Ireland Tour to New Zealand 2012 Discussion thread

d-gal

sydthebeat wrote: »

hummm.... surely your not suggesting mc carty is equal to toner in lineouts?

When POC and DOC finally hang up their boots, toner will be out mainstay of the forwards for years to come... he has increased his abilities in broken play no end this season. He was the stand out leinster player in the Rabo while the 6 nations was on.

McCarthy runs the Connacht line out, and very effectively. Steals plenty and very rarely loses his own. I advise you might watch a Connacht match or 3. He is much more superior to toner at the moment. Toner has obviously more potential but not a better player at the moment.
Plenty of second rows coming through and toner will no way be a nailed down starter for years to come. Henderson looks the only future nailed down second row. Absolute animal. Throw Kearney, qualter, nagle into the mix as well. Future is very bright for second rows and back rows in ireland.

I agree with Blackbeard as well, less crap about zebo. Trimble and McFadden out, gilroy and Kearney/TOH in!
It's not just all Munster bias

JRant

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

For a man that has done little else in his breakthrough season than score a bundle of tries, there is an awful lot of vitriol spouted Zebo's way.

Why is he being singled out for criticism for Gilroy's exclusion? Both players have been comfortably better wingers than Trimble (and arguably McFadden) this season, yet Zebo is singled out for abuse. Is it just the Munster conspiracy?

I would say that given the way DK wants to play ie defend for 70 mins and try attack the other 10 mins, it doesn't make sense to bring the most suspect defender of the three young players. There's no doubting the lad has potential going forward but he has a lot to learn about defending properly at the moment.

CatFromHue

JRant wrote: »

I would say that given the way DK wants to play ie defend for 70 mins and try attack the other 10 mins, it doesn't make sense to bring the most suspect defender of the three young players. There's no doubting the lad has potential going forward but he has a lot to learn about defending properly at the moment.

None of Gilroy, Zebo, or Dave Kearney have great defensive qualities. Kearney has improved a lot but is still not amazing.

Frankly the argument here is over a very small difference. For all their different abilities sometimes you just want a guy who scores tries which Zebo has scored a hell of a lot more than the others. It's a fairly simplistic argument but important all the same.

Scioch

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

For a man that has done little else in his breakthrough season than score a bundle of tries, there is an awful lot of vitriol spouted Zebo's way.

Why is he being singled out for criticism for Gilroy's exclusion? Both players have been comfortably better wingers than Trimble (and arguably McFadden) this season, yet Zebo is singled out for abuse. Is it just the Munster conspiracy?

Vitriol, abuse and criticism ? Are you on drugs ? Little red pills is it ?

There has been no abuse aimed at Zebo at all. If its a choice between the two (which it probably is in the useless ones head) then a lot of people would bring Gilroy.

Thats not criticism of Zebo, not is it vitriol or abuse. So give over with the nonsense.

Podge_irl

CatFromHue wrote: »

Frankly the argument here is over a very small difference.

It is. I think people's frustrations with Kidney are just boiling over and Zebo is unfortunately the brunt of that. Zebo is just exactly the kind of player Kidney has ignored in the past and people are somewhat perplexed.

darragh_haven

LordSmeg wrote: »

Vitriol, abuse and criticism ? Are you on drugs ? Little red pills is it ?

There has been no abuse aimed at Zebo at all. If its a choice between the two (which it probably is in the useless ones head) then a lot of people would bring Gilroy.

Thats not criticism of Zebo, not is it vitriol or abuse. So give over with the nonsense.

there are a number of the comments towards Zebo over the last few weeks that could be seen as abuse....
as for vile filled post, i just dont know :rolleyes:

Tox56

I don't personally have anything against Zebo, he's clearly an exciting talent who I want to see do well, he doesn't select himself. However, he has been outplayed by both Kearney and Gilroy when they've played for Ireland, and Gilroy in particular has what sounds like a fantastic game, and is still ignored.

Obviously if Zebo plays I hope he plays well, but you have to wonder what Gilroy has to do to be selected, most people here thought even before last night Gilroy was the better choice, and even after that performance he doesn't get his chance.

And no, I don't buy the "Munster bias", I just think Kidney has made the wrong decision.

