Ireland Tour to New Zealand 2012 Discussion thread

totallegend

totallegend wrote: »

McCarthy is being brought as cover for O'Connell, not for six; with O'Mahony, McLaughlin and O'Brien in the squad (and Ryan as emergency), we're OK for sixes.

Toner is a better long-term prospect for international rugby than McCarthy; on that basis alone, he should be going.

I know this, but you need a powerful pack to not get overrun by the AB's. McCarthy's time at 6 lends to the suggestion that he's a powerful runner, and more suitable to an open play type game. I like Toner, a lot, but this is not his stage.

Tox56 wrote: »

McCarthy is more versatile and is a better player now, but I think if Toner works on his grunt and "unseen work", he definitely could turn out to be the better player.

For a second row he is uniquely visible due to his spectacular catches and ridiculous height, but he needs more 'Thorn' in his game, although he has clearly been working on it and is improving.

Again, this is a 3 week Missionary Visit imo, Toner will be involved in future more, but he's not the guy that I want to see playing vs the AB's.

Sindri

Only 1 fullback with Earls to cover I presume is madness and 3 wingers (4 if you count Earls which is where I would play him). He could easily have brought Wallace and Gilroy/Kearney and even one or two more besides them as well, not to mention Madigan. We're seriously lacking depth in the backs.

Tox56

LordSmeg wrote: »

I dont know why I am still surprised at this stage. The Irish management have been nothing but incompetent for the last few years.

3 defeats in NZ (one of which will be hard fought) and it all ticks over. Nothing ventured nothing lost seems to be their motto.

Why did Gilroy play last night at all if he had no chance of going and the game was only played for game time ? Why didnt Marshall get on if he was going and needed game time ? Its all a bit of a shambles really.

If we don't win a single game, as seems likely, there will be no complaints in the press as of course this is New Zealand and the injury to POC, end of a long season etc. (Completely ignoring the lack of forward planning and experimentation).

And if we do scrape a test against a weakened team, well, he's safe for the rest of his managerial career, possibly a new contract.

CatFromHue

Tox56 wrote: »

If we don't win a single game, as seems likely, there will be no complaints in the press as of course this is New Zealand and the injury to POC, end of a long season etc. (Completely ignoring the lack of forward planning and experimentation).

I'm not so sure the grumblings in the press have been a bit more satisfied than usual. We will have to perform and getting hockeyed in 2 or 3 tests will put Kidney in a bad position.

.ak

CatFromHue wrote: »

I'm not so sure the grumblings in the press have been a bit more satisfied than usual. We will have to perform and getting hockeyed in 2 or 3 tests will put Kidney in a bad position.

How? The IRFU won't hire anyone before the 2013 6N. He could lose all the games and the only thing that'd effect him is what job he'd get after leaving the union.

.ak

Deleted User wrote: »

Gilroy has been better than Trimble this season (and last tbh). But Trimble in green is usually a different beast than in White.

Still, got to be tough to play better than a squad favourite for two years and not get time, only to see another player get their shot ahead of you...

Familiar story up North tbh, Tuohy in a similar position until this very squad naming. Wallace, the incumbent "wasted man" of Irish Rugby another candidate for sympathy.

Dunno if I agree about the Trimble statement (if I follow you). I think he plays better in white than green. He's been instrumental to some of Ulster's big wins this year. He's used completely differently I'll agree, but I'd say Ulster use him better; it's like having an bosh-type 12 on the field running up the wing. He looks seriously dangerous for Ulster.

However, for Ireland, I think he's average at best. Sure his tackling his immense, and he's a brute under high ball, and can kick a ball too! But he never really looks that dangerous. A Kidney-esque player personified when he plays in green.

CatFromHue

.ak wrote: »

How? The IRFU won't hire anyone before the 2013 6N. He could lose all the games and the only thing that'd effect him is what job he'd get after leaving the union.

The IRFU and the press are a different matter but I have read a few articles recently and quotes putting pressure on the Irish management to get the team to perform.

Quinlan had a few quotes that would have gone against the grain that everything is ok in Irish rugby at the moment.

"Kidney is under pressure and his coaching staff are under pressure because the big question is the provincial form versus the national form and getting guys to gel," said the Sky pundit.

"There's an expectation in Ireland now that we want the national team to deliver better for us."
http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/pressure-on-kidney-quinlan-3122961.html

GerM

Toner played against NZ before and wasn't off the pace. He wasn't spectacular but these guys are human and Toner is playing as well as any lock in the country currently. He should have been MOTM for me in the Pro12 final.

