Ireland Tour to New Zealand 2012 Discussion thread

GerM

Kev_2012 wrote: »

For those of you questioning why Murray is starting,

In nearly all of the tests Ireland have played against NZ in the last few years, we have been either ahead or within a score of them until the last 20 minutes.


Don't believe me? Hold me to it, Reddan to come on with 20-30 minutes left and to totally up our game. Lets just hope we can hold for the first 50/60.

I don't believe you because after 55 minutes in our last three tests against NZ we've been 33-13, 52-12 and 22-3 down. The only times we've competed with NZ is when we've come out of the blocks hard and hit them early such as 2008 when Wallace went over or 2006 when BOD went over both in the early stages.

Teferi

I believe Zebo will be out of his depth. I hope he proves me wrong.

Overall an intriguing team. Genuinely surprised by Kidney.

Is hoping for us to play some positive rugby a bridge too far?

JRant

Kev_2012 wrote: »

For those of you questioning why Murray is starting,

In nearly all of the tests Ireland have played against NZ in the last few years, we have been either ahead or within a score of them until the last 20 minutes.

I think Reddan will bring a good injection of pace in the attack for the last 20 minutes which will make it difficult for NZ.

Don't believe me? Hold me to it, Reddan to come on with 20-30 minutes left and to totally up our game. Lets just hope we can hold for the first 50/60.

Think you might be forget one small factor. What if he puts Reddan on with 20 to go and ROG! Boom, plan falls flat on its face.

tolosenc

Well done Deccie. Neutralise BOD by putting Earls at 12. Smooth.

Finally dropping DOC must have been hard for him.

shuffol

Zebo been picked for squad makes a bit more sense now, think Kidney was planning on making a change at left wing all along and thus chose Zebo over Gilroy and Kearney as he is the best left wing of the three. Kidney really mustn't rate Trimble though, he's gotten a raw deal on so many selections.

Had an inkling Tuohy would start yesterday after Feeks interview about Fitzpatrick. Seemed to drop a hint that Tuohy would get the nod or at least thats how I read it.

This is definately the weakest set of wings we've seen start for Ireland in a long while. Whatever about Zebo been there for potential Mcfadden is a long way off at this level and I suspect after this tour wont start another game on the wing for Ireland.

Looking forward to the game more now though, most exciting thing for me about this selection is that we dont know what to expect for the following tests now.

dub_skav

thomond2006 wrote: »

When the hell has he bowed to pressure and "used rotation to save himself"?

Admission:I will admit that I have been on the Kidney out train for years, so all my opinions are tinged with bias at this stage.

In my opinion he bowed to pressure by dropping Luke Fitzgerald and O'Leary from the WC squad and picking Murray.
He wanted to show that he wasn't tied to all his old regulars while bringing in new blood all at once.
So he picked 2 sacrificial lambs and 1 young player to prove these points
Fitz was returning to form and Murray had done nothing to show that he was a deserving squad member, never mind starter.

He has never previously used rotation as an excuse to save himself, but this selection looks ready made to use that excuse.

twinytwo

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Risky selection from Kidney. I agree with others in that Gilroy should be on the wing instead of Zebo. Zebo is a lovely player but his tackling and defensive game are not his strong points. Earls is being shunted around too much. I hope it is a Kidney ploy and that he will line up at 13. Is BOD capable of taking hits at his age? He is a smashing tackler and he will suck in NZ forwards to the ruck as he is so good at snaffling ball. Hope it works out. If Fitzpatrick holds the scrum and Ryan can secure ball the pack could do quite well. I hope Dan Tuohy has a big game. Only concern would be his discipline. McFadden has always played well for Ireland and is good at carrying ball.
It certainly makes it more exciting to watch.

does a bear sh!t in the woods????:D

Hagz

It's a weak team but at least it's something new.

McFadden on the wing though? Really? I suspect Savea to get 1 or 2 tries on his debut.

JustinDee

Teferi wrote: »

I believe Zebo will be out of his depth. I hope he proves me wrong.

Overall an intriguing team. Genuinely surprised by Kidney.

Is hoping for us to play some positive rugby a bridge too far?

New guy at halfback Aaron Smith will be a massive target for special attention every time he gets his hands on the ball from set-piece or breakdown.

