the time when a player is at their peak. Obviously not in every case, James Coughlan being a notable exception. But most players tend to have most of their development done around 27/28 and will generally not get much better

I'm not sure I'd go along with that, but even if that was the case - McLaughlin spent several years out injured so isn't a typical flanker. I would say he's a year or two younger in terms of development than his age suggests. Anyways, its not really important to this tour if he's reached his peak or not so I'll leave it there.

I hope POM doesn't suffer with his versatility, he's payed all over the backrow and while at a young age gametime anywhere on the pitch is good for development, I would hope he starts to focus more on one position.

JRant

We could however be completly mad and try a backrow of 6:Lockie 7: Henry 8: POM in one of the tests.
Maybe even start a game with the 2 best 2nd rowers in the country at the moment ( Touhy & Ryan).
We could of also brought a smashing young out-half, with a step, pass and eye for a try, and given him some invaluable experience.
That kinda stuff though would be off the wall thinking and has no place near this Irish set-up!

Fishooks12

WeeBushy wrote: »

I'm not sure I'd go along with that, but even if that was the case - McLaughlin spent several years out injured so isn't a typical flanker. I would say he's a year or two younger in terms of development than his age suggests. Anyways, its not really important to this tour if he's reached his peak or not so I'll leave it there.

I hope POM doesn't suffer with his versatility, he's payed all over the backrow and while at a young age gametime anywhere on the pitch is good for development, I would hope he starts to focus more on one position.

When would you say most players reach their peak and stop developing

It's not that far fetched to say that most players would be starting to climb down from their peak by 30

Of course there is exceptions though

irishbucsfan

POM isn't ready for the Kiwi back row.

I wouldn't start McLaughlin either though.

I'd have SOB, Henry, Heaslip. Based on form this season and based on based on the styles of the players. I think that would be the best use of our resources.


Of course Kidney will pick POM though, Chris Henrys inability to become a Cork native between now and the first test will certainly count against him.

CatFromHue

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Of course Kidney will pick POM though, Chris Henrys inability to become a Cork native between now and the first test will certainly count against him.

Isn't there some big doubts over Henry's fitness though?

If himself and SOB are ruled out, which is a possibility, there will be two touring spots and one starting spot to be filled.

Fishooks12

Jesus if SOB, Fez and henry are ruled out we'll be in some trouble

6. LOCKY
7. POM
8. Heaslip

We'd have little choice but to roll out that back row three games in a row

clsmooth

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Wallace was injured for the 2003 world cup.. I'm not sure what you're implying, are you being sarcastic?

If you look at my post I said there were exceptions but the simple fact is that most players reach their peak around 27/28.

He wasn't injured his next 8 years were pretty good.

It's a ridiculous argument to leave out a form 27 year old as he's too old! And that he won't get any better and will start to go downhill from here. POM is a great prospect but hugely over rated at this current moment. I have high hopes for him but he's got a lot of work to go. I can see the reason for not bringing Jennings with this argument (putting aside the fact he's probably not up to it) but a 27yr old! Why wouldn't Locky get better playing alongside the likes of SOB, Heaslip and Thorn?

JRant

irishbucsfan wrote: »

POM isn't ready for the Kiwi back row.

I wouldn't start McLaughlin either though.

I'd have SOB, Henry, Heaslip. Based on form this season and based on based on the styles of the players. I think that would be the best use of our resources.


Of course Kidney will pick POM though, Chris Henrys inability to become a Cork native between now and the first test will certainly count against him.

To be honest I think all three of them deserve at least one start this tour to reward their form. Sure they mightn't be ready but ya never know.

irishbucsfan

CatFromHue wrote: »

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Of course Kidney will pick POM though, Chris Henrys inability to become a Cork native between now and the first test will certainly count against him.

Isn't there some big doubts over Henry's fitness though?

If himself and SOB are ruled out, which is a possibility, there will be two touring spots and one starting spot to be filled.

