Ireland Tour to New Zealand 2012 Discussion thread

dub_skav

JustinDee wrote: »

Thats not how they do things. There is a selection panel. They discuss then they select. Thats how its done.

You trot that out whenever anybody suspects bias or poor choices from kidney. I'll leave it there

shuffol

sydthebeat wrote: »

I suppose it comes down to what the point of the tour is.
Is it to be viewed as a "be all and end all" where one victory would gain us vital ranking points?

Or is it to be viewed as a "build for the future" tour.

If the former then madigan not being there and wallace being included makes sense (although its easy to argue that wallace hasnt ever 'done it' at international level... but unfortunately we're bereft of quality in centre at the moment)

If the latter then definitely madigan should have been brought. And i wouldnt have had wallace there, Cave would be 12 with BOD 13.

Going by the selection for the weekend it looks like the side was picked with an eye on the future. Our wings have the potential to be exposed badly. This in the one game out of the three that we've supposedly got the best chance in as NZ will be rusty. If experimentation was the plan all along why not do it properly. I dont like how large ROGs spectre looms over the squad, I dont think Kidney could envisage dropping him and he'll most likely make an appearance saturday whether the circumstances merit it or not.

JustinDee

dub_skav wrote: »

You trot that out whenever anybody suspects bias or poor choices from kidney. I'll leave it there

Because, as I said already, that is how it is done.

Fishooks12

Wow, I'm kind of in shock with the selection

Ok it might not be many peoples idea of their team but at least Kidney is trying some different combinations

It certainly makes the game a lot more interesting now

justsomebloke

then truthfully if we don't get any decent result from NZ the whole panel should be up for the chopping board as they have been woeful

Fishooks12

One thing I'll be worried about is our wingers defense. Ferg is rocky enough sometimes and Zebo is pretty naive defensively too

However, both of them have serious pace and could cause problems

TomLamp

I am delighted with the team. OK so I dont agree with some of the selections but at least Kidney is trying something different. Zebo starting is genuinely exciting, I can't wait to see how he does.

That said, I can't help but feel that Madigan has been hard done by, I genuiney would have loved to have seen him in that team at 12 with Earls on the wing.

Fishooks12

TomLamp wrote: »

I am delighted with the team. OK so I dont agree with some of the selections but at least Kidney is trying something different. Zebo starting is genuinely exciting, I can't wait to see how he does.

That said, I can't help but feel that Madigan has been hard done by, I genuiney would have loved to have seen him in that team at 12 with Earls on the wing.

I agree, but I wouldn't have him at 12. He should have toured, even as a third outhalf if Kidney wanted to spare ROG the pain of dropping him

gotapaininmy

TomLamp wrote: »

I am delighted with the team. OK so I dont agree with some of the selections but at least Kidney is trying something different. Zebo starting is genuinely exciting, I can't wait to see how he does.

That said, I can't help but feel that Madigan has been hard done by, I genuiney would have loved to have seen him in that team at 12 with Earls on the wing.

How much has Madigan played at centre? Don't think it's a great idea to experiment with something like that against NZ. Is Earls going to play at inside or outside centre or are they going to alternate? Earls passing has improved but to be honest it was from a low base, I don't see how you can play him at 12 with his passing as poor as it is. Would have been better with McFadden at 12 I think. Earls insisiting that he doesn't want to play on the wing means he's going to have to step up big time both with his passing and defense. I sincerely hope he proves me wrong but I don't think he's up to it at 12.

Fishooks12

gotapaininmy wrote: »

How much has Madigan played at centre? Don't think it's a great idea to experiment with something like that against NZ. Is Earls going to play at inside or outside centre or are they going to alternate? Earls passing has improved but to be honest it was from a low base, I don't see how you can play him at 12 with his passing as poor as it is. Would have been better with McFadden at 12 I think. Earls insisitng that he doesn't want to play on the wing menas he's going to have to step up big time both with his passing and defense. I sincerely hope he proves me wrong but I don't think he's up to it at 12.