I hope the off-the-ball bullsh from the likes of Franks and Woodcock (who has been exceptionally ridiculous in this respect this season) will be reffed. Over-running the ruck taking defenders with you is actually illegal and is a penalty to the defending side. Do it after a warning and its the 'sun-bun' for you.
Thats what I want to see. A fair game because I believe the back-row chosen will be very abrasive in contact area and very competitive at the breakdown. Cut the halfback out of the equation and opportunities appear in a tight game. Keep tight in defence and use smarts.

Discipline.
Accuracy.
Execution.

All very very possible. I'm at a flipping wedding weekend in a place with no Sky Sports so will have to make do with laptop and Sky login.
Can't wait.

Tox56

Well I'm nearly speechless, I may not agree with all the selections, but at least it is change.

Although I didn't dare dream it could happen, there were signs this was possible. Only taking one 12 in D'Arcy (doesn't seem to rate Ferg) and taking three 13's suggested something was up.

Hopefully they can vary their attack throughout the game, keep NZ guessing:

Earls
BOD
Ferg

BOD
Earls
Ferg

Ferg
BOD
Earls

The probably won't know what's coming, I certainly won't.

Great for Cave to get his chance, hopefully he gets meaningful gametime.

Leslie91

I like the fact that he has shaken things up somewhat but like most of the above....

Murray is a liability if we (with this backline) are wanting to play an expansive running game.

DOC is of absolute no use on the bench. Not saying he should have started either mind you. McCarthy would make a much bigger impact.

The whole Earls, McFadden, BOD thing is odd. On the face of it McF should be 12, BOD 13 and Earls on the wing. So I've no idea what the thinking is there. As long as we see BOD playing at 12 even if he is wearing 13 and perhaps Earls and McF rotating I'm good. Earls is no 12. The jury is out on whether he will ultimately be 13 or wing for Ireland.

I fear for Zebo and what might happen to him when his opposite number runs at him.

But sure F it, at least it's not the same ol same ol.

Brian_Zeluz

So what channel will the tests be on?

Quint2010

Have to say I am delighted. Not necessarily with the team per se. But just with the fact that Kidney has made a few changes. I really hope we see BOD at 12 and Earls at 13. I am hopeful that Murray can up his game and that Zebo proves his doubters wrong. Come on Ireland!

JustinDee

dub_skav wrote: »

Admission:I will admit that I have been on the Kidney out train for years, so all my opinions are tinged with bias at this stage.

In my opinion he bowed to pressure by dropping Luke Fitzgerald and O'Leary from the WC squad and picking Murray.
He wanted to show that he wasn't tied to all his old regulars while bringing in new blood all at once.
So he picked 2 sacrificial lambs and 1 young player to prove these points
Fitz was returning to form and Murray had done nothing to show that he was a deserving squad member, never mind starter.

He has never previously used rotation as an excuse to save himself, but this selection looks ready made to use that excuse.

Who do you think is bothering him into pressurised decisions? Do you think he and his fellow selectors care what Joe Soap or Joe Scribe think about them? A professional coach strives for results and to the best of their ability. Thats all that matters to them.

If you think Tomás O'Leary was in-form last August, I don't know what games you were watching. He's back in his game again now but back then, was plainly off-kilter and a risk at halfback.

Leslie91

Brian_Zeluz wrote: »

So what channel will the tests be on?

Only on Sky Sports I believe!. Down to the pub for 0815.

sydthebeat

everyone forgets that Murray was brought in because of his quick ball, and also had more physicality around the rucks. This was in all in the context of comparison with O Leary. he actually was more of a snipe than O leary as well.

However, since his first introduction he seems to have forgotten his primary reasons for being picked in the first place. His first though at rucks seems to go to doing something 'off standard' from a scrum half point of view, whether it be joining in the ruck unnecessarily, stepping back looking for the snipe causing slow ball... or not passing quickly in structured play.

that being said, i think Reddan is much better suited to this game than Murray. Smith is only 5' 7" so reddans not at a loss in the physicality stakes. Hes also very snipey around the field which i think would be best countered by Reddan.
The obvious pro in the murray v reddan debate is the 9 - 10 link.

On the team, im positive about the mobility in the forwards... it will be well needed against the ABs who constantly spread the ball wide and deep.. so we need forwards who are fit and strong and mobile enough to hit these rucks preferably before their counterparts.

Im not sure of the wings, i think trimble can feel hard done by. Zebo is suspect defensively, and if im reading it right hes up against guilford (?) with mc faddan facing savea (gulp!!).

GerM

Hagz wrote: »

It's a weak team but at least it's something new.

