Ireland Tour to New Zealand 2012 Discussion thread

GerM

“You don't experiment against a side like New Zealand".

Declan Kidney - 21/5/12

I've mixed feelings but mostly positive. Delighted that DK has seen fit to change some things up and drop some of the underperforming players. However, I think he has things badly wrong with the back three. Our wings are weak defensively which is something that will be exposed. If anyone has been watching Savea and Guildford recently in the S15 they'll know that this game is a massive step up for McFadden and Zebo. I think Zebo will be used as a strike runner popping up elsewhere in the back line which he's very good at but I think he could be mercilessly exposed without the ball. Much lesser teams have gone through him. Aironi, for example, did so with ease. I'm very surprised he has been selected and think DK will have to live or die by this selection. McFadden is moderately better as he's a stronger tackler in the one on one situations but force him to make a decision or pull him out of position and he struggles.

One thing I've wondered and people always seem to claim it....does Zebo have "real pace"? I think he has a great nose for the line and picks good lines but I'm yet to ever see him burn anyone. I don't think he's particularly faster than our other wings. Even when he has had a clear run, he doesn't seem to streak away from defenders and I've seen him bundled into touch on several occasions trying to take people on the outside. He certainly won't have the beatings of Guildford for pace.

Happy with the pack. Fitzpatrick is a necessity unfortunately due to injury but he won't last the pace. His fitness is not good enough (yet). Loughney will definitely need to come on at some point as Fitzpatrick runs out of steam. I think he has a good 40 minutes in him and could hand on by his fingernails for another 15 minutes before becoming a real liability. Good back row and second row.

Bench has very little impact, in fairness. McLaughlin, ROG, Cave, DOC...very much specialist players. Surprised Trimble didn't get a look in. He's someone that has been there and done that against NZ and has always done well.

thomond2006

dub_skav wrote: »

Sweet Jesus, has Kidney completely lost the plot.

It's like the WC squad selection all over again, he has bowed to the pressure calling for new players / rotation and lumped in new players that don't deserve it while making some odd calls like Murray, Earls & BOD (neither of whom play 12).

I think Kidney knows he is under pressure and is going to use the rotation card to try and save himself.

I will be cheering for ireland, but I believe Kidney is giving them little chance.

When the hell has he bowed to pressure and "used rotation to save himself"?

twinytwo

thomond2006 wrote: »

IRELAND Team & Replacements (v New Zealand, Steinlager Series, Eden Park, Auckland, Saturday, June 9, kick-off 7.35pm local time/8.35am Irish time):

15 - Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster)
14 - Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster)
13 - Brian O'Driscoll (UCD/Leinster) (capt)
12 - Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster)
11 - Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster) *
10 - Jonathan Sexton (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
9 - Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
1 - Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster)
2 - Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster)
3 - Declan Fitzpatrick (Dungannon/Ulster) *
4 - Dan Tuohy (Ballymena/Ulster)
5 - Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster)
6 - Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster)
7 - Sean O'Brien (Clontarf/Leinster)
8 - Jamie Heaslip (Naas/Leinster)

Replacements:
16 - Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
17 - Ronan Loughney (Galwegians/Connacht) *
18 - Donncha O'Callaghan (Cork Constitution/Munster)
19 - Kevin McLaughlin (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
20 - Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster)
21 - Ronan O'Gara (Cork Constitution/Munster)
22 - Darren Cave (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)

http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/26643.php

Finally, FINALLY!!!!!! Some bloody rotation!

I'm worried about the wingers defence but in attack BOD and Earls together is very exciting.

DOC dropped.... *rubs eyes*

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

i think not having trimble on is going to come back and bite kidney in the foot.

I pray fitzpatrick can hold the scrum, if he cant its going to be england all over again except ten times worse.

Why no reddan?? i just dont understand it, i assume with that backline he is planning on running the ball... so why no reddan???

twinytwo

GerM wrote: »

“You don't experiment against a side like New Zealand".

Declan Kidney - 21/5/12

I've mixed feelings but mostly positive. Delighted that DK has seen fit to change some things up and drop some of the underperforming players. However, I think he has things badly wrong with the back three. Our wings are weak defensively which is something that will be exposed. If anyone has been watching Savea and Guildford recently in the S15 they'll know that this game is a massive step up for McFadden and Zebo. I think Zebo will be used as a strike runner popping up elsewhere in the back line which he's very good at but I think he could be mercilessly exposed without the ball. Much lesser teams have gone through him. Aironi, for example, did so with ease. I'm very surprised he has been selected and think DK will have to live or die by this selection. McFadden is moderately better as he's a stronger tackler in the one on one situations but force him to make a decision or pull him out of position and he struggles.