Earls passing has improved immeasurably over the last year. I've no worries about that aspect of his game (see the babaas game last week)

GerM

Fishooks12 wrote: »

However, both of them have serious pace and could cause problems

Again, I haven't seen much evidence of this. McFadden scored a belter against Racing last season but that was coming on fresh against a tired side in the last minute. I don't recall Zebo ever, to paraphrase David Coleman, stretching his legs and showing his class. I'd say they've average pace in relation to international wingers.

GerM

gotapaininmy wrote: »

How much has Madigan played at centre? Don't think it's a great idea to experiment with something like that against NZ.

That's what DK said also before putting out a side that contained brand new, untried combinations in every area aside from halfback!

Fishooks12

GerM wrote: »

Again, I haven't seen much evidence of this. McFadden scored a belter against Racing last season but that was coming on fresh against a tired side in the last minute. I don't recall Zebo ever, to paraphrase David Coleman, stretching his legs and showing his class. I'd say they've average pace in relation to international wingers.

Really? McFadden is supposed to be the fastest player in the Leinster squad I've heard?

Zebo is pacy too, a lot of his breaks this year came from a decent step and acceleration

Whether they can do this on an international stage now is another thing

JustinDee

GerM wrote: »

Again, I haven't seen much evidence of this. McFadden scored a belter against Racing last season but that was coming on fresh against a tired side in the last minute. I don't recall Zebo ever, to paraphrase David Coleman, stretching his legs and showing his class. I'd say they've average pace in relation to international wingers.

McFadden is an absolute flyer and pace-wise is up with the best of them. Zebo although not as quick has a deft step and good hands in attack.

gotapaininmy

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Earls passing has improved immeasurably over the last year. I've no worries about that aspect of his game (see the babaas game last week)

It has improved an awful lot but like I said it wouldn't have been difficult given how poor it was previously. I missed the barbarians game so can't comment on that. I'm not getting on Earls case, I think he's probably our most dangerous back now that BOD has lost half a yard, but I've watched Earls throwing passes clean over guys heads into the first row of the stands under absolutley no pressure and we all know the pressure the All Blacks are allowed to apply by referees giving them the offside line.

Fishooks12

gotapaininmy wrote: »

It has improved an awful lot but like I said it wouldn't have been difficult given how poor it was previously. I missed the barbarians game so can't comment on that. I'm not getting on Earls case, I think he's probably our most dangerous back now that BOD has lost half a yard, but I've watched Earls throwing passes clean over guys heads into the first row of the stands under absolutley no pressure and we all know the pressure the All Blacks are allowed to apply by referees giving them the offside line.

Watch the highlights so. His passing is up to scratch

He showed it enough times with Munster this season too

gotapaininmy

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Watch the highlights so. His passing is up to scratch

He showed it enough times with Munster this season too

The passes into row A were in games with Munster this year, admittedly in the early part of the season. Also I think you might agree that there's a big difference between the Barbarians and the All Blacks. Like I said I genuinely hope he proves me wrong but at the moment I think his best position is on the wing.

Fishooks12

gotapaininmy wrote: »

The passes into row A were in games with Munster this year, admittedly in the early part of the season.

Which games? I can't really recall?

profitius

tolosenc wrote: »

Well done Deccie. Neutralise BOD by putting Earls at 12. Smooth.

Finally dropping DOC must have been hard for him.

Earls' selection might open up more space for BOD. Earls is a much better attacker than D'Arcy. Dropping D'Arcy was one of the positives of the selection.

Personally I'd have put Cave in there and Earls on the wing. I think we'll see plenty of changes over the 3 matches but then again look who is in charge.

GerM wrote: »

Again, I haven't seen much evidence of this. McFadden scored a belter against Racing last season but that was coming on fresh against a tired side in the last minute. I don't recall Zebo ever, to paraphrase David Coleman, stretching his legs and showing his class. I'd say they've average pace in relation to international wingers.

He looks fast to me. Maybe not in a Shane Williams kind of way but when going flat out.