Yeah its possible both will travel but they said SOBs surgery is similar to BODs so I'd imagibe he'll play?

Henry will hopefully be back to fitness. If not I'd pick POM over KMcL.

With both out... KMcL, POM, Heaslip!?

Samich

Why oh why in the name of fack is he bringing O Connell, let him have a rest ffs. He has a lions tour to make next summer too. Give someone else a chance.

Fishooks12

clsmooth wrote: »

He wasn't injured

Wallace was riddled with injury around 2003/04.

It's a ridiculous argument to leave out a form 27 year old as he's too old!

It is, but that's not my argument. i'd be in favor of starting him if he were good enough. I just think POM is playing better rugby and has scope to be a world class player

And that he won't get any better and will start to go downhill from here.

I never said he'll go downhill straight away. I'd imagine he'll continue to play at this standard for another 2 or 3 years. But I'd be very surprised if he added more to his game in that time. POM on the other hand will more than likely be even better in 2 or 3 years

POM is a great prospect but hugely over rated at this current moment.

If anything POM is being underrated atm

Why wouldn't Locky get better playing alongside the likes of SOB, Heaslip and Thorn?

Because all logic points to the fact that the vast majority of players do most of their developing between 22 and 27

Now obviously there's exceptions to the rule and Locky might be one of them but they're very rare


I'd like to add too that I'd have no problem with Locky playing in NZ. He deserves it after a good year. But if I had to pick between himself and POM there would only be one winner

Fishooks12

As my research is showing me, the term "peak" is very complex.

Generally in terms of rugby, especially at upper levels, differing aspects come to play.

Anecdotal evidence suggests the following:

Young men are generally at their natural peak physical around 24. From there, it is additional effort that maintains "peak" fitness. The natural aging process affects both the ability to heal and flexibility.

Rugby players are at their "rugby" (experience and the maturity to effectively use that experience) peak is around 28. This assumes while by the time he is 18 he has the fundamentals of rugby down (school age rugby), he has played competitive club side rugby for about ten years.

From a study on rugby player development

molloyjh

Fishooks12 wrote: »

I've great time for McGlaughlin but people seem to be using his brilliant form as a stick for a bit of POM bashing.

Would you stop. No one is "bashing" POM. A few people have a slightly different opinion than you do about who is better, him or Locky. Saying Locky is better does not say anything negative about POM. I think you're getting a bit precious about it.

Personally, while I'm a huge fan of Locky, I'd have POM just ahead of him. I'd like to see both have a go to see them at that level though. With SOB and Ferris not guaranteed to travel there could well be the scope to test both out.

Fishooks12

molloyjh wrote: »

Would you stop. No one is "bashing" POM. A few people have a slightly different opinion than you do about who is better, him or Locky. Saying Locky is better does not say anything negative about POM. I think you're getting a bit precious about it.

Personally, while I'm a huge fan of Locky, I'd have POM just ahead of him. I'd like to see both have a go to see them at that level though. With SOB and Ferris not guaranteed to travel there could well be the scope to test both out.

I've no problem with anyone saying that, I don't think there's much between them myself

I responding to a poster who said POM was only good in "a couple of magners league games", if someone said the same about Locky Leinster fans would be rightfully peeved too

That's what I think is ridiculous

No problem with anyone thinking Locky is better

Podge_irl

Really don't understand the comments on Ferris "needing a break". He probably plays the least amount of rugby of any of the top names. I don't think we'll ever see him at full fitness again and its only a matter of time before he has to retire unfortunately.

Podge_irl

I think Locky is currently a better 6 then POM, though they are fairly different players. That said, I don't really think Locky has the necessary physicality to really bring his best game to the international level. I would be far more comfortable with POM at 6 if he had settled on that position and stayed there for most of the season. He has been moved around a bit much by Munster for my liking.

twinytwo

thomond2006 wrote: »

Ferris hasn't been himself since the quarter final, he's better off sitting out the tour and coming back to pre season more fresh.