The reason I'd advocate Toner's selection mainly though is that, assuming POC is out, we're going down there without our best jumper. Toner is the one man that can come close to guaranteeing us line out ball once the throw is decent. Instead we've selected McCarthy. Nothing against McCarthy, he's an excellent player but he's very different to Toner but is very, very similar to what we already have on the plane. Going to NZ with McLaughlin, Ryan and Tuohy and then calling up McCarthy doesn't make much sense to me. To be honest, I'd have left McLaughlin and McCarthy out and taken Muldoon (who can cover across the back row where we're we look light) and Toner. Toner offers something that no other lock can with his handling and line out presence. We're taking so many of the same type of player, I find it bewildering especially as Toner, at 25, will more than likely be involved a fair bit in the future.

.ak

CatFromHue wrote: »

The IRFU and the press are a different matter but I have read a few articles recently and quotes putting pressure on the Irish management to get the team to perform.

Quinlan had a few quotes that would have gone against the grain that everything is ok in Irish rugby at the moment.

"Kidney is under pressure and his coaching staff are under pressure because the big question is the provincial form versus the national form and getting guys to gel," said the Sky pundit.

"There's an expectation in Ireland now that we want the national team to deliver better for us."
http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/pressure-on-kidney-quinlan-3122961.html

Yeah, which is great n' all, but my point still kinda stands. Kidney could be under all sorts of pressure, and you imagine he would be, as anyone in their job would. But my point is: What will they do? They're not going to release him from contract early.

Unless he figures he's getting another extension.

bamboozle

GerM wrote: »

Toner played against NZ before and wasn't off the pace. He wasn't spectacular but these guys are human and Toner is playing as well as any lock in the country currently. He should have been MOTM for me in the Pro12 final.

The reason I'd advocate Toner's selection mainly though is that, assuming POC is out, we're going down there without our best jumper. Toner is the one man that can come close to guaranteeing us line out ball once the throw is decent. Instead we've selected McCarthy. Nothing against McCarthy, he's an excellent player but he's very different to Toner but is very, very similar to what we already have on the plane. Going to NZ with McLaughlin, Ryan and Tuohy and then calling up McCarthy doesn't make much sense to me. To be honest, I'd have left McLaughlin and McCarthy out and taken Muldoon (who can cover across the back row where we're we look light) and Toner. Toner offers something that no other lock can with his handling and line out presence. We're taking so many of the same type of player, I find it bewildering especially as Toner, at 25, will more than likely be involved a fair bit in the future.

dare i suggest with Ross's injury we're going to be in trouble at scrum time and Tonar's frame in the scrum will only weaken us further.

to be honest i'm actually happy with the squad, which shows how low my expectations of Kidney are, i expected to see Cullen get the nod ahead McCarthy/Tonar.

Agree though re Muldoon, he's a man i'd want in any squad taking on NZ down there.

fitz

Deleted User wrote: »

I wouldn't. Toner couldn't play 6 with any degree of power.

They're very different players.

As GerM pointed out, we're not exactly stuck for guys who can play 6.
Toner is the better line-out option, and I've been seriously impressed by his improvement this year...his handling has been sublime at times.

dub_skav

As we saw from the wc squad, deccie wants as many 6s as possible, no 7s and as few out and out 2nd rows as possible for good measure. It's all about the 5.5

boynesider

dub_skav wrote: »

As we saw from the wc squad, deccie wants as many 6s as possible, no 7s and as few out and out 2nd rows as possible for good measure. It's all about the 5.5

SOB and Henry have played 7 all season and POM played his full international debut there so I don't know how you can say that. Are there any other back rowers you feel should have gone, because I don't know who they are?

Good decision to pick Loughney and in fairness it isn't far away from being a good squad. Still would have liked to see Gilroy, Madigan, D Kearney and Toner go, possibly even Tiernan O'Halloran who I believe could be the best young winger of the lot at the moment.

This would be my team for the first test. Because it is our best chance of a win I feel we should leave the experimentation until the last two tests (although maybe expecting Kidney to experiment at any stage is fanciful thinking).

1 Healy
2 Best
3 Ross
4 POC
5 Ryan/Tuohy (I like them both, toss a coin)
6 POM
7 SOB ( could well be the other way round with POM)
8 Heaslip

9 Reddan
10 Sexton
11 Earls
12 Darce
13 BOD
14 Trimble (very out of form however. Would love to see Dave Kearney given a shot)
15 Kearney

Not a bad team at all. Would of couse favour the AB's in all tests but I'm not as pessiimistic as some.

its_phil

I think we should have Loughney as our sub prop, for the sake of having someone who can play on both sides of the scrum at a decent level.

