Ireland Tour to New Zealand 2012 Discussion thread

CatFromHue

Fishooks12 wrote: »

DOC wasn't behind MOD this year tbf

Towards the end of the season I think he was anyway. Away to Lanelli it was POC and MOD starting with DOC on the bench which was a pretty important game for Munster for the final Rabo run in places. I think MOD was better against Glasgow at home too.

I've nothing against DOC but as you said there are better options at the moment.

Podge_irl

If Kidney brings on ROG and moves Sexton to 12 again I'll ****ing scream.

I've resigned myself to DOC starting but it's a ludicrous situation. And if deccie says it's for his experience then I'd point him to the Ospreys semi for an example of how useless he is in that regard. He's a decent lock but as a senior player that day he disappeared.

mfceiling

Quint2010 wrote: »

The only positive thing I would say on the scrum half selection is that Reddan is a good man to have in reserve to quicken the game up.

Not much point bringing him on to quicken the game when there's an hour gone, we're 10-15 points behind and sexton, bod and d'arcy are slowing up after a busy last few weeks....or am I being pessimistic?

irishbucsfan

mfceiling wrote: »

Quint2010 wrote: »

The only positive thing I would say on the scrum half selection is that Reddan is a good man to have in reserve to quicken the game up.

Not much point bringing him on to quicken the game when there's an hour gone, we're 10-15 points behind and sexton, bod and d'arcy are slowing up after a busy last few weeks....or am I being pessimistic?

I think you're being a little too pessimistic. Our starting side could stay close for 60 minutes

Teferi

Yeah it's a silly idea tbh. Better to start him and inject pace into the proceedings.

Quint2010

I think Reddan coming off the bench is better than Murray coming off the bench. Isn't it what Schmidt does from time to time in tough away games?

Scioch

Quint2010 wrote: »

I think Reddan coming off the bench is better than Murray coming off the bench. Isn't it what Schmidt does from time to time in tough away games?

Reddan's pace cant really be utilised at that stage though unless the opposition tire and slow (which NZ wont do). I personally think its suicide to base a game against NZ on staying close for 60 minutes and then trying to inject pace late in the game. We wont be and never have been able to pull it off very well against other top teams. When our plan of hang in there looks like a dud early in the second half we fall to bits.

We need to stick it to them from the start and try get and keep a lead. Live dangerously if need be. Bring Murray on to close ranks and defend in the last 15. Maybe ROG to play for territory and push them back.

mikedragon32

Quint2010 wrote: »

I think Reddan coming off the bench is better than Murray coming off the bench. Isn't it what Schmidt does from time to time in tough away games?

Schmidt isn't starting with Murray though!

Quint2010

mikedragon32 wrote: »

Schmidt isn't starting with Murray though!

I was going to edit my post to clarify that one but I thought to myself-no no one will bother picking it up. But there's always one!:)

totallegend

Quint2010 wrote: »

I think Reddan coming off the bench is better than Murray coming off the bench. Isn't it what Schmidt does from time to time in tough away games?

Yes, it is.

The crucial difference is that Leinster have a pack that dominates most other club teams so if Schmidt decides he wants to play it physical and keep it tight, he can do so. Ireland will not have anything like that sort of luxury on Saturday so the comparison doesn't really hold, IMO.

Personally, and this is written through blue-tinted glasses, I think Reddan should play because we do not want to get into the sort of game where the ball is spending long periods of time at the base of a ruck with the best and cheatingest #7 in the history of the game prowling around. If Murray takes too long over the ball, as he is prone to do, McCaw will have a field day and Ireland are in for a fall.

Clegg

Thornley seems to think POM will be starting at 7 and SOB at 6.

Does anyone else think this would be a bad idea? SOB has been steadily improving all season at openside and I think it's fair to say that he's now the best 7 in Ireland.

Switching him to 6 when he's spent almost the entire season at 7 seems like a stupid idea to me.

Tox56

I get the feeling Reddan might not work for two reasons:

1) If the game isn't close, bringing on Reddan will probably be too late to make a difference.