One thing I've wondered and people always seem to claim it....does Zebo have "real pace"? I think he has a great nose for the line and picks good lines but I'm yet to ever see him burn anyone. I don't think he's particularly faster than our other wings. Even when he has had a clear run, he doesn't seem to streak away from defenders and I've seen him bundled into touch on several occasions trying to take people on the outside. He certainly won't have the beatings of Guildford for pace.

Happy with the pack. Fitzpatrick is a necessity unfortunately due to injury but he won't last the pace. His fitness is not good enough (yet). Loughney will definitely need to come on at some point as Fitzpatrick runs out of steam. I think he has a good 40 minutes in him and could hand on by his fingernails for another 15 minutes before becoming a real liability. Good back row and second row.

Bench has very little impact, in fairness. McLaughlin, ROG, Cave, DOC...very much specialist players. Surprised Trimble didn't get a look in. He's someone that has been there and done that against NZ and has always done well.

he is quick but not lightening, my brother used to kick his ass on the track.

yosser hughes

[Jackass] wrote: »

why have earls in the centre and mcfadden on the wing? amazing. even cave in centre and earls on wing...it would be interesting if bod actually played the game as a 12, but i doubt it.

zebo straight in ahead of gilroy too...madness...

good second row though.

nail in coffin is murray starting. whats the point in trying to field an exciting backline and then starting murray...

That sums up exactly what I am thinking. I'm disgusted he's persisting with Murray.
Zebo shouldn't be there either.

fitz

Pack selection is fine, though I question why Henry is on tour if he's not fit.
Murray starting is, I think the wrong call.
Combine that with the wing selections, and I think we'll see NZ poaching well at slow rucks, then quickly putting width on the ball and exposing us badly.

I genuinely feel bad for Zebo.
He's a natural talent with huge potential, but with some obvious flaws that he needs to work on. Like Murray at the WC, this potential seems to have catapulted him ahead of more rounded players, and I think DK is putting the guy in a position where he could take a serious knock in confidence after getting shown up by a NZ backline that will only need him to make small mistakes in order to punish us.

Ferg is a better tackler, and I wouldn't be as worried about him, but I don't think he's our best option to start either.

Typical Kidney team tbh...makes a change and gets something right in one area, then offsets that by doing something daft in another. I'm surprised by the selection, but tbh, probably less confident than I was, which wasn't a lot to begin with.

bamboozle

very surprising selection.
is Zebo on left wing an indication that Earls is not considered capable of playing right wing and is shunted into the center as a result. i'd have thought mcfadden at 12 would be a much better choice. i've grave fears over earls distribution game as a 12.

ok, putting aside shock of Zebo starting (i watched him being exposed at AIL level earlier this season and am not a fan) whats the point of having an exciting 11-15 from an attacking perspective then selecting a plodder passer at 9? no sense to me.

Great to see Touhy & Ryan starting, i'd have expected DOC to be a nailed on starter (he's started 38/39 tests under DK) all of a sudden our back 5 in the pack have serious carrying ability and serious dog not to mention mobility.
Will be interesting to see how POM fairs, i'd have liked to see the leinster back row starting as i'm a huge McLaughlin fan and consider him hugely underreated.

hopefully a close game by 55 minutes will see the introduction of Reddan, Loughney & Cronin to add some life to our team.

If ROG steps onto the park NZ will immediately change tactics and just run at him.

would McCarthy be a better bench option than DOC? cant see what DOC will add to a game off the bench.

twinytwo

fitz wrote: »

Pack selection is fine, though I question why Henry is on tour if he's not fit.
Murray starting is, I think the wrong call.
Combine that with the wing selections, and I think we'll see NZ poaching well at slow rucks, then quickly putting width on the ball and exposing us badly.

I genuinely feel bad for Zebo.
He's a natural talent with huge potential, but with some obvious flaws that he needs to work on. Like Murray at the WC, this potential seems to have catapulted him ahead of more rounded players, and I think DK is putting the guy in a position where he could take a serious knock in confidence after getting shown up by a NZ backline that will only need him to make small mistakes in order to punish us.

Ferg is a better tackler, and I wouldn't be as worried about him, but I don't think he's our best option to start either.

