Ireland Tour to New Zealand 2012 Discussion thread

dregin

CatFromHue wrote: »

how do you know?

It's not on the IRFU website nor their Twitter page.

http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/irish-international/2012/0528/322723-kidney-to-reveal-ireland-squad-on-tuesday/

totallegend

Part of me is almost glad that we're picking up these injuries as it will force DK into making some changes to the squad at least.

Then part of me thinks that in the press conference in the lead up to the Autumn Internationals, we'll have Kidney claiming credit for building a squad and rotating during the summer as though it's all part of the masterplan and that fills me with rage

Then another part of me thinks that Kidney is probably delighted to have a few injuries as his fall back excuse for a hiding in NZ. No doubt we'll hear more about how the foreigners in the game are holding the national team back etc etc

Then I think about Kidney in general, what he's done to the national team, how we'll see Sexton at 12 against the All Blacks and I get sad. I'm going to bed.

CatFromHue

totallegend wrote: »

Part of me is almost glad that we're picking up these injuries as it will force DK into making some changes to the squad at least.

Then part of me thinks that in the press conference in the lead up to the Autumn Internationals, we'll have Kidney claiming credit for building a squad and rotating during the summer as though it's all part of the masterplan and that fills me with rage

Then another part of me thinks that Kidney is probably delighted to have a few injuries as his fall back excuse for a hiding in NZ. No doubt we'll hear more about how the foreigners in the game are holding the national team back etc etc

Then I think about Kidney in general, what he's done to the national team, how we'll see Sexton at 12 against the All Blacks and I get sad. I'm going to bed.

I think you're thinking about Kidney too much!

bilston

totallegend wrote: »

Part of me is almost glad that we're picking up these injuries as it will force DK into making some changes to the squad at least.

I'm all for trying new players but if all the injuries turn out for the worse we'll be playing the ABs with effectively a second choice pack with the exception of Best, Ryan and Heaslip that's not good for anyone.

porterbelly

Hagz wrote: »

I believe McLoughlin has been a better blindside than Muldoon and O'Mahony yes, but not Ferris. But I would be perfectly fine to see POM play as he has a lot of untapped potential. I would not however be happy to see Muldoon start ahead of him, as I think he's better than Muldoon. It is of course all my opinion.

McLaughlin is a fine player in his own right, but he doesn't have the physicality to make the step up imo.

Muldoon has had a cracking season, he has outplayed players like Robshaw home and away in the Heineken Cup

He's a warrior who relishes the combat and I think it's a big miss that he hasn't been brought to NZ. He's just the type of player we need in Ferris absence,someone who'll go to war and stand up physically to the NZ back row. In no way am I dismissing McLaughlin, but if I was in Muldoon's shoes I'd be very disallusioned and be wondering what I'd have to do to break into the squad.

Fishooks12

bilston wrote: »

I'm all for trying new players but if all the injuries turn out for the worse we'll be playing the ABs with effectively a second choice pack with the exception of Best, Ryan and Heaslip that's not good for anyone.

Healy and Ross haven't been ruled out either. Healy will probably be fit

Other than that we'll still have a decent back row and our second row will arguably improve if Tuohy starts

Tox56

porterbelly wrote: »

Hagz wrote: »

I believe McLoughlin has been a better blindside than Muldoon and O'Mahony yes, but not Ferris. But I would be perfectly fine to see POM play as he has a lot of untapped potential. I would not however be happy to see Muldoon start ahead of him, as I think he's better than Muldoon. It is of course all my opinion.

McLaughlin is a fine player in his own right, but he doesn't have the physicality to make the step up imo.

Muldoon has had a cracking season, he has outplayed players like Robshaw home and away in the Heineken Cup

He's a warrior who relishes the combat and I think it's a big miss that he hasn't been brought to NZ. He's just the type of player we need in Ferris absence,someone who'll go to war and stand up physically to the NZ back row. In no way am I dismissing McLaughlin, but if I was in Muldoon's shoes I'd be very disallusioned and be wondering what I'd have to do to break into the squad.

If we are going to go without POC, McLaughlin's expertise in the lineout will have worked in his favour, as would his familarity with the Leinster backrow if he was called upon at short notice. He doesn't carry destructively but does carry intelligently. Muldoon has his chance against the Baa Baa's, but you can see the reasoning behind bringing McLaughlin.

bilston

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Healy and Ross haven't been ruled out either. Healy will probably be fit

Other than that we'll still have a decent back row and our second row will arguably improve if Tuohy starts

I know they haven't been ruled out that's why I said IF the worst happens on the injury front although someone told me Healy would probably be fit for thw Pro 12 final so who knows.

