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Ireland Tour to New Zealand 2012 Discussion thread

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    #872
    Fishooks12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,318 ✭✭✭Fishooks12


    Fez out will do him no harm in the long run. Good rest over the summer so hopefully he can get more involved next year and make a push for the Lions. 3 games of Kidney ball against the all blacks would do him no good although I'm sure he's sickened to be missing the tour.

    Well deserved call up of Locky too


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    #873
    Quint2010
    Registered Users Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭Quint2010


    I wonder who will start at 6 now? Of course it now gives the opportunity for Deccie to shoehorn another Munster player into the starting 8 with POM being given the nod. The more romantic of us would start the Heineken Cup winning back row ie players picked on form with Ryan and Touhy at second row (if POC isnt fit). DOC however will start at 4 whatever happens though.


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    #874
    Tox56
    Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    If DOC is going to start I would suggest Kidney might go with Ryan at 6


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    #875
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    O'Mahony to start at 6 I reckon, SOB at 7 and Heaslip at 8.


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    #876
    totallegend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,234 ✭✭✭totallegend


    thomond2006 wrote: »
    O'Mahony to start at 6 I reckon, SOB at 7 and Heaslip at 8.

    This is 100% what will happen.


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    #877
    Fishooks12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,318 ✭✭✭Fishooks12


    Quint2010 wrote: »
    I wonder who will start at 6 now? Of course it now gives the opportunity for Deccie to shoehorn another Munster player into the starting 8 with POM being given the nod. The more romantic of us would start the Heineken Cup winning back row ie players picked on form with Ryan and Touhy at second row (if POC isnt fit). DOC however will start at 4 whatever happens though.

    POM is on form too


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    #878
    Cpt_Blackbeard
    Registered Users Posts: 2,456 ✭✭✭Cpt_Blackbeard


    Fishooks12 wrote: »
    POM is on form too

    Nah. Haven't you heard? He is only a member of the Irish squad due to the ongoing Munster conspiracy. :rolleyes:


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    #879
    Quint2010
    Registered Users Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭Quint2010


    Fishooks12 wrote: »
    POM is on form too

    POM will get smashed down in NZ. He isn't physical enough for international rugby yet. I would fear for him down there. The back row should now be an all Leinster one. They know each others games and play well as a unit.


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    #880
    Tox56
    Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    Quint2010 wrote: »
    Fishooks12 wrote: »
    POM is on form too

    POM will get smashed down in NZ. He isn't physical enough for international rugby yet. I would fear for him down there. The back row should now be an all Leinster one. They know each others games and play well as a unit.

    I completely disagree, McLaughlin has very little chance of a prolonged international career, whereas POM will be with Ireland hopefully the next 10 years.

    He has proved more than capable at every level he has played, he won't be smashed at all imo.


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    #881
    Quint2010
    Registered Users Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭Quint2010


    Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »
    Nah. Haven't you heard? He is only a member of the Irish squad due to the ongoing Munster conspiracy. :rolleyes:

    Kidney is a Munster man who has shown himself to be loyal to Munster players playing poorly. DOC wouldn't even get into a poor Munster starting 15 yet he is first on the teamsheet for Uncle Deccie. ROG is the same-and don't even get me started on the selection of Zebo over a much more in form,far better coached and far better all round player in David Kearney. Watch him call up TOL too should Boss be ruled out. It's pathetic really. Didn't he mention Dave Kilcoyne at the press conference this week. Dave Kilcoyne ffs??? And you reckon there isn't a Munster conspiracy???


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    #882
    darragh_haven
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,433 ✭✭✭darragh_haven


    Quint2010 wrote: »
    POM will get smashed down in NZ. He isn't physical enough for international rugby yet. I would fear for him down there. The back row should now be an all Leinster one. They know each others games and play well as a unit.

    Ah here now Quint, we all have our Bias views on things, But POM deserves his start, and saying he doesn't have the physicality for international rugby... tut tut tut.
    I agree with you on some munster player like TOL, Zebo etc, but stall the ball at POM


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    #883
    Hagz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,257 ✭✭✭Hagz


    Quint2010 wrote: »
    Kidney is a Munster man who has shown himself to be loyal to Munster players playing poorly. DOC wouldn't even get into a poor Munster starting 15 yet he is first on the teamsheet for Uncle Deccie. ROG is the same-and don't even get me started on the selection of Zebo over a much more in form,far better coached and far better all round player in David Kearney. Watch him call up TOL too should Boss be ruled out. It's pathetic really. Didn't he mention Dave Kilcoyne at the press conference this week. Dave Kilcoyne ffs??? And you reckon there isn't a Munster conspiracy???

    1. In fairness, who's he gonna take instead of DOC. I'm happy with him taking DOC as long as he doesn't start him.

    2. He was never gonna leave ROG behind. What would happen if Sexton became injured. He'd have to fly over ROG. I still believe he should've taken Madigan, but he couldn't leave behind ROG

    3. The Zebo one does look the most suspicious, but with 12 tries in 23 games he's the highest try scoring winger in Ireland this season. He's not as complete a player as Kearney and Gilroy, but he always looks dangerous in attack, and he could develop his game and learn a lot form this tour.

