Ireland Tour to New Zealand 2012 Discussion thread

Otacon

TomLamp wrote: »

Saturday is make or break for Earls at centre. After all the criticism he played well without excelling at centre during the 6 nations. Its time for him to step up at centre on the international stage.

Against Smith and SBW? If he can excel there, we have a new BOD on our hands

/hyperbole obviously but you get my meaning I'm sure

TomLamp

No better test. I don't expect him to be BOD but I do expect him to be able to compete against the best of them at centre.

RoundBox11

It wouldn't be the team I'd have picked, but i'm still delighted.

I don't think Zebo deserves a start but for the sake of change maybe it'll be worth it.

It looks like Kidney is going to target the 3rd test when Ross and possibly POC will be available which makes sense really. I'd imagine Cave will start the second test too.

Given that we have our backs against the wall for this match, we've nothing to lose really by making these changes, but a lot to gain if they work. I wonder what the All Blacks will think of this team. I doubt they rate most of those players which should work to our advantage and given that most of us don't know how Kidney will use this team, the AB coaches must be really in the dark.

sydthebeat

Otacon wrote: »

Against Nonu and SBW? If he can excel there, we have a new BOD on our hands

/hyperbole obviously but you get my meaning I'm sure

smith and SBW

gotapaininmy

Tox56 wrote: »

Laulala + Downey arriving makes things really interesting, how they line out come the first HEC game will be fascinating, and possibly tells us how the new coach will go about things.

I don't know I've never been that impressed by Laulala, watched him more closely when we found out that Munster signed him and he seems competent but not brilliant. Think a big basher like Downey is what Munster need although we've seen guys come back from England with big reputations before and they weren't as good over here (Shane Jennings, Paul Burke?), probably a reflection of how poor the english premiership is.

Fishooks12

I wish people would stop putting SBW and Smith on such a god like pedestal

SBW is better than Earls at 12 but BOD is a better 13 than Smith

Tox56

gotapaininmy wrote: »

Tox56 wrote: »

Laulala + Downey arriving makes things really interesting, how they line out come the first HEC game will be fascinating, and possibly tells us how the new coach will go about things.

I don't know I've never been that impressed by Laulala, watched him more closely when we found out that Munster signed him and he seems competent but not brilliant. Think a big basher like Downey is what Munster need although we've seen guys come back from England with big reputations before and they weren't as good over here (Shane Jennings, Paul Burke?), probably a reflection of how poor the english premiership is.

Laulala has always impressed me when I've seen him. Even in a dire Cardiff team he had the ability to create something out of nothing.

More recently for the Baa Baa's, particularly in the 1st game, he was served up some rubbish by Donald and still made an impact and looked dangerous. He's the sort of player that when he gets the ball, you know something is going to happen. You don't start for the All Blacks without being a top player.

Having said that, Earls has been very good at every level he's been tested at this season, which makes the decision so interesting.

Fireball07

gotapaininmy wrote: »

I don't know I've never been that impressed by Laulala, watched him more closely when we found out that Munster signed him and he seems competent but not brilliant. Think a big basher like Downey is what Munster need although we've seen guys come back from England with big reputations before and they weren't as good over here (Shane Jennings, Paul Burke?), probably a reflection of how poor the english premiership is.

Well I don't think anyone has that big expectations of Downey. He's a fairly limited player...but we know what he is capable of, and it's something that Munster have lacked since Halstead really.

And Jennings didn't do too badly for himself over here.

But I think Laulala is a class act, lovely step, looks to offload, a proper centre. Good competition for Earls.

Fishooks12 wrote: »

I wish people would stop putting SBW and Smith on such a god like pedestal

SBW is better than Earls at 12 but BOD is a better 13 than Smith

Still the best centre partnership in the world though...

Clegg

Fishooks12 wrote: »

I wish people would stop putting SBW and Smith on such a god like pedestal

SBW is better than Earls at 12 but BOD is a better 13 than Smith

BOD at his peak, was a better player than Conrad Smith.