If they do travel how fit will they be? I'd be bringing more than 29 players to NZ to compensate for the fact there will be a few injury doubts.

Our second row won't be improved if Tuohy starts in place of an injured O'Connell and our back row minus Ferris just isn't as good despite the love in here amongst Leinster fans for McLaughlin.

WeeBushy

porterbelly wrote: »

McLaughlin is a fine player in his own right, but he doesn't have the physicality to make the step up imo.

Muldoon has had a cracking season, he has outplayed players like Robshaw home and away in the Heineken Cup

He's a warrior who relishes the combat and I think it's a big miss that he hasn't been brought to NZ. He's just the type of player we need in Ferris absence,someone who'll go to war and stand up physically to the NZ back row. In no way am I dismissing McLaughlin, but if I was in Muldoon's shoes I'd be very disallusioned and be wondering what I'd have to do to break into the squad.

I doubt he's disillusioned, upset yes. I'm sure he's aware that we have a lot of good back row players all of similar standard.

porterbelly

Tox56 wrote: »

If we are going to go without POC, McLaughlin's expertise in the lineout will have worked in his favour, as would his familarity with the Leinster backrow if he was called upon at short notice. He doesn't carry destructively but does carry intelligently. Muldoon has his chance against the Baa Baa's, but you can see the reasoning behind bringing McLaughlin.

Muldoon is just making up the numbers v the Baa Baa's. He has no chance of going unless there's more injuries. He deserves better than that

Fishooks12

porterbelly wrote: »

Muldoon is just making up the numbers v the Baa Baa's. He has no chance of going unless there's more injuries. He deserves better than that

Who would you have him ahead of though?

Tox56

bilston wrote: »

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Healy and Ross haven't been ruled out either. Healy will probably be fit

Other than that we'll still have a decent back row and our second row will arguably improve if Tuohy starts

I know they haven't been ruled out that's why I said IF the worst happens on the injury front although someone told me Healy would probably be fit for thw Pro 12 final so who knows.

If they do travel how fit will they be? I'd be bringing more than 29 players to NZ to compensate for the fact there will be a few injury doubts.

Our second row won't be improved if Tuohy starts in place of an injured O'Connell and our back row minus Ferris just isn't as good despite the love in here amongst Leinster fans for McLaughlin.

Who on earth was arguing that our backrow wouldn't be weakened with the loss of Ferris?? He's one of the best 6's in the world, of course our backrow would be weaker without him

Hagz

porterbelly wrote: »

He deserves better than that

Evidently that's an opinion of the minority though. In my opinion, when it comes to the list of players who can feel aggrieved being left at home, Muldoon is far down the list.(thought the list is not that big)

molloyjh

bilston wrote: »

...despite the love in here amongst Leinster fans for McLaughlin.

Any chance we can knock this crap on the head!? All people are saying is that Locky is effective at what he does, which he is. And that he adds an extra option in the line-out which he does. It's hardly like anyone is saying he's a world beater and should be first choice or anything. Whether he can step up to international level remains to be seen, and he probably won't get much of an opportunity on this tour barring injuries to other back-rowers. But having been first choice for the European champions all season I reckon he deserves a shot at showing what he can do every bit as much as a few others. He's still behind Fez, SOB and POM for the 6 shirt and I don't think many would complain about that.

bamboozle

molloyjh wrote: »

Any chance we can knock this crap on the head!? All people are saying is that Locky is effective at what he does, which he is. And that he adds an extra option in the line-out which he does. It's hardly like anyone is saying he's a world beater and should be first choice or anything. Whether he can step up to international level remains to be seen, and he probably won't get much of an opportunity on this tour barring injuries to other back-rowers. But having been first choice for the European champions all season I reckon he deserves a shot at showing what he can do every bit as much as a few others. He's still behind Fez, SOB and POM for the 6 shirt and I don't think many would complain about that.

i'd disagree with the above and suggest McLaughlin is probably the most underrated player in Irish rugby, he's had a better season than POM, POM has played well in some games and stood out in a poor munster team but he's not at the same level as McL in my opinion and is completely overhyped.

Watching McL play his ball carrying is so effective, he generally carries off rucks and mauls and the pace and angles he comes onto the ball are what all young rugby players should try replicate. His defence is great, his lineout is very good.

Muldoon is very much under appreciated also, dare i suggest both Muldoon and Mclaughlin would stroll onto the current munster backrow at 8 & 6.