If McLaughlin can play as well against NZ as he did in the HEC final, Ireland won't miss Ferris that much.

if we play the same ****e we did in the six nations we will..... that being said id much rather have him for the lions that this tour

irishbucsfan

I think Locky is a better 6 than POM. For sure.

Although if SOB was fit and Henry and Ferris weren't I'd have POM over Locky at 7 with SOB at 6 as I think that's the best combination.

twinytwo

Podge_irl wrote: »

I think Locky is currently a better 6 then POM, though they are fairly different players. That said, I don't really think Locky has the necessary physicality to really bring his best game to the international level. I would be far more comfortable with POM at 6 if he had settled on that position and stayed there for most of the season. He has been moved around a bit much by Munster for my liking.

this season was a joke for our backrow... hopefully next season they will play him in one position and leave him there.

totallegend

Just a question, is there anyone who thinks that Kidney won't pick POM if either Ferris or O'Brien are unavailable?

[point of order; David Wallace was fit for the 2003 World Cup, he just wasn't picked]

Fishooks12

totallegend wrote: »

Just a question, is there anyone who thinks that Kidney won't pick POM if either Ferris or O'Brien are unavailable?

[point of order; David Wallace was fit for the 2003 World Cup, he just wasn't picked]

Reason he wasn't picked was because of the bad luck he'd had in relation to injuries around that time

totallegend

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Reason he wasn't picked was

That's speculation but

Fishooks12 wrote: »

because of the bad luck he'd had in relation to injuries around that time

he did have a lot of injuries that year in fairness.

Then again, the backrows at that RWC were Costello, Miller, Quinlan, Gleeson, Foley and Easterby. I don't think Wallace was that far ahead of any of them that his non-selection was a travesty.

Fishooks12

totallegend wrote: »

That's speculation but

he did have a lot of injuries that year in fairness.

Then again, the backrows at that RWC were Costello, Miller, Quinlan, Gleeson, Foley and Easterby. I don't think Wallace was that far ahead of any of them that his non-selection was a travesty.

Ya I'd agree! Not even sure how we got talking about 2003 Wallace tbh!

totallegend

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Ya I'd agree! Not even sure how we got talking about 2003 Wallace tbh!

This is so clearly relevant to the McLaughlin/POM debate!

dtpc191991

Fishooks12 wrote: »

When would you say most players reach their peak and stop developing

It's not that far fetched to say that most players would be starting to climb down from their peak by 30

Of course there is exceptions though

Most players tend to peak from about 26-31 and then start to drop off after that.

Fishooks12

dtpc191991 wrote: »

Most players tend to peak from about 26-31 and then start to drop off after that.

I'd say they'd have most of their progression done by 28/29 but sustain that level for another 2 or 3 years in some cases, longer in others

It's rare that a player gets noticeably better after the 30 mark

Coburger

Hey, does anyone know if Sky will be the only one showing the games against New Zealand? highlights on TG4 or RTE?

Clegg

Irish Times reporting that Ferris is a major doubt for the tour now. He has a calf injury apparently. I know this was discussed yesterday but the Times are saying it now too.

Leaves us in a tough position because without Ferris, SOB becomes our best blindside as well as our best openside. And obviously he can't play both positions.

So that leaves us with a possible backrow of

SOB
POM/Henry
Heaslip

POM/Mc Loughlin
SOB
Heaslip

totallegend

Coburger wrote: »

Hey, does anyone know if Sky will be the only one showing the games against New Zealand? highlights on TG4 or RTE?

Sky only afaik

Skid

Stephen Ferris is officially out, Kevin McLaughlin is in

Leinster back rower Kevin McLaughlin has been called into the Ireland squad to tour New Zealand next month. He replaces the injured Stephen Ferris (calf).

Kevin McLaughlin narrowly missed out on selection for the original 29-man squad named earlier this week, but steps up into the touring party in place of Stephen Ferris, who has been ruled out due to a calf injury sustained in the Heineken Cup final.

http://www.irishrugby.ie/ireland/26578.php