He is a very poor defender though.

Fishooks12

I think one thing this selection shows is that there will probably be plenty of rotation throughout the 3 games. So fair play to Kidney on that

If he can get us playing some decent rugby I could really enjoy this series

TomLamp

Serious question.

Why is it easier for Munster players to get into the squad? Kidney has never taken a gamble with a young Leinster or Ulster player but in the last 12 months hes thrown Murray, Peter O'Mahony and Simon Zebo straight into the starting 15. I can't help but think that if Gilroy, Madigan, D.Kearney played for Munster they would all be starting at least one of the tests.

gotapaininmy

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Which games? I can't really recall?

I can't remember the oppostion either but checking texts I got from Leinter fans slagging him off, it was the 14th of Jan can you remember who they played that day?

gotapaininmy

TomLamp wrote: »

Serious question.

Why is it easier for Munster players to get into the squad? Kidney has never taken a gamble with a young Leinster or Ulster player but in the last 12 months hes thrown Murray, Peter O'Mahony and Simon Zebo straight into the starting 15. I can't help but think that if Gilroy, Madigan, D.Kearney played for Munster they would all be starting at least one of the tests.

In fairness I think it's beacuse all those Munster lads you named have played Heineken cup on a regular basis.

Fishooks12

gotapaininmy wrote: »

I can't remember the oppostion either but checking texts I got from Leinter fans slagging him off, it was the 14th of Jan can you remember who they played that day?

Castre. Tbf Earls was bad that day but it was by far his worst game of the season

WeleaseWoderick

Pretty happy to see a team like that named. Personally would have gone for Reddan over Murray and would be a bit worried about both wings defensively but we've been crying out for something new so can't complain too much!

From the limited amount I have seen of Fitzpatrick, he can lock out a scrum pretty well. That's his primary function and if he can do that, anything else around the pitch will be a bonus.

The second row partnership is pretty exciting to see and hopefully the 2 lads play with a point to prove now that they've been selected.

Backrow balance looks pretty good and I reckon PO'M deserved a chance to start. Hopefully both McLaughlin and Henry will get significant gametime over the remaining tests too.

As I said above, I'd have gone for Reddan at scrumhalf but don't mind seeing him being sprung from the bench after 60 (as long as it's not with ROG)

I'd imagine we'll see plenty of switching at 12 & 13 between BOD and Earls. I have to say that I'm far more confident in Earls ability both defensively and offensively at centre after the season he has had.

Back 3 has an abundance of pace and Kearney will be rock solid. Exciting to see what the 2 wingers can do going forward and hopefully they don't get too exposed defensively.

Have to say, I am looking forward to the game far more now than I would have been if the usual team had been picked!

irishbucsfan

Fishooks12 wrote: »

gotapaininmy wrote: »

The passes into row A were in games with Munster this year, admittedly in the early part of the season.

Which games? I can't really recall?

Against Castres' 3rds it was particularly awful.

But it has certainly come on recently.

Hype710

Great opportunity for Earls and I'm glad he's been picked at centre. Even with Laulala's arrival I expect Earls to play at 13 with Munster next season, unless there are injuries to key back three players. He'll go up against the best in the business on Saturday in Conrad Smith, but with BOD alongside I'm sure it will be a combination that will test the All Black midfield and Sonny Bill in particular. Earls and BOD played together before, against Wales in 2010, with Earls scoring a brace in a fantastic performance. He has over 30 caps now, it's time he stepped up and became an integral part of the backline that we all know he can become.

gotapaininmy

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Castre. Tbf Earls was bad that day but it was by far his worst game of the season

Maybe that's why it sticks in my mind, I do remember him having a great game passing wise as well as other areas against Northampton over there though.

TomLamp

Saturday is make or break for Earls at centre. After all the criticism he played well without excelling at centre during the 6 nations. Its time for him to step up at centre on the international stage.

Tox56

Laulala + Downey arriving makes things really interesting, how they line out come the first HEC game will be fascinating, and possibly tells us how the new coach will go about things.