Ireland Tour to New Zealand 2012 Discussion thread

chippers

I have a feeling, like throwing Murray in the deep end, that Kidney might do the something similar with Zebo and give him a chance in one of latter tests. I think Zebo will fall into the category of one of the players that Kidney 'likes'.

molloyjh

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Both Gilroy and Zebo have been playing week-in week-out, Kearney has not?

Zebo has played 23 games this season for Munster, Kearney has played 21 for Leinster. Hardly a significant difference.

Podge_irl

Which games is an important factor as well though. I imagine Zebo played most of the HEC games.

TomLamp

Can we nip this "Zebo's scoring tries in a poor performing backline" waffle in the butt?

I think Fionn Carr proved that playing in a poor team can make someone look a lot better than they are.

And to be honest, I equate all posters who say being a winger is solely about scoring tries with those who thought that being an outhalf is solely about kicking. Zebo can score a try every two games but it will amount to nothing if he gives up tries and field position and makes a literary of mistakes every single game. Gilroy has exploited him at a HC quarter final and completely outplayed him internationally only yesterday. This season Gilroy has looked much better than Zebo.

To be honest if your judging solely on tries then maybe we should put Ian Madigan on the wing? Maybe Anthony Horgan was the greatest winger Ireland ever produced.

People are angry that Zebo has been selected because in most people's minds not only is Gilroy better than him but so is Dave Kearney. He should have been comfortably third choice for that spot.

profitius

TomLamp wrote: »

I think Fionn Carr proved that playing in a poor team can make someone look a lot better than they are.

The Zebo/Carr comparison is a good one. Both have good try scoring record but both have weaknesses to their game too. Carr if anything is a more dangerous attacker. He was scoring tries from nothing for Connacht but hasn't got anywhere near a Kidney squad.

boynesider

TBH the level of animosity towards Zebo I'm picking up on internet forums and from talking to rugby people is disheartening and completely out of proportion to the reality of the situation. Have a look back at some Munster match threads and you will find a barrage of comments from posters hoping that Zebo will be 'found out' and criticising him at even the slightest opportunity. I can even remember an Irish fan on another forum stating that he hopes Zebo breaks his leg and never plays for Ireland again.

Many are aggrieved that he has been picked over Gilroy, which is fair enough as a personal opinion (although this view baffles me as Dave Kearney is clearly ahead of both of them in terms of overall development, while O'Halloran is probably about equal to them, yet these names are hardly ever mentioned). But the level of ill will towards him goes so far beyond a simple low estimation about his worth as a rugby player that it makes me wonder is some other factor colouring people's opinions on him, perhaps even on an unconcious level?

The truth is he is a very raw and very talented young player, who has a ridiculous try scoring rate which must be balanced against the undeniable defensive deficiencies in his game when assessing him. Personally, despite the fact that I want to see Dave Kearney and Gilroy in the squad as well, and would rate Kearney as the superior player, I am very happy to see a young player like him getting a chance after spending the last few years pulling my hair out at Kidney's stifling conservatism, which is thankfully being shown up by the Welsh pro-youth policy and their ensuing success. There is nothing in me that wants to criticise the lad or wish that he is 'found out' as so many people seem to be doing.

Hagz

boynesider wrote: »

I can even remember an Irish fan on another forum stating that he hopes Zebo breaks his leg and never plays for Ireland again.

But the level of ill will towards him goes so far beyond a simple low estimation about his worth as a rugby player that it makes me wonder is some other factor colouring people's opinions on him, perhaps even on an unconcious level?

Thankfully that stuffs stays on other forums.

Tox56

profitius wrote: »

The Zebo/Carr comparison is a good one. Both have good try scoring record but both have weaknesses to their game too. Carr if anything is a more dangerous attacker. He was scoring tries from nothing for Connacht but hasn't got anywhere near a Kidney squad.

Carr doesn't seem close to the Leinster first 15, but when he was with Connacht there was outrage he wasn't being selected for Ireland. The situations aren't directly comparable, but it gives some perspective.

fitz

Hagz wrote: »

Thankfully that stuffs stays on other forums.