Tox56

its_phil wrote: »

I think we should have Loughney as our sub prop, for the sake of having someone who can play on both sides of the scrum at a decent level.

I don't think we have much choice to be honest, there really is nobody else who can.

fitz

Tox56 wrote: »

I don't think we have much choice to be honest, there really is nobody else who can.

Which means Kidney will probably bench Fitzpatrick.

RoundBox11

In fairness, I don't think there's not a lot to complain about with this squad selection. i know some of the changes were forced but one way or another, we got what we've been shouting for for months, a few exceptions aside.

I think if the main complaints we have are Gilroy and Wallace missing out, that says something (i know theyve been great all season but somebody has to miss out)

We've 6 uncapped players and 5 lads who've only a handful (Tuohy, McCarthy, Cave, Henry, McLaughlin). Thats fantastic in my mind. Realistically, bringing Madigan or Gilroy (although they deserve it more than some others) would've added more inexperience to the squad thats already full of newcomers.

I'm not overly optimistic about seeing all these players get gametime but its better than the usual predictable squad selections!

fitz

RoundBox11 wrote: »

In fairness, I don't think there's not a lot to complain about with this squad selection. i know some of the changes were forced but one way or another, we got what we've been shouting for for months, a few exceptions aside.

I think if the main complaints we have are Gilroy and Wallace missing out, that says something (i know theyve been great all season but somebody has to miss out)

We've 6 uncapped players and 5 lads who've only a handful (Tuohy, McCarthy, Cave, Henry, McLaughlin). Thats fantastic in my mind. Realistically, bringing Madigan or Gilroy (although they deserve it more than some others) would've added more inexperience to the squad thats already full of newcomers.

I'm not overly optimistic about seeing all these players get gametime but its better than the usual predictable squad selections!

In fairness, it doesn't really matter who got selected. We know who the first 15 will be, and Kidney will by and large keep those players in place if at all possible.
The selections do represent how arse-about-face the thinking is though, and just re-enforces the pessimism some have about the type of rugby he'll have the team playing down there.

RoundBox11

fitz wrote: »

In fairness, it doesn't really matter who got selected. We know who the first 15 will be, and Kidney will by and large keep those players in place if at all possible.
The selections do represent how arse-about-face the thinking is though, and just re-enforces the pessimism some have about the type of rugby he'll have the team playing down there.

Well as i said, it's better than having Leamy, MOD, Buckley, Court, Horan, O'Leary etc. etc.

The same 15 won't last all three games, not a chance. We'll see at least 2 or 3 new caps anyway

dtpc191991

I don't care how many young players are going the fact that Zebo has been taken over Gilroy after last night is pathetic. Even with new caps my predicted matchday 22 is on the left. On the right is the one I would like to have seen picked from the squad that actually should have went.

Kidney


1. Cian Healy
2. Rory Best
3. Mike Ross
4. DOC
5. Ryan
6. POM
7. SOB
8. Heaslip
9. Murray
10. Sexton
11. Earls
12. D'Arcy
13. BOD (C)
14. Trimble
15. Kearney
16. Cronin
17. Loughney
18. Touhy
19. Henry
20. Reddan
21. O'Gara
22 .McFadden

Me


1. Cian Healy
2. Sean Cronin
3. Mike Ross
4. Touhy
5. Ryan
6. POM
7. SOB
8. Heaslip
9. Reddan
10. Sexton
11. Earls
12. Wallace
13. BOD (C)
14. Gilroy
15. Kearney
16. Best
17. Loughney
18. Toner
19. Henry
20. Marshall
21. Madigan
22. McFadden

N.B: (In my squad the likes of Cave, Madigan, McFadden, Henry, Toner etc would be rotated and included as starters in at least one of the other two games against the ABs).

d-gal

Pretty happy with the squad. Only general dislikes are no Wallace, gilroy or Muldoon.
Anyone disputing toner over McCarthy needs their head examined. McCarthy is great in the scrum, does much more around the field, a better carrier and is equally excellent in the line out. Toner has potential but just because u play with a dominant Leinster team doesn't mean you deserve your spot. If McCarthy was signed by Leinster last year he would have been starting 2nd row every time (presuming thorn would not have been signed).

Gilroy has to feel hard done by but at least zebo has huge potential and it will do him good. Pretty much everyone has left out TOH who has played very well and deserves an equal shot. He didn't look a bit out of place in the HC including against the English champions.
Pity Muldoon didn't get selected purely on the basis he is exactly the type of player we need over there. But we ar blessed with backrows.