However BOD is no longer at his peak and Smith is in the prime of his career. Smith is better now imo. He's probably the best 13 in the world.

gotapaininmy

Tox56 wrote: »

Laulala has always impressed me when I've seen him. Even in a dire Cardiff team he had the ability to create something out of nothing.

More recently for the Baa Baa's, particularly in the 1st game, he was served up some rubbish by Donald and still made an impact and looked dangerous. He's the sort of player that when he gets the ball, you know something is going to happen. You don't start for the All Blacks without being a top player.

Having said that, Earls has been very good at every level he's been tested at this season, which makes the decision so interesting.

Good point, that's very true that we was in a poor Cardiff side all season, certainly for the games I saw them in they were v poor. I think we're getting a bit off topic for this thread so I'll leave it at that.:D

Fishooks12

Tox56 wrote: »

You don't start for the All Blacks without being a top player.

ray jay

If we take a beating it'll be the end of any experimenting for the next year.

gotapaininmy

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Hahahahaha v good!!:D Exception that proves the rule??!!

JustinDee

Tox56 wrote: »

You don't start for the All Blacks without being a top player

Unless of course your surname was (off the top of my head) Ralph, Lauaki, Buchan, Flavell, Masoe, Cribb or Vanisi.

Tox56

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Tox56 wrote: »

You don't start for the All Blacks without being a top player.

Haha he went through my head as I wrote it, but to be fair he didn't even start in the RWC despite the injury catastrophe. To put it into perspective, I was next on the standby list.

GerM

gotapaininmy wrote: »

In fairness I think it's beacuse all those Munster lads you named have played Heineken cup on a regular basis.

That's true but if you look at the other players that have come through under DK none have been introduced as rapidly as the players that have come through his home province.

Zebo, Murray, Ryan, Earls and POM were all introduced very quickly after a season at most of play when there were other options in their positions. Then take the likes of Healy who had 50 appearances with Leinster and a HEC medal before he was given a cap and only when Horan was injured. Mike Ross who had over a season and a half with Leinster and a good number of HEC appearances but was ignored for Tony Buckley and John Hayes throughout that time who were both injured before Ross was selected. Sean O'Brien had 2 or 3 seasons under his belt before being brought into the side and only when Heaslip and Ferris were injured (3 months before being named European player of the year) where his only previous start was in an autumn international against Samoa 18 months earlier.

Compare that with POM and Zebo who only made their HEC debuts this season and are starting shortly after for Ireland. Or Earls who had only made his Munster debut a few months before being handed an Irish start. Donnacha Ryan was in the Irish match day squad during Kidney's first few tests ever before ever starting a HEC game. Murray had only a handful of senior starts before being made Irish first choice.

I'm not saying DK is biased but I do think he's far more comfortable bringing in Munster players and giving them a run than players from elsewhere simply from past experience and his links there. Others seem to have to knock on the door for far longer and wait until a multitude of injuries occurs before they get their chance. The likes of Cave, Henry, Gilroy etc. will be lucky to get a few caps under DK despite being some of the best performing players in the country currently.

[Jackass]

.ak wrote: »

Lads, I know we're all for Kidney experimenting/rotating... but it'd be nice if he did it correctly/knew what he was doing. Has Earls ever played at 12? Earls should be on the wing with McFadden at 12. Reddan should be starting also.

haha this is what i'm thinking. After YEARS of trying to get the man to drop players like Hayes, O'Callaghan, O'Leary, O'Gara and waiting until their performances become comical before phasing them out (and / or waiting for a Munster candidate to replace them - rugby ability not required. See fig1.1 Conor Murray) ONLY DECCIE could AT LAST go mad and decide feck it, lets experiment, blood a bold team like everyone is asking for, and mess it up this bad!

Seriously.... i'm not sure if i'm watching the national team or a team of paramedics pathetically trying to revive a dead province any more...

yimrsg

Kidney must have lost his marbles, a centre on the wing and our best winger in the centres. There's sod all to be gained by playing such an experimental side whilst he still plays his dour brand of rugby.