Absolutely.
I don't think anyone here, or any true Irish rugby fan, would have anything personal against Zebo. He's an exciting young player with bags of potential. He also has some areas to work on, areas which he hasn't really developed this season.

I'm with Emmett and molloyjh on this...people need to stop seeing criticism of the non-selection of Gilroy or Kearney as criticism of Zebo. That's not what it is, and failing to see that seems like wilfully looking for a reason to attack things that people aren't actually saying.

Fireball07

Tox56 wrote: »

Carr doesn't seem close to the Leinster first 15, but when he was with Connacht there was outrage he wasn't being selected for Ireland. The situations aren't directly comparable, but it gives some perspective.

That said, when Carr was scoring all those tries, I think he should have been included in an Ireland squad tbh. I mean form has to be worth something. There may have been deficiencies in his game, but it would have been worth including him.

It's a similar thing to Zebo now...he's not going to start a big game but being around the squad may have benefits for him in the future.


My opinion is the same as many others, I don't think there's much between them at all, I would have brought both of them and Kearney. I think we should have brought a 35-37 man squad because there are going to be injuries after a long season.


People who say it's a disgrace that Zebo is chosen over Gilroy are wrong...there's not that much between the players to make it a "disgrace". Also, based on his performance against the BaaBaas, it's not a head-to-head choice. Zebo was already in the squad, he wasn't going to be kicked out just because Gilroy played well. They should have both been brought, not at the expense of each other.

boynesider

Fireball07 wrote: »

That said, when Carr was scoring all those tries, I think he should have been included in an Ireland squad tbh. I mean form has to be worth something. There may have been deficiencies in his game, but it would have been worth including him.

It's a similar thing to Zebo now...he's not going to start a big game but being around the squad may have benefits for him in the future.


My opinion is the same as many others, I don't think there's much between them at all, I would have brought both of them and Kearney. I think we should have brought a 35-37 man squad because there are going to be injuries after a long season.


People who say it's a disgrace that Zebo is chosen over Gilroy are wrong...there's not that much between the players to make it a "disgrace". Also, based on his performance against the BaaBaas, it's not a head-to-head choice. Zebo was already in the squad, he wasn't going to be kicked out just because Gilroy played well. They should have both been brought, not at the expense of each other.

Absolutely right. No reason he couldn't have brought all 3 of them, or Madigan as well for that matter.

Fireball07

Fireball07 wrote: »

People who say it's a disgrace that Zebo is chosen over Gilroy are wrong...there's not that much between the players to make it a "disgrace".

fwiw - http://www.boards.ie/search/?q=disgrace&t=2056603709&sort=newest

16 posts containing the word disgrace, only ones by yourself have disgrace and Zebo in the same sentence until this one!

Where are these people?! They're not posting on here anyway...

Podge_irl

Fireball07 wrote: »

That said, when Carr was scoring all those tries, I think he should have been included in an Ireland squad tbh. I mean form has to be worth something. There may have been deficiencies in his game, but it would have been worth including him.

Which is my issue with the whole Zebo thing. I genuinely never thought Kidney had some kind of Munster bias when he came into the job, but Zebo, Murray and POM have all had a hell of an easier time breaking into the squad then other comparable players.

I'm just irritated at Kidney, not Zebo. Who I think is a currently flawed player but with a lot of potential and I have no issue with him travelling. I have issue with him travelling but Madigan and Gilroy sat on their arses.

Fireball07

Deleted User wrote: »

fwiw - http://www.boards.ie/search/?q=disgrace&t=2056603709&sort=newest

16 posts containing the word disgrace, only ones by yourself have disgrace and Zebo in the same sentence until this one!

Where are these people?! They're not posting on here anyway...

They mightn't have used that exact phrasing...but that was the meaning I gathered from it. Do you actually want me to quote some of them?