Scioch

darragh_haven wrote: »

there are a number of the comments towards Zebo over the last few weeks that could be seen as abuse....
as for vile filled post, i just dont know :rolleyes:

By all means link to them because I dont recall seeing anything that can be classed as abuse, nothing vitriolic aimed at Zebo and the majority of the criticism has been aimed at Kidney with the discussion based around Gilroys merits in relation to Zebo's.

But by all means ignore that and play the poor old Munster card, those poor boys never get a look in I suppose. If only we had a coach capable of ignoring other provincial players in favour of clearly less talented Munster players, maybe then they would get a fair look in.

See I can do sarcasm too. :rolleyes:

CatFromHue

Tox56 wrote: »

you have to wonder what Gilroy has to do to be selected, most people here thought even before last night Gilroy was the better choice

I don't think they did, I certainly didn't anyway.

Tox56

CatFromHue wrote: »

I don't think they did, I certainly didn't anyway.

It's definitely the impression I got from reading here and other forums, although that isn't exactly scientific.

Fishooks12

LordSmeg wrote: »

By all means link to them because I dont recall seeing anything that can be classed as abuse, nothing vitriolic aimed at Zebo and the majority of the criticism has been aimed at Kidney with the discussion based around Gilroys merits in relation to Zebo's.

But by all means ignore that and play the poor old Munster card, those poor boys never get a look in I suppose. If only we had a coach capable of ignoring other provincial players in favour of clearly less talented Munster players, maybe then they would get a fair look in.

See I can do sarcasm too. :rolleyes:

I think this has a lot to do with it. If Zebo wasn't a Munster player I doubt the "disgrace" of his inclusion would be highlighted as much

Scioch

CatFromHue wrote: »

I don't think they did, I certainly didn't anyway.

I thought the general consensus was that Gilroy was the better choice too. Personally I expected both to travel so never seen it as much of a debate about one vs the other until now.

Scioch

Fishooks12 wrote: »

I think this has a lot to do with it. If Zebo wasn't a Munster player I doubt the "disgrace" of his inclusion would be highlighted as much

What disgrace ? I think this is the problem, some people are taking peoples valid criticisms of his selection over someone they feel is a better choice as an attack on Munster and Zebo.

What disgrace is there in someone saying one player is better than another ?

Fishooks12

Fishooks12 wrote: »

I think this has a lot to do with it. If Zebo wasn't a Munster player I doubt the "disgrace" of his inclusion would be highlighted as much

it's not a disgrace that he was selected. It's a disgrace the Gilroy wasn't.

If the argument is that Zebo forced himself into the side, than surely using the same metric, Gilroy has done the same too.

Since the last Irish camp, what has changed amongst the 3? (Gilroy, Zebo and Kearney (and O'Halloran who is easily forgotten!)).

Zebo and Gilroy have scored the same amount (14) tries for their province, albeit Gilroy has had 10 more appearances, both are young players on upward curves.

Surely if we find room, we find room for them both!?

As has been said at least 12 times already, 29/30 players isn't enough for this tour. We will have to call someone up. And regardless, guys like Gilroy, Zebo, Dom Ryan, Madigan, Keatley etc would benefit from the experience of an international touring party. Pressure off if they're not expected to play, instead we'll see one of them **** the bed on first exposure to a balmy Australian/South African evening in a couple of years time.

As always, the development of players, of a national squad, of more than a "team for the next 6 weeks" is being completely ignored by the people who tell us they have the game's best interests at heart.

Tox56

Fishooks12 wrote: »

I think this has a lot to do with it. If Zebo wasn't a Munster player I doubt the "disgrace" of his inclusion would be highlighted as much

There are people who believe that, but don't let that take away from the arugments of those who don't.

Fishooks12

LordSmeg wrote: »

What disgrace ? I think this is the problem, some people are taking peoples valid criticisms of his selection over someone they feel is a better choice as an attack on Munster and Zebo.

What disgrace is there in someone saying one player is better than another ?