    4. I firmly believe he'd call up Marshall if Boss became injured, but we won't know that until it happens.

    5. And when he mentioned Kilcoyne, he also mentioned Jack McGrath and Paddy McAllister. He was explaining why he had fringe players training with the team when he said it as well.

    As for the whole Munster conspiracy, I genuinely believe that Kidney is more likely to pick a Munster player who's had an impressive rather than a player from any of the other 3 provinces.


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    #884
    Quint2010
    Registered Users Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭Quint2010


    darragh_haven wrote: »
    Ah here now Quint, we all have our Bias views on things, But POM deserves his start, and saying he doesn't have the physicality for international rugby... tut tut tut.
    I agree with you on some munster player like TOL, Zebo etc, but stall the ball at POM


    Not saying he isn't a good player with bags of potential. He is. But he always seems to pick up some sort of injury during a match and I just think Ireland would be better served picking an all Leinster back row.


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    #885
    darragh_haven
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,433 ✭✭✭darragh_haven


    Quint2010 wrote: »
    Not saying he isn't a good player with bags of potential. He is. But he always seems to pick up some sort of injury during a match and I just think Ireland would be better served picking an all Leinster back row.
    :rolleyes:He is a good player, and i think he has more than just potential. He has backed it up with constant impressive performances.


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    #886
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    Wont SOB miss out due to surgery?


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    #887
    Clegg
    Registered Users Posts: 17,169 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    darragh_haven wrote: »
    :rolleyes:He is a good player, and i think he has more than just potential. He has backed it up with constant impressive performances.
    Except in the most important game of his Munster career where Chris Henry made him his plaything.

    POM has a lot of potential and will win more Ireland caps in the future. But right now I fear what will happen to him if he plays against New Zealand. The same can be said about a lot of our players.

    We really aren't in great shape going into this test series.


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    #888
    CIARAN_BOYLE
    Registered Users Posts: 14,599 ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    .ak wrote: »
    Wont SOB miss out due to surgery?
    its a minor operation similar to BODs recent one


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    #889
    darragh_haven
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,433 ✭✭✭darragh_haven


    Clegg wrote: »
    Except in the most important game of his Munster career where Chris Henry made him his plaything.

    POM has a lot of potential and will win more Ireland caps in the future. But right now I fear what will happen to him if he plays against New Zealand. The same can be said about a lot of our players.

    We really aren't in great shape going into this test series.

    I don't know how you can say that, that game was the definition of a game of 2 halves. Henry got the better of him in the first half, but was not his "play thing" for the game


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    #890
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    Oh, a keyhole job? Interesting.

    My fear is Locky will get the utility forward spot and be benched for most of it, which in my opinion is the wrong way to use him. I'd like to see him used as an abrasive forward, getting under players skin, with Pom being unleashed in the second half of a game.


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    #891
    Clegg
    Registered Users Posts: 17,169 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    Things changed in the second half. Munster contested the breakdown much more efficiently and Ulster were more than happy to defend instead.

    I'm a fan of POM but he was largely ineffectual for the entire game.


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    #892
    KJY
    Registered Users Posts: 240 ✭✭KJY


    Quint2010 wrote: »
    I wonder who will start at 6 now? Of course it now gives the opportunity for Deccie to shoehorn another Munster player into the starting 8 with POM being given the nod. The more romantic of us would start the Heineken Cup winning back row ie players picked on form with Ryan and Touhy at second row (if POC isnt fit). DOC however will start at 4 whatever happens though.

    What and POM playing his socks off when Munster were playing diabolical against Ospreys isn't considered in form?


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    #893
    Clegg
    Registered Users Posts: 17,169 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    POM also should have been sinbinned for being a cynical chancer during the Ospreys game.

    We don't need a repeat of the Heaslip debacle.


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    #894
    Kilkenny14
    Registered Users Posts: 579 ✭✭✭Kilkenny14


    I would like to see Peter O'Mahony given a chance in part of the matches, but he has to tackle properly; going with your head is not a good idea against the likes of Read and Ma'Nonu.


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    #895
    Fishooks12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,318 ✭✭✭Fishooks12


    Tox56 wrote: »
    I completely disagree, McLaughlin has very little chance of a prolonged international career, whereas POM will be with Ireland hopefully the next 10 years.

    He has proved more than capable at every level he has played, he won't be smashed at all imo.

    +1

    Has POM ever been smashed in his career to date?

    These lazy summations on a player are ridiculous


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    #896
    Fishooks12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,318 ✭✭✭Fishooks12


    Clegg wrote: »
    Except in the most important game of his Munster career where Chris Henry made him his plaything.

    POM has a lot of potential and will win more Ireland caps in the future. But right now I fear what will happen to him if he plays against New Zealand. The same can be said about a lot of our players.

    We really aren't in great shape going into this test series.

    What game were you watching?

    Do you realise backrow forwards aren't pitted against each other in some sort of head to head dual?

    POM was one of the few decent Munster players that day


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    #897
    bilston
    Registered Users Posts: 17,802 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    Fishooks12 wrote: »
    What game were you watching?