Podge_irl wrote: »

Which is my issue with the whole Zebo thing. I genuinely never thought Kidney had some kind of Munster bias when he came into the job, but Zebo, Murray and POM have all had a hell of an easier time breaking into the squad then other comparable players.

I'm just irritated at Kidney, not Zebo. Who I think is a currently flawed player but with a lot of potential and I have no issue with him travelling. I have issue with him travelling but Madigan and Gilroy sat on their arses.

I don't know if Kidney has a Munster bias, maybe he does...I don't even care. He just annoys me now. I've been very patient over the years, I don't even think Kidney is necessarily a bad coach, I just think it's time for change. We can't continue this way...we should be so much better than we are.

Podge_irl

Fireball07 wrote: »

I don't know if Kidney has a Munster bias, maybe he does...I don't even care. He just annoys me now. I've been very patient over the years, I don't even think Kidney is necessarily a bad coach, I just think it's time for change. We can't continue this way...we should be so much better than we are.

I don't know if he does either, I would find it quite odd if he did. Ultimately he's either biased (which I have a hard time believing despite mounting evidence) or just infuriatingly unpredictable. He'll stick with a certain group of players come hell or high water, then throw in a completely untried player at the drop of a hat. It's just...weird.

Fireball07

Fireball07 wrote: »

They mightn't have used that exact phrasing...but that was the meaning I gathered from it. Do you actually want me to quote some of them?

I'm not massively bothered, I have just seen more posts reacting to the supposed "Zebo travelling is a disgrace" than I have seen anyone saying such things!

If you can find one handy out, quote it, but if not, just stop mentioning it in every post or it'll never die off!

Fireball07

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm not massively bothered, I have just seen more posts reacting to the supposed "Zebo travelling is a disgrace" than I have seen anyone saying such things!

If you can find one handy out, quote it, but if not, just stop mentioning it in every post or it'll never die off!

That was actually the first time I mentioned it

But no, I don't have one "handy".


I'll just say again, I think Gilroy should have gone.



And Toner, Marshall, Madigan, Dave Kearney and Wallace.


And Danny Barnes :pac:

bilston

I know sometimes his selections can leave him open to accusations of bias but does anyone in their heart of hearts really believe he would sacrifice success with Ireland for some petty bias towards his home province? I just find it very hard to believe. I think he can be very loyal to certain players and previously these were often Munster players but he's also been kind to D'Arcy and previously Paddy Wallace (although he's bizarrely dumped him now while he's playing some great rugby!).

I think it's reaching the stage where it doesn't really matter what Deccie does, familiarity can lead to contempt and all that, four years is about as long as any international coach should be in charge IMO. The reason I think that is that the game moves on and coaches ideas become redundant over time, players move on as well who coaches base their gameplans around. We need fresh ideas and I've more or less come to the conclusion that Deccie won't be able to bring that required freshness to the table. I believe Deccie's decade was 2000-2010, but the game has evolved now as seen by Wales, Leinster and Clermont Auvergne, Ireland are playing like Munster in 2006 or indeed Ireland in 2009 and it appears that it just doesn't cut the mustard anymore.

Phonehead

The Zebo over Gilroy is baffling but also not unexpected when it comes to this Coach. I think Kidney has got caught up in the hype surrounding the only two decent chinks to grasp at from what was a very forgettable year for Munster. Great to see Tuohy there, but you would still expect the Munster reserve DOC to start with POC/Ryan.

At the end of the day we could have our selection of the best in Europe and I still would have zero confidence in Kidneys ability to muster a win against the All Blacks. We have our excuses for the losses anyways, 6 uncapped players - we were trying new things - end of a long hard season for the boys - we learned some valuable lessons (despite the 50% loss ratio we always seem to be learning but never teaching others of their failings)

Anyone else as excited about these tests as I am;)

Almaviva

So sick about this squad selection I am only now coming out of the denial stage.

(Zebo. Can anyone even make an attempt to explain his inclusion? Anyone else thinking Tom Tierney, Jeremy Staunton?)