Typical Kidney team tbh...makes a change and gets something right in one area, then offsets that by doing something daft in another. I'm surprised by the selection, but tbh, probably less confident than I was, which wasn't a lot to begin with.

lets be honest though, richie is going to be doing whatever he wants for the 80 mins so us winning is going to be nearly impossible anyway.

funky penguin

Lads I'm convinced this is all a conspiracy to make us believe Gerry Thornley doesn't have the inside track.

ionadnapokot

Cant believe experimentation is taking place in the 1st test against New Zealand. There is a time and a place. And that was in June '10.
Why not experiment in the 2nd or 3rd tests??
Ready made excuse for Kidney if we loose this match.
I fancied Ireland to beat the 17pt handicap comfortably, but im not so sure now.
Although NZ are starting with 3 new caps, they are all playing in their club positions. Actually every NZ player is playing in their club position bar Vito @6.

JustinDee

bamboozle wrote: »

would McCarthy be a better bench option than DOC? cant see what DOC will add to a game off the bench.

Experience. Seniority in the ruck area. Scrummaging behind the tight-head.

irishbucsfan

I think its unfair to criticise Zebos mistakes in defense and not highlight McFaddens. It's McFaddens biggest weakness as well imo. Hes made some big mistakes this season. In both finals he made pretty obvious errors.

I'm very worried about both wingers however I'm sure Kiss knows well what he's working with and he'll use a system that will protect their flaws. Although I'm worried the only system I can think of that could do that is a slower drift which would give "them" more space.

Hopefully McQuilkin might write something on the subject?

bamboozle

JustinDee wrote: »

Experience. Seniority in the ruck area. Scrummaging behind the tight-head.

jeez, you make it sound like he's a world class 2nd row who should be starting. Seniority in the ruck area???? i'll match that and suggest McCarthy has mobility to get to the ruck area quicker before McCaw lies over the ball.

bamboozle

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I think its unfair to criticise Zebos mistakes in defense and not highlight McFaddens. It's McFaddens biggest weakness as well imo. Hes made some big mistakes this season. In both finals he made pretty obvious errors.

I'm very worried about both wingers however I'm sure Kiss knows well what he's working with and he'll use a system that will protect their flaws. Although I'm worried the only system I can think of that could do that is a slower drift which would give "them" more space.

Hopefully McQuilkin might write something on the subject?

thing is though, McFadden is a center first and foremost. so why move Earls into 12 where he's never/rarely played and shunt a 12 out onto the wing.

.ak

Lads, I know we're all for Kidney experimenting/rotating... but it'd be nice if he did it correctly/knew what he was doing. Has Earls ever played at 12? Earls should be on the wing with McFadden at 12. Reddan should be starting also.

twinytwo

bamboozle wrote: »

thing is though, McFadden is a center first and foremost. so why move Earls into 12 where he's never/rarely played and shunt a 12 out onto the wing.

i know people dont like drico playing 12 but if kidney wanted to just lump someone in there how wasnt an actual 12, why not put drico there, he draws defenders which woud have left space for earls or whoever was outside him.... i just cant see earls doing this... hopefully im wrong. Drico with space is a very very good thing.:D

davidpfitz

JustinDee wrote: »

Seniority in the ruck area.

What's that supposed to mean?

"Steady on guys, you've got to let me get there first - respect your elders, and all that".

twinytwo

.ak wrote: »

Lads, I know we're all for Kidney experimenting/rotating... but it'd be nice if he did it correctly/knew what he was doing. Has Earls ever played at 12? Earls should be on the wing with McFadden at 12. Reddan should be starting also.

he played 12 for the u20's or wolfhounds cant remember which

twinytwo

twinytwo wrote: »

i know people dont like drico playing 12 but if kidney wanted to just lump someone in there how wasnt an actual 12, why not put drico there, he draws defenders which woud have left space for earls or whoever was outside him.... i just cant see earls doing this... hopefully im wrong. Drico with space is a very very good thing.:D

I imagine that we'll see a lot of interchange between the 12/13 jersey. Earls will probably line up at 13 just as often as he does at 12.

GerM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I'm very worried about both wingers however I'm sure Kiss knows well what he's working with and he'll use a system that will protect their flaws.

A few decades of the rosary, perhaps? Might I suggest the sorrowful mysteries.

Otherwise, I think the only way they won't be exposed is if we ensure they're never left facing their men one on one.

GerM

twinytwo wrote: »

he played 12 for the u20's or wolfhounds cant remember which

Wolfhounds.

We'll see BOD lining up at 12 a fair bit. Bit of chopping and changing and I expect to see McFadden moving in there too at times.

Clareman

twinytwo wrote: »

he is quick but not lightening, my brother used to kick his ass on the track.

Would have had to have been behind him to be able to do that :P

irishbucsfan

GerM wrote: »

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I'm very worried about both wingers however I'm sure Kiss knows well what he's working with and he'll use a system that will protect their flaws.

A few decades of the rosary, perhaps? Might I suggest the sorrowful mysteries.