    Do you realise backrow forwards aren't pitted against each other in some sort of head to head dual?

    POM was one of the few decent Munster players that day

    O'Mahony played quite well but Henry was a standout performer, so whether they were in direct competition or not on the basis of that game alone Henry should get the nod. But obviously that's a bit simplistic and Kidney can't be basing his selections on one game, and anyway we know he won't because if he did he would hardly have picked Zebo in the squad over Gilroy who left the Munster flyer in his wake that day.

    As for the back row I'm surprised to see so many people suggesting a back row with SOB at 7. With Ferris out surely SOB should be moving straight to B/S? Be realistic, McLaughlin wasn't in the original party so it's not likely he's going to be in the starting XV or even bench ahead of O'Mahony or Henry, if that was the case he'd have been picked ahead of them in the first place.

    My back row would be:

    6) O'Brien
    7) Henry/O'Mahony (completely undecided, POM has more potential but maybe Henry gets the nod at this moment in time for the season he's had and for experience...albeit not at test level...)
    8) Heaslip

    Bench - either Henry or O'Mahony.


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    #898
    Fishooks12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,318 ✭✭✭Fishooks12


    bilston wrote: »
    O'Mahony played quite well but Henry was a standout performer, so whether they were in direct competition or not on the basis of that game alone Henry should get the nod. But obviously that's a bit simplistic

    Sensible response. It's easy to argue that Henry was much more effective than his opposite number that day (Tommy O Donnell) , but the notion that he destroyed POM in some sort of personal dual is a bit mad

    POM had a good game all things considered. Henry was brilliant that day though.

    BTW if it was a straight call for a starting 7 go with Henry. But second guessing Kidney it's obvious it's the 6 shirt up for grabs


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    #899
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    bilston wrote: »
    O'Mahony played quite well but Henry was a standout performer, so whether they were in direct competition or not on the basis of that game alone Henry should get the nod. But obviously that's a bit simplistic and Kidney can't be basing his selections on one game, and anyway we know he won't because if he did he would hardly have picked Zebo in the squad over Gilroy who left the Munster flyer in his wake that day.

    As for the back row I'm surprised to see so many people suggesting a back row with SOB at 7. With Ferris out surely SOB should be moving straight to B/S? Be realistic, McLaughlin wasn't in the original party so it's not likely he's going to be in the starting XV or even bench ahead of O'Mahony or Henry, if that was the case he'd have been picked ahead of them in the first place.

    My back row would be:

    6) O'Brien
    7) Henry/O'Mahony (completely undecided, POM has more potential but maybe Henry gets the nod at this moment in time for the season he's had and for experience...albeit not at test level...)
    8) Heaslip

    Bench - either Henry or O'Mahony.

    Whilst I'd like SOB at 6, it's clear the Irish management don't rate him there. His fetching skills have become impressive, and I can't see Henry or POM getting over a player for longer than a milisecond with the AB backrow in action. Realistically they'll start him at 7, and to put a bit of balance in there we'll need a range-y blindside. I think I'd like POM there because of how he plays suits the current setup with Ireland - that fighty style of play that should've died years ago. That's how we're going to play under Kidders, so for the next year we may as well deal with it and play to our supposed 'strengths'.

    I think Locky will fit on the bench. He'll be a bit of a Ryan-esque impact sub I feel, wanting to impress.


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    #900
    gally74
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,997 ✭✭✭gally74


    Think Muldoon deserves to go could cover 6


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    #901
    Sindri
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,059 ✭✭✭Sindri


    New Zealand Back Row | Irish Back Row

    Sam Cane | Jamie Heaslip

    Brad Shields | Sean O' Brien

    Victor Vito | Peter O' Mahony

    Kieran Read | Chris Henry
    Richie McCaw | Kevin McLaughlin

    Luke Whitelock | John Muldoon

    Adam Thomson | ..................


    Average Age of New Zealand Back Row | Average Age of Irish Back Row
    26.3 | 26.3
    Total Age of New Zealand Back Row | Total Age of Irish Back Row
    158 | 158
    Average No. of Caps of New Zealand Back Row | Average No. of Caps of Irish Back Row
    24.86 | 12.83
    Total No. of Caps of New Zealand Back Row | Total No. of Caps of Irish Back Row
    174 | 77
    Average Weight of New Zealand Back Row | Average Weight of Irish Back Row
    107.6kg | 107.3kg
    Total Weight of New Zealand Back Row | Total Weight of Irish Back Row
    753kg | 644kg
    Average Height of New Zealand Back Row | Average Height of Irish Back Row
    191cm | 190cm


    In reality New Zealand are blooding 3 players in the Back Row, Sam Cane, Adam Shields and Luke Whitelock, all of them 21 .Whitelock comes from a family of rugby players; his brother being Sam Whitelock. 103 of those New Zealand caps are Richie McCaw's alone.

    McCaw, Thomson, Vito and Read are the established players. Apart from McCaw the New Zealand Back Row has weight and height advantages, Adam Thomson at 196cm being the tallest as well as the heaviest along with Vito.


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