Congrats to Loughney and wilkinson getting called. They both deserve it and hopefully 1 of them can oust court for the 17 slot

leonard7

zebo over gilroy...? Kidney you have made your bed, now lie in it

sydthebeat

d-gal wrote: »

..........
Anyone disputing toner over McCarthy needs their head examined. McCarthy is great in the scrum, does much more around the field, a better carrier and is equally excellent in the line out. ............

hummm.... surely your not suggesting mc carty is equal to toner in lineouts?

When POC and DOC finally hang up their boots, toner will be out mainstay of the forwards for years to come... he has increased his abilities in broken play no end this season. He was the stand out leinster player in the Rabo while the 6 nations was on.

Cpt_Blackbeard

For a man that has done little else in his breakthrough season than score a bundle of tries, there is an awful lot of vitriol spouted Zebo's way.

Why is he being singled out for criticism for Gilroy's exclusion? Both players have been comfortably better wingers than Trimble (and arguably McFadden) this season, yet Zebo is singled out for abuse. Is it just the Munster conspiracy?

TopOfTheRight

I think Gilroy, Zebo and Kearney should all be going, Trimble and McFadden are good players yes but neither are world class wingers, whereas the three young lads potentially could be, if they were given the chance, McFaddens versatility will be mentioned but I guarantee you we wont see him in the centre barring a major plague of injuries. I cant see us winning a test anyway so why not put in some exciting wingers who could pull something unexpected out of their hats

Tox56

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

For a man that has done little else in his breakthrough season than score a bundle of tries, there is an awful lot of vitriol spouted Zebo's way.

Why is he being singled out for criticism for Gilroy's exclusion? Both players have been comfortably better wingers than Trimble (and arguably McFadden) this season, yet Zebo is singled out for abuse. Is it just the Munster conspiracy?

Trimble had a poor end of season but he was probably the best winger in Ireland earlier this season and we need someone with experience playing the AB's. McFadden is there for his versatility which we will need with such a small squad.

With the self-imposed cap of 29 players (which seems unnecessary imo) there is only space for 1 up and coming winger. Zebo was chosen after twice being outplayed at national (and Wolfhounds) level by another young, exciting Irish winger.

Fishooks12

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

For a man that has done little else in his breakthrough season than score a bundle of tries, there is an awful lot of vitriol spouted Zebo's way.

Why is he being singled out for criticism for Gilroy's exclusion? Both players have been comfortably better wingers than Trimble (and arguably McFadden) this season, yet Zebo is singled out for abuse. Is it just the Munster conspiracy?

I agree

.ak

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

For a man that has done little else in his breakthrough season than score a bundle of tries, there is an awful lot of vitriol spouted Zebo's way.

VITRIOL
vit·ri·ol/ˈvitrēəl/
Noun:
Sulfuric acid.
Cruel and bitter criticism.

Over reaction maybe? I haven't seen anyone condemn Zebo's actions here - just Kidney's. No one is spouting anything towards Zebo..

However, whilst we're on the subject - You're right, he has done little else other than score a bundle of tries. Having an bit of pace and being a good finisher doesn't make you international standard. These days you need a good, all round game. Defensively poor and bad decision making wouldn't be unfair attributes given to Zebo.

The lad has bags of potential, and will no doubt be a force to be reckoned with in the future if he gets his head screwed on and learns to round off his footballing skills.

.. but no one cany deny that at the moment Gilroy>Zebo.

Why is he being singled out for criticism for Gilroy's exclusion? Both players have been comfortably better wingers than Trimble (and arguably McFadden) this season, yet Zebo is singled out for abuse. Is it just the Munster conspiracy?

Because Gilroy and Zebo are the top fringe wingers at the moment. But as pointed out above, if only one could travel, you'd want the better option in Gilroy.

Trimble is a solid, experienced international at this stage. Why would you not bring him? He's the one player that will keep his cool at all times. I for one will admit he's far from an attacking threat when playing for Ireland, but he has his moments, and if we required a defensive setup he'll be our go to man.

McFadden has a far greater skillset than either Zebo or Gilroy. He's not a fantastic winger, but he's a decent one - he's also a decent centre, can also play FB and has played at 10 before. Handy kicker too. He was always gonna travel. He's Mr. 22 (unfortunately for him).

Podge_irl

McFadden has played 10 and 15? I wouldn't have thought he had the passing game for either.

.ak

Podge_irl wrote: »

McFadden has played 10 and 15? I wouldn't have thought he had the passing game for either.

IIRC he played there for Clongowes once or twice. I could be wrong, but he's the same age as me I think I remember it. I stand to be corrected tho.