McFadden on the wing though? Really? I suspect Savea to get 1 or 2 tries on his debut.

6'3", 104kg and is quick with a great offload. The bloke could play 6 quite well. He's a monster. I think McFadden might be there just to try and rush up on him and hit him hard and early. Any positional issues though and McFadden could be roasted.

JustinDee

Leslie91 wrote: »

Only on Sky Sports I believe!. Down to the pub for 0815.

Sky Sports 2. Coverage at 8am but that will probably include previews of all the day's games, mainly Sth Africa v England.

twinytwo

Leslie91 wrote: »

Only on Sky Sports I believe!. Down to the pub for 0815.

i hate sky with a passion

JustinDee

twinytwo wrote: »

i hate sky with a passion

So did George Hook (and melodramatically so) until a few months later when he got the advertising gig for . . . Sky lol

dub_skav

Kidney is way out of his comfort zone with this type of selection, maybe the pressure of poor results is getting to him. But I personally believe he is starting to listen to (and pander to) outside influences.

Did I say O'leary was in-form last August? No, I didn't.
However, Kidney stuck with him for far too long and only dropped him at the last moment, wasting the chance to see how others performed. In my opinion that was a desperate attempt to prove that he didn't have favourites.
If it was a genuine worry about form he should have been axed long before.

Brian_Zeluz

Leslie91 wrote: »

Brian_Zeluz wrote: »

So what channel will the tests be on?

Only on Sky Sports I believe!. Down to the pub for 0815.

Oh Joy, that's fan-f##king-tastic. I just LOVE sky.

shuffol

The more I look at the side the more I think that Madigan should be out there. Either with or at the expense of ROG. Also not sure of the point of D'arcy being out there if he's been dropped, clearly his days in an Ireland shirt are numbered which makes the decision to give him a central contract all the more puzzling. Swap Madigan with ROG and Wallace with D'arcy. Better for the future(which is obviously what we're looking at in other positions), better form wise and a 3rd outhalf option in case of emergency.

JustinDee

dub_skav wrote: »

Kidney is way out of his comfort zone with this type of selection, maybe the pressure of poor results is getting to him. But I personally believe he is starting to listen to (and pander to) outside influences

Thats not how they do things. There is a selection panel. They discuss then they select. Thats how its done.

dub_skav wrote: »

Did I say O'leary was in-form last August? No, I didn't.
However, Kidney stuck with him for far too long and only dropped him at the last moment, wasting the chance to see how others performed. In my opinion that was a desperate attempt to prove that he didn't have favourites.
If it was a genuine worry about form he should have been axed long before.

Trying a guy back after injury with an aim to selection for a tour is not something to do?
Interesting policy that . . .

sydthebeat

shuffol wrote: »

The more I look at the side the more I think that Madigan should be out there. Either with or at the expense of ROG. Also not sure of the point of D'arcy being out there if he's been dropped, clearly his days in an Ireland shirt are numbered which makes the decision to give him a central contract all the more puzzling. Swap Madigan with ROG and Wallace with D'arcy. Better for the future(which is obviously what we're looking at in other positions), better form wise and a 3rd outhalf option in case of emergency.

you do know wallace is older than darcy... yeah?

shuffol

I was referring to Madigan, the bit about form is more a reference to Wallace.

shaungil

I worry for Zebo, could he be the new Neville Furlong?

sydthebeat

shuffol wrote: »

I was referring to Madigan, the bit about form is more a reference to Wallace.

I suppose it comes down to what the point of the tour is.
Is it to be viewed as a "be all and end all" where one victory would gain us vital ranking points?

Or is it to be viewed as a "build for the future" tour.

If the former then madigan not being there and wallace being included makes sense (although its easy to argue that wallace hasnt ever 'done it' at international level... but unfortunately we're bereft of quality in centre at the moment)

If the latter then definitely madigan should have been brought. And i wouldnt have had wallace there, Cave would be 12 with BOD 13.

Clearlier

shaungil wrote: »

I worry for Zebo, could he be the new Neville Furlong?

I'd probably take the result that Furlong got against New Zealand! That said, a similar performance would probably give us a win. We hadn't a clue how to win a match in 1992 whereas we have plenty of experience of it now.

irishbucsfan

I think BOD, Earls would be my ideal center partnership but Wallace, BOD would have been nice too. Although saying that D'Arcy is no mug and his contribution off the ball Dar exceeds either of the other two. We actually have some very good centres kicking about.