Otherwise, I think the only way they won't be exposed is if we ensure they're never left facing their men one on one.

Well it is possible to hide a weakness using a correct system in fairness and the wing is probably the easiest place to do that.

But I agree, surely its impossible to do that for two players for 80 minutes against the all blacks.

Kev_2012

For those of you questioning why Murray is starting,

In nearly all of the tests Ireland have played against NZ in the last few years, we have been either ahead or within a score of them until the last 20 minutes.

I think Reddan will bring a good injection of pace in the attack for the last 20 minutes which will make it difficult for NZ.

Don't believe me? Hold me to it, Reddan to come on with 20-30 minutes left and to totally up our game. Lets just hope we can hold for the first 50/60.

Tigerandahalf

Risky selection from Kidney. I agree with others in that Gilroy should be on the wing instead of Zebo. Zebo is a lovely player but his tackling and defensive game are not his strong points. Earls is being shunted around too much. I hope it is a Kidney ploy and that he will line up at 13. Is BOD capable of taking hits at his age? He is a smashing tackler and he will suck in NZ forwards to the ruck as he is so good at snaffling ball. Hope it works out. If Fitzpatrick holds the scrum and Ryan can secure ball the pack could do quite well. I hope Dan Tuohy has a big game. Only concern would be his discipline. McFadden has always played well for Ireland and is good at carrying ball.
It certainly makes it more exciting to watch.

twinytwo

Kev_2012 wrote: »

For those of you questioning why Murray is starting,

In nearly all of the tests Ireland have played against NZ in the last few years, we have been either ahead or within a score of them until the last 20 minutes.

I think Reddan will bring a good injection of pace in the attack for the last 20 minutes which will make it difficult for NZ.

Don't believe me? Hold me to it, Reddan to come on with 20-30 minutes left and to totally up our game. Lets just hope we can hold for the first 50/60.

we also have a history of falling off in the last 15 mins..... bringing redden on if the players are knackered isnt much good

bamboozle

Kev_2012 wrote: »

For those of you questioning why Murray is starting,

In nearly all of the tests Ireland have played against NZ in the last few years, we have been either ahead or within a score of them until the last 20 minutes.

I think Reddan will bring a good injection of pace in the attack for the last 20 minutes which will make it difficult for NZ.

Don't believe me? Hold me to it, Reddan to come on with 20-30 minutes left and to totally up our game. Lets just hope we can hold for the first 50/60.

here's hoping that we're within touching distance with 20 left. we cant underestimate the impact of cronin with 20 left either. he'll add real energy to the pack.

without sounding like a heathen, i dont want to see BOD at 12, i'd fear he'll try to do too much on his own and not release the ball out wide.

yosser hughes

Kev_2012 wrote: »

For those of you questioning why Murray is starting,

In nearly all of the tests Ireland have played against NZ in the last few years, we have been either ahead or within a score of them until the last 20 minutes.

I think Reddan will bring a good injection of pace in the attack for the last 20 minutes which will make it difficult for NZ.

Don't believe me? Hold me to it, Reddan to come on with 20-30 minutes left and to totally up our game. Lets just hope we can hold for the first 50/60.

That's a fair pont I suppose Kev. Reddan will up the pace alright. However should murray even be in the 22? I'd obviously have Boss there instead but I guess he's still injured.
I also am not sure about your contention that we are ahead or within a score going in to the last twenty.I genuinely fear a real spanking,with the game to be over by half time

snow mad

would it not be more likely that earls and mcfadden will be switching in the line up more than bod and earls could be really tricky to deal with all three switching
if they are to go with the idea of a backline that is constantly switching can you imagine putting fitz and bowe into this:)

JRant

.ak wrote: »

Lads, I know we're all for Kidney experimenting/rotating... but it'd be nice if he did it correctly/knew what he was doing. Has Earls ever played at 12? Earls should be on the wing with McFadden at 12. Reddan should be starting also.

It would be nice if he played form players in the positions they normally play in. Our best wing is at 13, our greatest ever player is moved to 12. The best 12 in the country by some distance this year is sat at home. A double HEC winning outhalf partnership is broken up again, Reddan must of p*ssed on DK's cat or something cause he really don't like the chap. Half our backs comes from a team that didn't string a decent move together worth mentioning all season. We've a SH who's performances this season have made TOL look good when he's replaced him.
Yeah I'm somewhat excited by having Touhy and Ryan together but a backrow of SOB, Henry and Heaslip would have really caused havoc at the breakdown, for all POM's attributes he just not as good as Henry in a breakdown battle.
NZ -17 looks very generous right about now.