People have been calling the Zebo over Gilroy call a "disgrace". that's what I mean

I'd have Gilroy ahead of Zebo but there isn't nearly as much between the players as some would have you think. Gilroy is a slightly better defender but neither are anywhere near the complete article defensively yet

Zebo has a far better try scoring record playing in a very very average backline in comparison to Ulster's so I think that counts for a lot too

I'd have gone with both players, Gilroy if forced into a decision but I'm not in anyway displeased to see Zebo travel

I just think Munster players come in for much sterner critique on this forum from some posters than players from other provinces in relation to Ireland selection

DOC is another example. No way should he be near an Irish squad and his inclusion is a joke considering our other options. But some of the stuff people have said about him would lead you to believe he's some sort of donkey incapable of even playing the game anymore when in fact he's actually had a decent year form-wise and will be a good option as an impact sub forr Munster next year

Fishooks12

Fishooks12 wrote: »

People have been calling the Zebo over Gilroy call a "disgrace". that's what I mean

I'd have Gilroy ahead of Zebo but there isn't nearly as much between the players as some would have you think. Gilroy is a slightly better defender but neither are anywhere near the complete article defensively yet

Zebo has a far better try scoring record playing in a very very average backline in comparison to Ulster's so I think that counts for a lot too

I'd have gone with both players, Gilroy if forced into a decision but I'm not in anyway displeased to see Zebo travel

I just think Munster players come in for much sterner critique on this forum from some posters than players from other provinces in relation to Ireland selection

DOC is another example. No way should he be near an Irish squad and his inclusion is a joke considering our other options. But some of the stuff people have said about him would lead you to believe he's some sort of donkey incapable of even playing the game anymore when in fact he's actually had a decent year form-wise and will be a good option as an impact sub forr Munster next year

Erroneous

Hypocritical for saying that people calling a decision a disgrace, and then use "far better" to describe the exact same amount of tries scored.

Fishooks12

Deleted User wrote: »

Erroneous

Hypocritical for saying that people calling a decision a disgrace, and then use "far better" to describe the exact same amount of tries scored.

It's not erroneous. It's not the whole case for argument but try scoring should be taken into account for wingers

Zebo has 12 tries to Gilroys 6 this season if I'm not mistaken?

Fishooks12

Fishooks12 wrote: »

It's not erroneous. It's not the whole case for argument but try scoring should be taken into account for wingers

Zebo has 12 tries to Gilroys 6 this season if I'm not mistaken?

Gilroy has played 2 seasons of rugby, both have scored 14 tries.

Gilroy has had 10 more senior appearances.

Fishooks12

Deleted User wrote: »

Gilroy has played 2 seasons of rugby, both have scored 14 tries.

Gilroy has had 10 more senior appearances.

This seasons number would be more relevant I would think

I'm not saying Gilroy only scoring six is a mark against him so I probably phrased that wrong. I shouldn't have compared the two

My point is that 12 tries in your debut season is pretty good on Zebo's part

Fishooks12

Fishooks12 wrote: »

This seasons number would be more relevant I would think

I'm not saying Gilroy only scoring six is a mark against him so I probably phrased that wrong. I shouldn't have compared the two

My point is that 12 tries in your debut season is pretty good on Zebo's part

Zebo scored no tries and earned a yellow card in his debut season
In his second season with a senior appearance he scored 2 tries in 9 games. (2 games scored in)
In his third season with senior appearances he has scored 12 tries in 23 games ( 9 games scored in) - pretty excellent stuff tbh

Gilroy's debut season saw 8 tries being scored in 14 games (6 games scored in)
second season has seen 6 tries in 29 games (6 games scored in)

He's clearly not the try scoring machine that I'm making him out to be, but I just wanted to highlight the point that he's actually shooting just fine. Zebo's record isn't "far better", if anything Gilroy has been consistent and not suffered from second season-syndrome. In the time honoured system of "wait and see" (courtesy of IRFU), 'Only time will tell'.

Tox56

Last night (although we didn't see it) is a good example of how try scoring alone, whilst obviously important, doesn't tell the whole story. Zebo was rarely mentioned all game, yet he scored 1 try to Gilroy's 2. Although Gilroy was mentioned almost all the time, created several opportunities, and seemed to be the catalyst for everything good Ireland did, the record books will not show that.

Obviously try scoring is important, especially for a winger, but there is more to it than that.

