Ireland Tour to New Zealand 2012 Discussion thread

Kilkenny14

The scrum battle isn't the key battle on Saturday. That honour goes to the half backs; I just hope Reddan gets the nod ahead of Murray.

irishbucsfan

Kilkenny14 wrote: »

The scrum battle isn't the key battle on Saturday. That honour goes to the half backs; I just hope Reddan gets the nod ahead of Murray.

That would be a pleasant surprise.

JRant

Kilkenny14 wrote: »

The scrum battle isn't the key battle on Saturday. That honour goes to the half backs; I just hope Reddan gets the nod ahead of Murray.

I'd be absolutely amazed if Murray doesn't start and if he does we are going to get murdered at the breakdown. NZ rugby is all about attacking the breakdown so if your SH is slow to get there or hangs around the back of rucks then you've no hope against them. Unfortunately we'll have the most pedestrian 9 in international rugby starting for us.
Really hope Touhy is picked to partner Ryan as I think they could work very well together and would like to see Henry start at 7 with SOB back at 6.

totallegend

Kilkenny14 wrote: »

The scrum battle isn't the key battle on Saturday. That honour goes to the half backs; I just hope Reddan gets the nod ahead of Murray.

He will on his b*llocks. I would be surprised if Kidney has ever picked Reddan when there has been a credible alternative available and I'd be even more surprised if it happens this weekend.

GerM

I would be of the opinion that, as with most games, the key battle will be the breakdown. Their halfbacks can’t perform if they’re living off scraps. NZ live off the breakdown, generating quick ball from their own possession and turnover ball from the opposition. That’s when they’re at their most dangerous. It’s no coincidence that they’ve possessed probably the single best openside flankers in the game for the last 25 years. It’s a dynasty of breakdown play with Michael Jones passing it to Kronfeld passing it to McCaw. They have a pack that can rumble along with the most physical and take it on up front but once they choose to switch it and move the ball it’s like flicking a switch. Every player knows their role and executes it. Players like Brad Thorn aren’t there to carry or get over the ball, they know they’re in there to clear out and ruck and do so with ferocity. If we’re to stand a chance, we’ll need to match them in this area at the very least. With Thorn and Kaino gone, it will be our best ever opportunity to do so but Vito is no mug at all and will move seamlessly in, I think and, if chosen, Retallick is more than capable of filling the role vacated by Thorn.

I think we have one shot at them, in the opening match. Hansen’s first game will have a lot of pressure and there will be new combinations. If we can match them up front physically, we’ve a chance but without POC and Ferris that looks like a bridge too far. Can only wait in hope.

Podge_irl

If anyone read the IT today you'll see Thornley suggesting Murray should start on Saturday because of his excellent performance when he started against Aus in the world cup. So now he's just making stuff up to defend Kidney's selections.

irishbucsfan

Podge_irl wrote: »

If anyone read the IT today you'll see Thornley suggesting Murray should start on Saturday because of his excellent performance when he started against Aus in the world cup. So now he's just making stuff up to defend Kidney's selections.

:pac:

He's become a truly poor journalist.

Teferi

"He was really good in that game he played a year ago".

The same logic that Kidney used with TOL.

Quint2010

Podge_irl wrote: »

If anyone read the IT today you'll see Thornley suggesting Murray should start on Saturday because of his excellent performance when he started against Aus in the world cup. So now he's just making stuff up to defend Kidney's selections.

Reddan started that match did he not?

totallegend

Quint2010 wrote: »

Reddan started that match did he not?

Yes, he did. Murray came on and was pants. Here's what I said at the time of the Australia game:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=74616204&postcount=90

I have seen nothing this season that tells me Murray has improved.

thomond2006

Murray didn't even start that match, I remember he had a try disallowed at the very end and roared "****!"

Seph503

Quint2010 wrote: »

Reddan started that match did he not?

That's why it's hilarious:pac:

irishbucsfan

Yep Reddan started and we won. And then Kidney celebrated in his usual fashion of dropping Reddan as quickly as possible.