Why is the IRFU getting it so wrong on the Kidney issue? Credit where it is due, the IRFU have done a fantastic job since the advent of professional rugby. Their strategic decisions such as the development of the provinces or the policy of keeping Irish players at home as far as at all possible, promotion of rugby, accademies and development of elite players from a limited pool, supporters clubs, investment in the club scene, overcomng the regional carve-ups and old north south friction that was around in the amateur days, and sparing no effort to bring talented coaching specialists in at all levels, has surpassed other nations, and allowed us to punch above our weight for over ten years.
On the national coach issue, they made a very shrewd decision when they appointed Gatland. They were ruthless and pragmatic when they removed him to install EOS, and similarly, avoided any delay when it ws time for EOS to go and give it to Kidney. Gatland and EOS brought Ireland up a level but in each case their time at coach had come to a natural end. All three appointements were correct and taken with the sole aim being the best interests of the Irish team and its success. And we have enjoyed it greatly.

But Kidney failed. WTF has gone wrong that they are not dealing with this issue? This squad selection is a further indictment of Kidneys incompetence following on from a run of 4 failed campaigns on the trot, and all evidence from the provincial performance indicating that his contribution is to ensure that his teams are less than the sum of the parts. When is the IRFU going to move is the only question in Irish rugby now.

I am now mad as hell. What happens in NZ is only a triffling side show.

WHAT HAS GONE WRONG IN THE IRFU ?????:mad:

molloyjh

bilston wrote: »

I know sometimes his selections can leave him open to accusations of bias but does anyone in their heart of hearts really believe he would sacrifice success with Ireland for some petty bias towards his home province?

I would imagine that anyone saying he is biased really means that he has red blinkers on that skew how he perceives players, meaning he thinks he's picking the right players by picking the Munster lads.

BTW I'm not saying he is biased. I'd have argued against it for a long time but the fact that Murray, POM and Zebo have gotten into the side quite easily when the likes of Touhy, McCarthy, Gilroy, Cave, D Kearney etc, etc seem to be having such a hard time of it despite being as good, if not better, than their Munster counterparts is making me wonder at this stage. It's not to say the Munster lads don't deserve it (although I still have issues with the Murray selection for the RWC), just that they seem to have it easier.

Hagz

I wouldn't be suspicious of bias. Kidney isn't going to sacrifice Ireland's success. I would just be suspicious that his personal link with Munster can affect how he views player performance (although I suppose that is bias, but not intentional bias). As mollyjh pointed out, POM, Zebo and Murray have seemed to move into the squad without much difficulty.

Fishooks12

Almaviva wrote: »

So sick about this squad selection I am only now coming out of the denial stage.

(Zebo. Can anyone even make an attempt to explain his inclusion? Anyone else thinking Tom Tierney, Jeremy Staunton?)

Why is the IRFU getting it so wrong on the Kidney issue? Credit where it is due, the IRFU have done a fantastic job since the advent of professional rugby. Their strategic decisions such as the development of the provinces or the policy of keeping Irish players at home as far as at all possible, promotion of rugby, accademies and development of elite players from a limited pool, supporters clubs, investment in the club scene, overcomng the regional carve-ups and old north south friction that was around in the amateur days, and sparing no effort to bring talented coaching specialists in at all levels, has surpassed other nations, and allowed us to punch above our weight for over ten years.
On the national coach issue, they made a very shrewd decision when they appointed Gatland. They were ruthless and pragmatic when they removed him to install EOS, and similarly, avoided any delay when it ws time for EOS to go and give it to Kidney. Gatland and EOS brought Ireland up a level but in each case their time at coach had come to a natural end. All three appointements were correct and taken with the sole aim being the best interests of the Irish team and its success. And we have enjoyed it greatly.

But Kidney failed. WTF has gone wrong that they are not dealing with this issue? This squad selection is a further indictment of Kidneys incompetence following on from a run of 4 failed campaigns on the trot, and all evidence from the provincial performance indicating that his contribution is to ensure that his teams are less than the sum of the parts. When is the IRFU going to move is the only question in Irish rugby now.