Scioch

Fishooks12 wrote: »

People have been calling the Zebo over Gilroy call a "disgrace". that's what I mean

I'd have Gilroy ahead of Zebo but there isn't nearly as much between the players as some would have you think. Gilroy is a slightly better defender but neither are anywhere near the complete article defensively yet

Zebo has a far better try scoring record playing in a very very average backline in comparison to Ulster's so I think that counts for a lot too

I'd have gone with both players, Gilroy if forced into a decision but I'm not in anyway displeased to see Zebo travel

I just think Munster players come in for much sterner critique on this forum from some posters than players from other provinces in relation to Ireland selection

DOC is another example. No way should he be near an Irish squad and his inclusion is a joke considering our other options. But some of the stuff people have said about him would lead you to believe he's some sort of donkey incapable of even playing the game anymore when in fact he's actually had a decent year form-wise and will be a good option as an impact sub forr Munster next year

I think another poster summed it up well with "Its a disgrace Gilroy wasnt included not that Zebo was". But given that the view is that it was one or the other and Gilroy did everyhting possible to warrant a place then its easy for the two to get mixed but still not really a reflection on Zebo.

I'd have taken both too and I dont begrudge Zebo a place but its hard not to be a bit pissed at Gilroys exclusion.

Again with DOC I dont think it has anything to do with munster, I think most peoples issue there was that his selection was keeping others back, agreed a lot of it was overly personal. I know DOC only did what was asked of him and you cant fault him for stepping in when asked.

I dont personally think Munster players get a harder time though I just think there's been a few bad decisions by Kidney in relation to Munster players that maybe make it look that way. So to me it does come across sometimes as Munster fans having a bit of of a chip on their shoulder about it more so than anyone else deliberately targeting Munster players. If that makes sense.

I know my sarcastic post didnt help anything but even that was more based on Kidney being a bit of an eejit than having anything against Munster.

CatFromHue

Deleted User wrote: »

Erroneous

Hypocritical for saying that people calling a decision a disgrace, and then use "far better" to describe the exact same amount of tries scored.

He has scored an awful lot of tries this year (from an Irish perspective that is).

If you take it he's scored 12 tries in 19 +4 for Munster but Munster have scored 60 tries in total this season (45 in Rabo 15 in the HEC). 20% of your teams tries scored is pretty impressive.

Gilroy (6 tries) and Kearney (3 tries) have scored far less this season on approx the same amount of game time.

I think when it actually comes down to percentage of your teams tries O Halloran from Connacht could possible be the best of the lot.

Fishooks12

Deleted User wrote: »

Zebo scored no tries and earned a yellow card in his debut season

He played one game against Connacht. Splitting hairs much?

Podge_irl

CatFromHue wrote: »

I think when it actually comes down to percentage of your teams tries O Halloran from Connacht could possible be the best of the lot.

The percentage of the teams tries scored by a single player is a statistic that reveals more about the style of play of the team then about the player in particular. Though Zebo certainly has a good rate.

Cpt_Blackbeard

Deleted User wrote: »

Erroneous

Hypocritical for saying that people calling a decision a disgrace, and then use "far better" to describe the exact same amount of tries scored.

Zebo has scored 14 tries is 33 (8 from the bench) professional appearances for Munster. Gilroy has scored 14 tries in 43 (3 from the bench) professional appearances for Ulster.

Zebo's try scoring record is clearly a good bit better than Gilroy's.

Fishooks12

Fishooks12 wrote: »

He played one game against Connacht. Splitting hairs much?

played 9 last season too...

If you're going to get antsy about people being exaggerative with using words like "disgrace", then people will probably take exception to you using the term debut to talk about Zebo's third season in red.

Fishooks12

Deleted User wrote: »

played 9 last season too...

If you're going to get antsy about people being exaggerative with using words like "disgrace", then people will probably take exception to you using the term debut to talk about Zebo's third season in red.

Yes because "debut" and "disgrace" are really similarly provocative words

"First season as an established" player PC enough so?

Plus would you not agree that this season is far more relevant?

Fishooks12

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Yes because "debut" and "disgrace" are really similarly provocative words

"First season as an established" player PC enough so?

disgrace is an exaggerative term to highlight a bad decision

debut is a first season.

This is boards.ie, you may find that exaggerative terms are used 125% of the time.

(see what I've done here?)

Use this liberally on almost all of these kind of words and you'll see the message as opposed to the wording. It makes for far easier use for all.