Ireland Tour to New Zealand 2012 Discussion thread

totallegend

durkadurka wrote: »

Bad for the tour. Good for Paulie. In terms of his career longevity it might not be such a bad thing .

Correct; it's been a while since he had any sort of prolonged run of fitness, a few extra weeks of holidays will do him good.

In terms of the tour, well, it significantly reduces our chances of winning but at least it guarantees that Tuohy will get a jersey (even if it is #19) and the piecemeal squad development will inch along another bit.

On the other hand, all these injuries give DK a ready-made excuse if we don't perform. Hmmm.

Teferi

We very rarely lose really badly to New Zealand. It's usually within a 10 - 20 point gap which isn't bad. Could be better, but isn't bad either. Since 2001 I think we've only been steam rolled by them 3 or 4 times.

bilston

.ak wrote: »

I'm calling it now. Second test will be 47-21 to NZ.

That doesn't bode well for the 3rd test.

I'm calling it as...

1st test NZ 28-16 Ire (will be tight for 70 mins)
2nd test NZ 38-15 Ire (stroll for the ABs)
3rd test NZ 54-17 Ire (a rout as injuries take their toll)

Teferi

totallegend wrote: »

On the other hand, all these injuries give DK a ready-made excuse if we don't perform. Hmmm.

No point in even listening to him.

If we win/draw a match then he'll be saying he was always building a squad for the future and he was right to give the young lads a chance. He will mention nothing of the injuries.

If we lose all three matches then he'll just blame the injuries.

bilston

Teferi wrote: »

We very rarely lose really badly to New Zealand. It's usually within a 10 - 20 point gap which isn't bad. Could be better, but isn't bad either. Since 2001 I think we've only been steam rolled by them 3 or 4 times.

Yeah but by the time we get to the 3rd test we could missing a lot of front line players.

GerM

Teferi wrote: »

We very rarely lose really badly to New Zealand. It's usually within a 10 - 20 point gap which isn't bad. Could be better, but isn't bad either. Since 2001 I think we've only been steam rolled by them 3 or 4 times.

So about half the times we've played them?

We had a spell when BOD, POC, Darce, Easterby etc. were on fire and we pushed them close for an hour before falling away. Generally, they've comprehensively beaten us though and normally whilst giving some new caps. I'd consider a 20 point gap a heavy enough beating between two top tier nations (last three defeats have been 20, 38 and 19 point defeats). If Australia or South Africa (who we've beaten regularly in the past 10 years) beat us by such a margin we'd consider it a heavy defeat.

We have to stop giving NZ such status by thinking that getting within a couple of scores is a good result.

molloyjh

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Maybe they are just better than their counterparts from the other provinces? Its not like they've been immediately been thrown in as first choice. They have all been involved in the Irish setup for a few weeks before they have been promoted ahead of any competitors. Maybe they have just performed in training?

There are other coaches (Kiss/Smal) who would be heavily involved in any selection process. Are they biased too?

Murray was pretty much immediately thrown in as first choice. Heaven forbid we put Reddan and Sexton together for a run of games.

I don't want to believe there is a bias, but look how quickly Ryan got into the national squad compared to the trouble Tuohy is having. Or Henrys difficulty compared to POM. Zebo compared to Gilroy. I'm not saying all these guys should be ahead of the Munster lads, just that they should all be relatively equal in the manner in which they break into the squad. But the Munster lads are having an easier time getting the recognition. I've a lot of time for Ryan in particular, I think he's class and should be one of our first choice locks. But I also think Tuohy should be getting more of a look in than he is.

jm08 wrote: »

Might be just as simple that they are bringing one or two young players for the experience (who won't get gametime). Dave Kearney got a bit of that in the 6Ns, Zebo now, and it could be Gilroy's turn in the autumn. Factor in that its a very depleted Ulster team going down to NZ and considering that Paddy Jackson was withdrawn by Ulster from the U20s, it might be a case that Ulster have requested to keep as many players as possible at home so that they can get a decent rest and prepare with their new coach for the next season. Gilroy, for a very young player has played a lot of big games this season.

Apart from being a good try scorer, Zebo is pretty good in claiming restarts (in the Northampton match he reclaimed 2/3 which led to trys). Not too sure how good in the air Gilroy is as well - we'll be missing a Bowe/Shaggy type player on this trip and Zebo is the closest to them in style.

The idea of bringing 1 of each of the 3 along to hold tackle bags in different series may not be that far fetched. But it would be total madness. If they are going to be included they should play. And if we have 3 good prospects they should be rotated within a single series to see how they get on.

As for Zebo being the best in the air, I would say D Kearney fits that bill far better. He's very solid in the air, has seriously good upper body strength and has played a good deal at FB for the Leinster As. Without question Zebo has that "nose for the line" that Earls also has, but outside of that he still has work to do. Kearney lacks that same finishing ability but gives more around the park. From what I've seen of Gilroy he's a little bit in between the two.

irishbucsfan

I still don't understand how Kidney could watch us beat England last year and how well our half backs played and then immediately drop Reddan for Murray... Until the Australia win... And then drop Reddan for Murray again!