Earls has come on a lot this year in terms of centre play but to elevate him to starting at 12 smacks of Kidney pandering to his claims of wanting to be a centre and shoehorning him in there. It's nothing short of bizarre when you consider the alternatives Kidney has overlooked; Wallace who was class for most of the year for Ulster yet didn't travel. D'arcy was finding some nice form in a Leinster jersey and looked like he was turning back the clock. Cave could have gotten the nod there too, his performance against BOD in the HC final certainly commands consideration. It's even more bewildering when you consider we've a 12 in McFadden and a inexperienced youngster on the wings.

I wasn't worried about too much about SBW and Smith as an attacking threat when I firmly believed that D'arcy and BOD were expected to start but now with such a radical change to our centres, our defence there is an area of doubt. D'arcy has often been the object of scorn for Ireland but his defence at 12 has rarely been called into question (barring that one try by Rougerie). I hope that Earls doesn't try to tackle SBW high to prevent the offload but constantly go low and make sure he takes his man. Hopefully the selection will work and Earls can stop his opponents behind the gainline using his pace and acceleration to scythe down his opponent and BOD can come in for a turnover.

I genuinely hope that the side and the players that do come in to it does well but I fear for the worst, lions led by DonKeys springs to mind. DK has turned the young Munster players into lightning rods for his failings and shortcomings as a manager. Until he is gone, we're destined to take most of our ire out on the players whilst the failings in the management and those IRFU who perpetuate the nonsense get a free ride.

Fishooks12

[Jackass] wrote: »

haha this is what i'm thinking. After YEARS of trying to get the man to drop players like Hayes, O'Callaghan, O'Leary, O'Gara and waiting until their performances become comical before phasing them out (and / or waiting for a Munster candidate to replace them - rugby ability not required. See fig1.1 Conor Murray) ONLY DECCIE could AT LAST go mad and decide feck it, lets experiment, blood a bold team like everyone is asking for, and mess it up this bad!

Seriously.... i'm not sure if i'm watching the national team or a team of paramedics pathetically trying to revive a dead province any more...

ffs, that's a pretty pathetic post

Love the way you don't mention the fact that Darcy has been deadwood in the squad for the last 2 years too. But considering he's not a Munster player it wouldn't fit in with your attempts at provincial flaming

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Our wingers can't defend. That's the only problem I have. Like they are both massive liabilities in defense at international level. People will give out about Zebo but McFadden is equally worrying.

Apart from that I'm really excited by the teamsheet. However I am worried that it's all completely irrelevant. However perhaps Kidneys slavish obsession with territory might suit this game.

As for Earls and BOD, I don't think itll matter what jersey they're wearing. Earls will probably attack that outside channel with ball in hand and BOD will probably defend it at other times. Memories of 2005.

Kev McLoughlin on the bench. I'd imagine he'll come on with Reddan and we'll have a spell of controlled possession where we are at our most dangerous offensively, I suppose the question is how long can they maintain this and whether it'll be enough to give us a lead we can hold. And my biggest fear to our chances of winning is still whether or not Declan springs ROG for Sexton or a center.

The use of the bench would seem to me to be fairly obvious. Loughney for Fitzpatrick at around 50 mins, Reddan and ROG to come on at about 60-65 mins with Murray and Zebo/McFadden coming off (Sexton to 12 and Earls to the wing). Cronin might get 10 mins, Locky 5 and Cave is most likely there as injury cover. DOC is the only one that is hard to call, although I can see him coming on around 65 mins as well. That said I'd never have picked that starting XV so Deccie could surprise us again...

Despite some initial shock at the centre partnership, the idea is actually settling fairly well with me now. I'm excited to see how the 2 line up and how they play off each other. The starting pack is exactly what most of us here would have selected and I am delighted with it.

However Reddan should be starting. Most seem to be in agreement with that. And I'm still a little confused by Zebos rise to the starting XV. I've nothing against him and I hope he does well. He's an exciting talent. But like Murray he seems to have been parachuted into the starting berth quickly and easily compared to other players. And while Ferg can do a job on the wing he is more of a centre (12 rather than 13). I don't think the constant shifting around the back line at Leinster and Ireland can be helping him address some of the issues in his game, chiefly his defensive decision making.