2) If the game is close, I can see ROG being brought on to 'close the game out' and replace a tiring D'Arcy (Sexton at 12) which completely negates Reddan's effectiveness, and he isn't the type of player you want to slow the game down and stay calm. Ideal 'Reddan brainfart' territory.

Who knows, Kidney might finally have realised how to effectively use the bench, I'm not confident though.

fitz

Clegg wrote: »

Thornley seems to think POM will be starting at 7 and SOB at 6.

Does anyone else think this would be a bad idea? SOB has been steadily improving all season at openside and I think it's fair to say that he's now the best 7 in Ireland.

Switching him to 6 when he's spent almost the entire season at 7 seems like a stupid idea to me.

O'Brien switches to 6 fairly regularly, so I'd have no problem with him starting there. He's the best option on tour for either side of the scrum.

I don't see why POM should start though, our best option is SOB at 6, and Henry at 7. Henry's a better 7 than POM, and the difference between SOB and Henry at 7 would be much less than the difference between SOB and POM at 6, imo.

JRant

fitz wrote: »

Clegg wrote: »

Thornley seems to think POM will be starting at 7 and SOB at 6.

Does anyone else think this would be a bad idea? SOB has been steadily improving all season at openside and I think it's fair to say that he's now the best 7 in Ireland.

Switching him to 6 when he's spent almost the entire season at 7 seems like a stupid idea to me.

O'Brien switches to 6 fairly regularly, so I'd have no problem with him starting there. He's the best option on tour for either side of the scrum.

I don't see why POM should start though, our best option is SOB at 6, and Henry at 7. Henry's a better 7 than POM, and the difference between SOB and Henry at 7 would be much less than the difference between SOB and POM at 6, imo.

DOC over Touhy.
Murray over Reddan.
POM over Henry.
There's a definite pattern emerging here but I can't quite put my finger on what it might be!!
I agree though, play SOB at 7 with POM at 6 or SOB at 6 with Henry at 7. This just smacks of putting square pegs into round holes, which in fairness DK has been doing for 3 years now.

Banbridgeman

Aghhhhh if your moving SOB to 6 then for god sake start Henry at 7!!!!! O'Callaghan over touhy??? Jesus Christ. How is Murray starting? Someone please tell me that it's a coincidence that the three dodgiest calls involve Munster players.....

bilston

Banbridgeman wrote: »

Aghhhhh if your moving SOB to 6 then for god sake start Henry at 7!!!!! O'Callaghan over touhy??? Jesus Christ. How is Murray starting? Someone please tell me that it's a coincidence that the three dodgiest calls involve Munster players.....

Look it may not be the team so let's not lose the plot yet!

I still will find it hard to believe that an Irish coach would be deliberately biased, I just don't see how he'd get away with it, plus you don't get to where he is with petty attitudes like that anyway.

In saying that if Thornley is right in his selection you can see why people would think that!

Tox56

Demented Mole did a piece on the "Munster bias", and it was really quite revealing. There is a mountain of evidence at this stage.

All that said I agree with the above, I still can't genuinely believe someone in that position of power would do something as juvenile as favouring players from "his" province.

Maybe it's subconcious or something, but I really can't understand why he would intentionally risk his career over something so trivial.

Fishooks12

Not to upset about Murray starting tbh. It's not like we'll be playing the type of game that will get the best out of Reddan anyway. Plus if Murray has a good day (which have been admittedly few and far between this year) he'll be well able for it.

It's mad that Kidney would move SOB to 6 at this stage. But if he did it has to be Henry at 7 not POM. POM would be a great bench option if SOB were to start at 6 with Henry at 7

I still hold out some hope that DOC won't start

Scioch

I think Kidney is just too stubborn to admit he's wrong and will keep picking players until they either prove him right or implode like TOL. Odd though that his "gambles" tend to favour Munster players alright.

fitz

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Not to upset about Murray starting tbh. It's not like we'll be playing the type of game that will get the best out of Reddan anyway. Plus if Murray has a good day (which have been admittedly few and far between this year) he'll be well able for it.

Any delay at the base of the ruck against NZ is suicide.
With that in mind, and based on form, Reddan should be starting.
I hope we don't see it, but I reckon if Murray starts, we'll see a huge amount of poaching by NZ while he tries to figure out what to do, or while he's delayed getting to the ruck. I just think he's the wrong choice if we want to avoid giving NZ the opportunities they thrive on.