I don't think ill ever understand that.

ouncer

being a connacht fan I'm of the opinion that their top try scorer O'Halloran could easily be considered a better player than Gilroy or Zebo. Consider that he doesn't have the high profile support players that Zebo and Gilroy have in their home provinces and you begin to understand how well this lad has done this year.

Also while Rob Kearney has been outstanding this year, Gavin Duffy has been a close second to him with impressive performances all year long, once again without the recognition

Tox56

ouncer wrote: »

being a connacht fan I'm of the opinion that their top try scorer O'Halloran could easily be considered a better player than Gilroy or Zebo. Consider that he doesn't have the high profile support players that Zebo and Gilroy have in their home provinces and you begin to understand how well this lad has done this year.

Also while Rob Kearney has been outstanding this year, Gavin Duffy has been a close second to him with impressive performances all year long, once again without the recognition

Same thing was said about Carr when he was with Connacht, and he can't even break into Leinster nevermind Ireland.

Having said that I think TOH is a better, but you can't read that much into his lack of star quality teammates. As I say though, I think TOH is being unfairly ignored.

CIARAN_BOYLE

ouncer wrote: »

being a connacht fan I'm of the opinion that their top try scorer O'Halloran could easily be considered a better player than Gilroy or Zebo. Consider that he doesn't have the high profile support players that Zebo and Gilroy have in their home provinces and you begin to understand how well this lad has done this year.

You mightn't agree with this opinion but I think that a good player in a relatively poor team will always get a lot of tries because they are the teams go to man. It was especially evident with Carr when he was at Connacht the teams main tactic was give the ball to Carr and hope he does something. He probably got twice as many touches of the ball as other wingers.

That said TOH is a good winger and right up there with Gilroy Kearney and Zebo but not necessarily better than either.

GerM

ouncer wrote: »

Also while Rob Kearney has been outstanding this year, Gavin Duffy has been a close second to him with impressive performances all year long, once again without the recognition

Duffy has been very good. His form has flown under the radar and, given that he's a fullback that covers across the back line, they could use someone with his versatility. I can only assume that DK is of the opinion that he's not really any better than his other options and, at 31 this year, sees no point in bringing him along. If that's the logic though, it isn't being applied across the board. I definitely think we should be bringing someone else with significant recent experience at 15 that can play wing rather than the other way around.

Teferi

GerM wrote: »

We have to stop giving NZ such status by thinking that getting within a couple of scores is a good result.

I agree with you and with our current crop of player we should be aiming to win every match. Unfortunately though we have a Kidney problem.

GerM

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

You mightn't agree with this opinion but I think that a good player in a relatively poor team will always get a lot of tries because they are the teams go to man. It was especially evident with Carr when he was at Connacht the teams main tactic was give the ball to Carr and hope he does something. He probably got twice as many touches of the ball as other wingers.

That said TOH is a good winger and right up there with Gilroy Kearney and Zebo but not necessarily better than either.

People often talk about how players look good when they're part of a great side. I tend to agree with you. A good player will stand out even more when they're part of a mediocre side. Not meaning to pick on Connacht but they're an easy reference point and the likes of Carr, Hagan, O'Sullivan, McCarthy and Duffy are easy examples of players that have looked very good at Connacht and, whilst not being bad at other sides, have never made close to the same impact elsewhere.

bamboozle

sydthebeat wrote: »

the more i look at the squad the more i fear for the results.

Its very hard to pick any area where we could possibly have the upper hand on the AB's. If Ross' injury rules him out... *gulp*

if/when DOC gets picked we'll have a serious upper hand on 'unseen work' :mad:

profitius

TOH is up there with Gilroy, Zebo and D Kearney. Playing for an unfashionable team means he is less likely to be called up. It doesn't stop the Welsh picking Lydiate and Chatteris but then again, they've different selectors.

You could argue that Zebo is the most inconsistent and error prone of those 4 players.

bamboozle

ouncer wrote: »

being a connacht fan I'm of the opinion that their top try scorer O'Halloran could easily be considered a better player than Gilroy or Zebo. Consider that he doesn't have the high profile support players that Zebo and Gilroy have in their home provinces and you begin to understand how well this lad has done this year.

Also while Rob Kearney has been outstanding this year, Gavin Duffy has been a close second to him with impressive performances all year long, once again without the recognition

would agree with you on both counts, i'd also suggest Muldoon would be worth bringing along to add some fire to the trench warfare.

profitius

GerM wrote: »

Duffy has been very good. His form has flown under the radar and, given that he's a fullback that covers across the back line, they could use someone with his versatility. I can only assume that DK is of the opinion that he's not really any better than his other options and, at 31 this year, sees no point in bringing him along. If that's the logic though, it isn't being applied across the board. I definitely think we should be bringing someone else with significant recent experience at 15 that can play wing rather than the other way around.