JustinDee

Podge_irl wrote: »

If anyone read the IT today you'll see Thornley suggesting Murray should start on Saturday because of his excellent performance when he started against Aus in the world cup. So now he's just making stuff up to defend Kidney's selections.

Murray had a great game also last week against the Barbarians. He's not in the poor vein of form that some here believe.
Edit: Thats my opinion, by the way. Just an opinion, like anyone's.

irishbucsfan

JustinDee wrote: »

Murray had a great game also last week against the Barbarians. He's not in the poor vein of form that some here believe.
Edit: Thats my opinion, by the way. Just an opinion, like anyone's.

Well it's Gerry Thornleys opinion that Conor Murray started against Australia!

JustinDee

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Well it's Gerry Thornleys opinion that Conor Murray started against Australia!

He also said in an article that he was on the way up to Sydney when he was in Brisbane once too. Nothing surprises me there.

sandyfordboi

I think i either read this or seen this on tv a couple weeks ago but the jist of what i saw was they compared kidneys selections to how Ian Mcgeehan picked his players for the last lions tour! basically they said he picked players in pods say the Welsh fly half and scrum half, the English second rows just to provide continuity in test matches as they would be used to playing with each other. So when I seen this I wondered why this dosent apply to Ireland i.e picking say sexton and reddan together amongst other positions! sorry I am a relative newb to rugby so any help would be appreciated!

irishbucsfan

sandyfordboi wrote: »

I think i either read this or seen this on tv a couple weeks ago but the jist of what i saw was they compared kidneys selections to how Ian Mcgeehan picked his players for the last lions tour! basically they said he picked players in pods say the Welsh fly half and scrum half, the English second rows just to provide continuity in test matches as they would be used to playing with each other. So when I seen this I wondered why this dosent apply to Ireland i.e picking say sexton and reddan together amongst other positions! sorry I am a relative newb to rugby so any help would be appreciated!

A good few people have been asking this question for a while.

I suppose the nature of the Irish setup means that our payers should be capable of integrating much faster than other representative sides. Our players are contracted to Ireland and should train together more often. So Kidneys argument would be that Sexton and Murray are more suited to each other than they would have been if they were from different countries playing for the lions. So the need to pick experienced units is less evident.

fitz

JustinDee wrote: »

Murray had a great game also last week against the Barbarians. He's not in the poor vein of form that some here believe.
Edit: Thats my opinion, by the way. Just an opinion, like anyone's.

I don't think Murray has had a great season, but I think some fresh coaching might see him get rid of the obvious flaws in his play (too slow to the breakdown, gets too involved in rucks). I wouldn't write him off like some posters, and his form may be better than some are saying, but he still shouldn't start ahead of Reddan, who has had a much better season and provides the quick service we'll need to stop the All Blacks from stealing any kind of slow ball at the breakdown.

As usual, I think people's frustrations with the (admittedly unannouced) selection policies come across as critical of the player they believe shouldn't be starting ahead of the more obvious choice.

I think the Murray over Reddan one is the most frustrating selection of the last year, as with Reddan and Sexton starting, we've played our best rugby.
A blind man on the back of a galloping horse could see that.

Foxtrol

sandyfordboi wrote: »

I think i either read this or seen this on tv a couple weeks ago but the jist of what i saw was they compared kidneys selections to how Ian Mcgeehan picked his players for the last lions tour! basically they said he picked players in pods say the Welsh fly half and scrum half, the English second rows just to provide continuity in test matches as they would be used to playing with each other. So when I seen this I wondered why this dosent apply to Ireland i.e picking say sexton and reddan together amongst other positions! sorry I am a relative newb to rugby so any help would be appreciated!

Kidney being his usual consistently inconsistent self applies this logic when it suits him but then completely ignores it at other times, even when the disparity in player performances merit the other combination being picked even more. (eg DOC with POC but not Reddan with Sexton)

CatFromHue

JustinDee wrote: »

Murray had a great game also last week against the Barbarians. He's not in the poor vein of form that some here believe.
Edit: Thats my opinion, by the way. Just an opinion, like anyone's.