It's mad that Kidney would move SOB to 6 at this stage. But if he did it has to be Henry at 7 not POM. POM would be a great bench option if SOB were to start at 6 with Henry at 7

No, it's really not. He's played 6 plenty this season, and is quite a ways better there than any of the other options. As I said, Henry's much closer to SOB's quality at 7 than POM is to SOB at 6, so really it should be a no-brainer.
I'd also prefer Kev on the bench tbh, I think POM could get dragged into niggles, and Kev's disciplined physicality could be more of an asset trying to close out a close final 20 minutes, if that's the position we find ourselves in.

I still hold out some hope that DOC won't start

Ha. It's inevitable!

Scioch

Tox56 wrote: »

Demented Mole did a piece on the "Munster bias", and it was really quite revealing. There is a mountain of evidence at this stage.

All that said I agree with the above, I still can't genuinely believe someone in that position of power would do something as juvenile as favouring players from "his" province.

Maybe it's subconcious or something, but I really can't understand why he would intentionally risk his career over something so trivial.

Interesting read.

This is a squad whose fringe selections are open to accusations of whimsy and bias. Kidney has included two uncapped players in Mike Sherry and Simon Zebo, both of them from Munster. He included one uncapped player in the 2012 Six Nations squad: Peter O’Mahony of Munster. He included one uncapped player in the RWC11 squad: Conor Murray. Guess who he plays for? Are Munster the only team producing good young players or giving them a run?

Put it in perspective a bit I think.

Tox56

Don't forget the Irish teams (national + provincial) are known for their work at the breakdown in the same way the likes of New Zealand are, so we should be able to cause them problems too.

Even with Kidney, these aren't mediocre players, they are top quality internationals who aren't going to give anything away easily.

danthefan

There's a poster on lf.com claiming this is the team:

Kearney, Ferg, Earls, BOD, Zebo, Sexton, Murray
Healy, Best, Fitzpatrick (tbc), Ryan, Tuohy, SOB, POM, Heaslip

irishbucsfan

If that's the case then Thornley is way off. Unlikely imo

fitz

danthefan wrote: »

There's a poster on lf.com claiming this is the team:

Kearney, Ferg, Earls, BOD, Zebo, Sexton, Murray
Healy, Best, Fitzpatrick (tbc), Ryan, Tuohy, SOB, POM, Heaslip

No chance, especially given what Kidney said about not experimenting against NZ.

danthefan

fitz wrote: »

No chance, especially given what Kidney said about not experimenting against NZ.

I would tend to agree.

Tox56

I would be surprised if Kidney went straight from no experimentation whatsoever, to changing the right and left wing, the inside and outside centres, the second rows and tighthead prop.

He wouldn't do it against Italy/Scotland and I doubt he would do it against the All Blacks. I would love to see it but extremely unlikely I think.

totallegend

irishbucsfan wrote: »

If that's the case then Thornley is way off. Unlikely imo

It would be absolutely hilarious, in the context of the 'Thornley' thread, if it now turned out that he doesn't actually have the inside track and was in the dark on the most sweeping team changes of the Kidney era.

bilston

danthefan wrote: »

There's a poster on lf.com claiming this is the team:

Throw Reddan in instead of Murray and obviously a fit Ross in place of Deccie Fitz and I'd quite like the look of that XV which must surely mean it's bullcrap.

Cpt_Blackbeard

danthefan wrote: »

There's a poster on lf.com claiming this is the team:

I was actually going to suggest that team yesterday . It makes some sense as Trimble and D'Arcy don't deserve the start, and there were mentions at the end of the 6N that BOD would have to earn back his 13 jersey. Zebo would be a huge worry, but he is in better form than Trimble.

Reddan is in better form than Murray, but I feel that Murray will be better suited as our pack will likely be on the back-foot from the outset. Reddan behind a beaten pack is a disaster waiting to happen.

Both suggested teams look to have SOB at 6 and POM at 7. Of all the poor selection calls that Kidney is liable to make, this is the oddest imo.