Fishooks12

bamboozle wrote: »

i'd disagree with the above and suggest McLaughlin is probably the most underrated player in Irish rugby, he's had a better season than POM, POM has played well in some games and stood out in a poor munster team but he's not at the same level as McL in my opinion and is completely overhyped.

Watching McL play his ball carrying is so effective, he generally carries off rucks and mauls and the pace and angles he comes onto the ball are what all young rugby players should try replicate. His defence is great, his lineout is very good.

Muldoon is very much under appreciated also, dare i suggest both Muldoon and Mclaughlin would stroll onto the current munster backrow at 8 & 6.

The word "stroll" is nothing short of an insult to POM and his current form, not to mention his standing as a leader in the Munster squad that you think one of 2 players who are much of a muchness to him, and IMO not as good could just stroll into the squad and have pick of his positions. Not to mention the fact that McL at 8 would only ever come about in an emergency for Leinster

The way POM is spoke about in this forum is as if the majority of posters calling him overrated haven't even seen him play this year

It's all subjective I suppose but I'd have neither player ahead of POM

People keep trotting out the cliched line that he's overrated without anything to back it up.

In reality without him I doubt Munster would have made a semi final spot in the rabo or gotten out of their HC group without him, in fact I'm pretty sure of it. His work around the park for Munster this year has been nothing short of phenomenal and he was one of the few players to actually stand out in the quarter final for Munster, which is all the more impressive considering how battered the rest of our pack looked

I'd be happy to see himself or McL start because I don't think there is much between them right now. But I'd have POM ahead considering he was greater scope for improvement. It just seems a bit unfair that after POM's year he's been constantly referred to as "overrated" so I thought I'd give the other side of the coin

irishbucsfan

I've seen every game, pretty much, that POM has played this year. He is overrated. That's not to say he's not a good player, but he is not as good as some suggest. I'd imagine by the time the next world Cup runs around he'll be one of the most important players in the squad though.

Tox56

Is there any chance he meant Locky at 6, Muldoon at 8 and POM at 7?

Fishooks12

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I've seen every game, pretty much, that POM has played this year. He is overrated. That's not to say he's not a good player, but he is not as good as some suggest. I'd imagine by the time the next world Cup runs around he'll be one of the most important players in the squad though.

Which would mean it wouldn't be as productive playing McL or especially Muldoon ahead off him considering most people would agree neither of them will be in the reckoning for Ireland's next WC squad

(maybe Locky if he's still playing at this level at 30)

I wouldn't have an issue with starting them ahead of POM if the gulf in performance between the two were so great. But as I'm sure you'll agree there isn't a whole tonne between the two at the moment, whichever you think is better?

bamboozle

Fishooks12 wrote: »

The word "stroll" is nothing short of an insult to POM and his current form, not to mention his standing as a leader in the Munster squad that you think one of 2 players who are much of a muchness to him, and IMO not as good could just stroll into the squad and have pick of his positions. Not to mention the fact that McL at 8 would only ever come about in an emergency for Leinster

The way POM is spoke about in this forum is as if the majority of posters calling him overrated haven't even seen him play this year

It's all subjective I suppose but I'd have neither player ahead of POM

People keep trotting out the cliched line that he's overrated without anything to back it up.

In reality without him I doubt Munster would have made a semi final spot in the rabo or gotten out of their HC group. His work around the park for Munster this year has been nothing short of phenomenal and he was one of the few players to actually stand out in the quarter final for Munster, which is all the more impressive considering how battered the rest of our pack looked

I'd be happy to see himself or McL start because I don't think there is much between them right now. But I'd have POM ahead considering he was greater scope for improvement. It just seems a bit unfair that after POM's year he's been constantly referred to as "overrated" so I thought I'd give the other side of the coin

What i suggested above was muldoon at 8 and Mcl at 6, much of the POM hype (aided by G. Hook) was for him as a 7. I've seen him play plenty for Munster and for Cork Con and yes he's good but i think his form this season has been overhyped & expectations of him have increased as a result.

this time 12 months ago people were raving about danny barnes's performance in the magner's final and touting him as a replacement for BOD in national team. He finished this season playing AIL with Dolphin.

I think POM is very good but he's not near the levels some people suggest.

irishbucsfan

Fishooks12 wrote: »

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I've seen every game, pretty much, that POM has played this year. He is overrated. That's not to say he's not a good player, but he is not as good as some suggest. I'd imagine by the time the next world Cup runs around he'll be one of the most important players in the squad though.