It's unfortunate that no one here saw that game.

I personally didn't think he'd a great run in with Munster.

Podge_irl

JustinDee wrote: »

Murray had a great game also last week against the Barbarians. He's not in the poor vein of form that some here believe.
Edit: Thats my opinion, by the way. Just an opinion, like anyone's.

Well I didn't see that game but he was quite good in the France 6N game til he got injured too. When he concentrates on being a scrum half rather then an auxiliary flanker he's a good player.

My comment was more a critique of Thornley.

irishbucsfan

The rule changes are really going to affect Murray. I can just envisage him making mistakes as he is out under pressure by refs to use the ball. The rules will favour guys like Boss who are natural decision makers.

However hopefully the new Shane Warney coach will sculpt him into the world class 9 that he could become before it makes a massive impact.

sandyfordboi

Ah right thanks guys I get the picture! So whats the best case scenario then with regards to his team selection then for the first test?

Leslie91

Sorry if this has been discussed already but is RTE showing the test matches live or can one only see these live on Sky?.

totallegend

Podge_irl wrote: »

Well I didn't see that game but he was quite good in the France 6N game til he got injured too. When he concentrates on being a scrum half rather then an auxiliary flanker he's a good player.

Exactly. I've never seen a scrum-half so keen to get involved in rucks and it's very frustrating. He definitely has the attributes to be a good SH but he doesn't use them properly, whether that's through lack of experience or poor coaching I don't know, but he's not making the most of his ability at the moment.

It would be nice to think that Stringer could assume some sort of mentor role for Murray next season; he was the master of following the play, getting to the base of the ruck and getting the ball out quickly, so if he could pass on those skills to Murray, it would be a massive step in the right direction.

fitz

totallegend wrote: »

Exactly. I've never seen a scrum-half so keen to get involved in rucks and it's very frustrating. He definitely has the attributes to be a good SH but he doesn't use them properly, whether that's through lack of experience or poor coaching I don't know, but he's not making the most of his ability at the moment.

It would be nice to think that Stringer could assume some sort of mentor role for Murray next season; he was the master of following the play, getting to the base of the ruck and getting the ball out quickly, so if he could pass on those skills to Murray, it would be a massive step in the right direction.

Given the common nature of TOL's "speed" from the base of the ruck, you'd have to wonder about the coaching, and why this aspect of both their games hasn't been rectified at provincial level.

Fingers crossed Penney and co. can do the business in terms of maximising the potential of the Munster lads next season...

totallegend

fitz wrote: »

Given the common nature of TOL's "speed" from the base of the ruck, you'd have to wonder about the coaching, and why this aspect of both their games hasn't been rectified at provincial level.

When prolonged ruck-inspection and ponderous service is rewarded by consistent international selection, why would they (the players) try to rectify it? Don't forget, were it not for TOL's self-immolation against France in August, he'd have been first-choice at the World Cup.

And at provincial level, the Munster tactic this season of two-man forward pods taking it on and crashing into the fringe defence doesn't rely on quick service from the SH, so as far as Munster were concerned, all was rosy in the garden.

Fishooks12

15 Kearney
14 Trimble
13 BOD
12 Darcy
11 Earls
10 Sexton
9 Murray
8 Heaslip
7 SOB
6 POM
5 D Ryan
4 D Tuohy
3 Fitzpatrick
2 Best
1 Healy

I'd be very surprised if that isn't the team for Saturday.

irishbucsfan

Fishooks12 wrote: »

15 Kearney
14 Trimble
13 BOD
12 Darcy
11 Earls
10 Sexton
9 Murray
8 Heaslip
7 SOB
6 POM
5 D Ryan
4 D Tuohy
3 Fitzpatrick
2 Best
1 Healy

I'd be very surprised if that isn't the team for Saturday.

Possibly DOC and Tuohy with Ryan at 6