I am now mad as hell. What happens in NZ is only a triffling side show.

WHAT HAS GONE WRONG IN THE IRFU ?????:mad:

He's huge potential and a ridiculously good try scoring record this season

Cpt_Blackbeard

Hagz wrote: »

I wouldn't be suspicious of bias. Kidney isn't going to sacrifice Ireland's success. I would just be suspicious that his personal link with Munster can affect how he views player performance (although I suppose that is bias, but not intentional bias). As mollyjh pointed out, POM, Zebo and Murray have seemed to move into the squad without much difficulty.

Maybe they are just better than their counterparts from the other provinces? Its not like they've been immediately been thrown in as first choice. They have all been involved in the Irish setup for a few weeks before they have been promoted ahead of any competitors. Maybe they have just performed in training?

There are other coaches (Kiss/Smal) who would be heavily involved in any selection process. Are they biased too?

Seph503

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Maybe they are just better than their counterparts from the other provinces? Its not like they've been immediately been thrown in as first choice. They have all been involved in the Irish setup for a few weeks before they have been promoted ahead of any competitors. Maybe they have just performed in training?

There are other coaches (Kiss/Smal) who would be heavily involved in any selection process. Are they biased too?

I think people's main "complaint" if you like is the fact that Dave Kearney was involved in 6N matchday squad and has now been leap-frogged and generally speaking most can't understand why or how.

totallegend

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0531/1224316989266.html

Declan Kidney wrote:

It’s brilliant. It’s like bungee jumping. It’s the best place to go. It’ll be 12 years before any goes again (sic).
For some of us it will be the only time we tour New Zealand in our careers. Imagine going through your career without doing that. Simon is the youngest at 21. If he is still there at 33 he’ll be doing well. Gee, not to go down there would like having a hole in your CV.

Eh? Do we not play in New Zealand every 2-3 years?? Am I missing something?

Seph503

totallegend wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0531/1224316989266.html


Eh? Do we not play in New Zealand every 2-3 years?? Am I missing something?

You know...I started reading that in like a little kid excited voice. But then I realised it was supposed to be DK talking and when I put his voice on it it sounds even more bizarre.

thomond2006

totallegend wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0531/1224316989266.html


Eh? Do we not play in New Zealand every 2-3 years?? Am I missing something?

Was Kidney drunk? I can't picture him saying any of that!

Mr.Applepie

molloyjh wrote: »

I would imagine that anyone saying he is biased really means that he has red blinkers on that skew how he perceives players, meaning he thinks he's picking the right players by picking the Munster lads.

BTW I'm not saying he is biased. I'd have argued against it for a long time but the fact that Murray, POM and Zebo have gotten into the side quite easily when the likes of Touhy, McCarthy, Gilroy, Cave, D Kearney etc, etc seem to be having such a hard time of it despite being as good, if not better, than their Munster counterparts is making me wonder at this stage. It's not to say the Munster lads don't deserve it (although I still have issues with the Murray selection for the RWC), just that they seem to have it easier.

The way I see it Kidney's bias is more an unconscious thing. It's like me picking the team. I'd see every Leinster game possible and but only watch Ulster/Munster games when I have free time. Therefore in my head I might put D Kearney ahead of Gilroy because I've seen him more. Ulster players need to play out of their skin for a year before they get recognition

twinytwo

Fishooks12 wrote: »

He's huge potential and a ridiculously good try scoring record this season

yes but he only plays well when munster are on top... ie the second game against northampton. He was so out of his dept playing for the wolfhounds it was hilarious. Young kearney however, while he dosent dosent have the try scoring record has been far superior this season. He should be going to NZ.

Zebo cant defend end of.... against the ABS we are going to have a bad enough time without ferris, bowe and poc. the last thing we need if he plays is jane/dagg/kahui etc ghosting past him like he isnt even there.

At the end of the day if we want a chance of winning, eveyone needs to defend like demons.... push come to shove sexton darcy drico trimble earls kearney etc can all do this Zebo cannot