Which would mean it wouldn't be as productive playing McL or especially Muldoon ahead off him considering most people would agree neither of them will be in the reckoning for Ireland's next WC squad

(maybe Locky if he's still playing at this level at 30)

I wouldn't have an issue with starting them ahead of POM if the gulf in performance between the two were so great. But as I'm sure you'll agree there isn't a whole tonne between the two at the moment, whichever you think is better?

I dont subscribe to the myth, at all, that a player with potential fulfills it by just playing rugby. So no it would not be more productive. In fact KMcL is the perfect example of that.

What would be most productive, and what would greatly accelerate his development, would be to stay at home with a 2 month programme. Although given injuries that's not an option unfortunately.

Fishooks12

bamboozle wrote: »

What i suggested above was muldoon at 8 and Mcl at 6, much of the POM hype (aided by G. Hook) was for him as a 7. I've seen him play plenty for Munster and for Cork Con and yes he's good but i think his form this season has been overhyped & expectations of him have increased as a result.

this time 12 months ago people were raving about danny barnes's performance in the magner's final and touting him as a replacement for BOD in national team. He finished this season playing AIL with Dolphin.

Barnes had a decent two months to the end of last season whereas POM has been excellent all year for Munster.

Hook is spouting ****e tbh. POM's best position is 6 IMO followed by 8. I'd have him concentrating on six with a view to being able to smoothly alternate internationally to eight to improve our versatility

bilston

molloyjh wrote: »

Any chance we can knock this crap on the head!?

Errrr ok

profitius

POM overrated? Who is overrating him? He has won numerous MOTM awards this season, is a leader, he has a great workrate, is aggressive, has really underrated handling skills (I can't remember 1 handling error this season), is a good lineout man and is a good ball carrier. He has also been shifted around the backrow. I've no idea what his best positions is because his skill set allows him play in different positions.

He needs to calm down a bit and maybe as he mature he will. Hook saw him playing 7 and was impressed but just because Hook says something it doesn't mean its automatically wrong.

This reminds me of the Donnacha Ryan discussions a few years back. People obviously didn't know what he could do but were arguing that he was a magners league standard player only.

irishbucsfan

POM has made handling errors. Had a couple of very bad ones against (I think) Castres. Also he has turned over a bit of ball with over aggressive carrying. Handling is good though generally but I havent seen anyone criticise it.

It's funny when someone asks who is overrating him, and then continues to do it in the exact sane paragraph!

To be a really great 6 he needs gym time though. If it wasn't for the Munster and Ireland injuries this year I'd imagine he'd be getting it. It'll just have to come a bit more gradually. KMcL had the luxury of being behind Rocky etc. which allowed him to bulk up to where he was in 2010, POM was nearly just as lucky but for the injuries.

Tox56

By this time next year I'm sure POM will be plenty big enough, he definitely has the skills.

Fishooks12

I don't remember POM physically lacking in any game I've seen him in this year? Although bulking up will improve his ball carrying

irishbucsfan

Fishooks12 wrote: »

I don't remember POM physically lacking in any game I've seen him in this year? Although bulking up will improve his ball carrying

I've seen it repeatedly. Being a smaller back row myself whose had to put on weight its quite obvious to me I guess.

Also there's the defensive issues, we've all seen what a 6 who can't tackle is worth, Mr. Neil Best. POM is immeasurably better than him though, I think that'll just take a bit of experience to sort out in terms of spacial judgement and footwork.

He's obviously well worth his place in the squad mind.

profitius

irishbucsfan wrote: »

POM has made handling errors. Had a couple of very bad ones against (I think) Castres. Also he has turned over a bit of ball with over aggressive carrying. Handling is good though generally but I havent seen anyone criticise it.

It's funny when someone asks who is overrating him, and then continues to do it in the exact sane paragraph!

To be a really great 6 he needs gym time though. If it wasn't for the Munster and Ireland injuries this year I'd imagine he'd be getting it. It'll just have to come a bit more gradually. KMcL had the luxury of being behind Rocky etc. which allowed him to bulk up to where he was in 2010, POM was nearly just as lucky but for the injuries.

I'm not overrating him. I named out all his qualities. Sure maybe he made a few handling errors I missed but those were rare.

POM is the same size as McCaw and Kieran Read according to a post from yesterday.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I don't talk up many players but the signs look good for POM. I'm not too bothered about him starting against NZ. He should have gotten a ban for the late, slide tackle on the Ospreys player (IMO) so hes lucky to be going to NZ in that sense.

twinytwo

No ferris, no bowe, prob no POC and even worse prob no ross.... anymore injuries and this tour will turn into a farce before it even gets started.