Its hard to find any pattern among Kidney selections. The only thing I can see is he doesn't pay much attention to form and he values athletes over technical ability in general.

leftleg

bamboozle wrote: »

if/when DOC gets picked we'll have a serious upper hand on 'unseen work' :mad:

You mean standing around waiting for the single chance to do the choke tackle

bilston

O'Halloran and Griffin are unlucky in that they seem to be forgotten baout very easily. They're both very good players although it's a bit of stretch to that TOH is easily better than Gilroy or Zebo, but he's certainly a good player.

irishbucsfan

Players flaws are less obvious in connacht. I hope TOH can go on to become an international winger at the standard of the others but I don't think he's even as good as Carr yet.

Zzippy

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Players flaws are less obvious in connacht. I hope TOH can go on to become an international winger at the standard of the others but I don't think he's even as good as Carr yet.

I don't understand this. I can see how a good player might stand out more, but how would a player's flaws be less obvious? Surely a flaw would be more exposed in a poorer team, as the teammates around you are not as good at covering for your mistakes?

Think TOH still has a lot of developing to do yet, and Gilroy and Zebo are still ahead of him alright, but give him a year or two and he won't be far from the Irish squad. He doesn't have Carr's step, but he has a much better defence, is brilliant in the air and has better positional sense. Needs to learn to pick his lines better.

Carr has a brilliant step, is lightning quick and has a great eye for the try line, but his defence is not great, his positional sense was never that good, and he's too small to command high balls in the air like TOH does. Different players, we were delighted to have Carr here, but I think TOH will turn out to be a better player.

dtpc191991

sydthebeat wrote: »

the more i look at the squad the more i fear for the results.

Its very hard to pick any area where we could possibly have the upper hand on the AB's. If Ross' injury rules him out... *gulp*

I'd say Kearney is even with Dagg and to be honest if BOD keeps playing the way he did in the HC we will have to upper hand on them at 13.

Hagz

dtpc191991 wrote: »

I'd say Kearney is even with Dagg and to be honest if BOD keeps playing the way he did in the HC we will have to upper hand on them at 13.

Dagg is way more of an attacking threat than Kearney though. And Smith has been better than O'Driscoll for a long time now. Hopefully they play Fruen.

GerM

Zzippy wrote: »

I don't understand this. I can see how a good player might stand out more, but how would a player's flaws be less obvious? Surely a flaw would be more exposed in a poorer team, as the teammates around you are not as good at covering for your mistakes?

I assume IBF means that if the overall standard is lower, your own mistakes are going to blend in more. If you have 5 average passers then the standard won't stick out but put one of them in a great passing side and their passing will suddenly look quite poor. Someone like Fionn Carr was an electric attacker at Connacht. He stood out almost every week because he was capable of things nobody else was. Put him in the Leinster back line and he's not as potent and his errors become as noticeable to the average spectator as his attacking prowess.

Ardillaun

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

You mightn't agree with this opinion but I think that a good player in a relatively poor team will always get a lot of tries because they are the teams go to man. It was especially evident with Carr when he was at Connacht the teams main tactic was give the ball to Carr and hope he does something. He probably got twice as many touches of the ball as other wingers.

That said TOH is a good winger and right up there with Gilroy Kearney and Zebo but not necessarily better than either.

There's not an enormous amount riding on this series. We should experiment, avoid injury and not take things too seriously. I'd like to have seen both Gilroy and Zebo going - they're our most exciting prospects on the wing since Bowe.

I would have included Downey for a bit of ballast in the middle at inside or outside centre. That AB centre partnership is still very good but Smith looked jiggered by the end of the WC final against Rougerie and neither have been entirely comfortable against big French centres over the years.

trackguy

Ardillaun wrote: »

There's not an enormous amount riding on this series. We should experiment

Yep - not going to happen though.

Hugh Farrelly making more excuses for Kidney today in the Indo. Sorry if this has been posted already

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/hugh-farrelly-all-black-battles-to-reveal-true-mettle-of-kidneys-motley-crew-3124562.html

Shelflife

Interesting that kidney claps himself on the back for 11 changes since the world cup.
8 of those changes are due to injury and 1 retirement, so in effect there was two changes, Wallace out and Cullen out, hardly surprising seen as he rarely played them in the WC anyway.

We travel with 3 replacement props that are uncapped because we stuck with Buckley when even my wife knew that he wasnt up to that level.

Also ironic that the two he dropped are the hc winning capt and Wallace is prob playing some of his best rugby at the moment.

Bizarre!

Podge_irl

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Zebo has scored 14 tries is 33 (8 from the bench) professional appearances for Munster. Gilroy has scored 14 tries in 43 (3 from the bench) professional appearances for Ulster.

Zebo's try scoring record is clearly a good bit better than Gilroy's.

Not that I want to bring the comparison of try scoring records back up, but in Gilroy's first season his record was

Played 14 Tries 8

Ireland call ups 0

The issue is not Zebo (who I think is a talented and potential future international, though that will definitely depend on the coaching he recieves), but Kidney and his odd selections.

Kilkenny14

Kidney's selections always seem to lacking in some department, but the injury situation hasn't helped him, so I have sympathy for him.

Overall, I am glad I couldn't go to the first test in Auckland like I planned; it's looking very dodgy right now.