Overall it's a positive selection - although exactly how many of the selections are driven by injuries is hard to tell. Now all we need is a positive game plan. We saw in 2010 that as long as we can match NZs intensity we have the players to cause them trouble. It's when we let that slip, even if just for 10 mins, that they will really punish us. It'll be interesting to see how they come out on Saturday but we need to be going after them from the very start to the very end.

gotapaininmy wrote: »

In fairness I think it's beacuse all those Munster lads you named have played Heineken cup on a regular basis.

Murray didn't have any HEC game time when he was selected. In fact he had a grand total of 8 starts for Munster when he was selected for Ireland. 2 in the Amlin and 6 in the Magners. Meanwhile another Irish SH who had been a big part of a great win over England in Irelands previous game and was part of a Leinster side that had just won the HEC was being left as 2nd choice to the guy. Since then Murray hasn't exactly lit the rugby world alight, Munster haven't been successful and Reddan has won another HEC medal with Leinster. But still Murray is first choice.

I've long argued against the idea of a Munster bias, but it's getting harder and harder to do so effectively. See GerMs post above as well.

Foxtrol

Fishooks12 wrote: »

ffs, that's a pretty pathetic post

Love the way you don't mention the fact that Darcy has been deadwood in the squad for the last 2 years too. But considering he's not a Munster player it wouldn't fit in with your attempts at provincial flaming

There were no obvious replacement for Darcy like there were for the others while Darcy was actually also performing quite well for Leinster.

Even ignoring that it's quite telling that you never engaged with the rest of the post. It has now gotten to the stage where Kidney has given us so much evidence to support that line of thinking that it is very hard to argue against.

Fishooks12

Foxtrol wrote: »

There were no obvious replacement for Darcy like there were for the others while Darcy was actually also performing quite well for Leinster.

Even ignoring that it's quite telling that you never engaged with the rest of the post. It has now gotten to the stage where Kidney has given us so much evidence to support that line of thinking that it is very hard to argue against.

The bits where he listed off Munster players from a "dying province"?

I think Kidney favors Munster players but I took exception to the "dying province" remark. It was flaming

TonyTonga

I think you would be highly delusional to argue against the Kidney Munster bias.

We have Murray, Zebo, POM parachuted into the starting team when Cian Healy, Sean O'Brien, Mike Ross are completely and utterly ignored until injury.

Put it this way, if the Leinster team were Munster players I reckon this would be the Irish starting 15

1.Healy
2.Best
3.Fitzpatrick
4.Touhy
5.Ryan
6.McLaughlin
7.O'Brien
8.Heaslip
9.Reddan
Sexton
11.D.Kearney
12.Earls
13.O'Driscoll
14.McFadden
15.Kearney

With Toner instead of O'Callaghan on the bench.

Otacon

gotapaininmy

GerM wrote: »

That's true but if you look at the other players that have come through under DK none have been introduced as rapidly as the players that have come through his home province.

Zebo, Murray, Ryan, Earls and POM were all introduced very quickly after a season at most of play when there were other options in their positions. Then take the likes of Healy who had 50 appearances with Leinster and a HEC medal before he was given a cap and only when Horan was injured. Mike Ross who had over a season and a half with Leinster and a good number of HEC appearances but was ignored for Tony Buckley and John Hayes throughout that time who were both injured before Ross was selected. Sean O'Brien had 2 or 3 seasons under his belt before being brought into the side and only when Heaslip and Ferris were injured (3 months before being named European player of the year) where his only previous start was in an autumn international against Samoa 18 months earlier.

Compare that with POM and Zebo who only made their HEC debuts this season and are starting shortly after for Ireland. Or Earls who had only made his Munster debut a few months before being handed an Irish start. Donnacha Ryan was in the Irish match day squad during Kidney's first few tests ever before ever starting a HEC game. Murray had only a handful of senior starts before being made Irish first choice.

I'm not saying DK is biased but I do think he's far more comfortable bringing in Munster players and giving them a run than players from elsewhere simply from past experience and his links there. Others seem to have to knock on the door for far longer and wait until a multitude of injuries occurs before they get their chance. The likes of Cave, Henry, Gilroy etc. will be lucky to get a few caps under DK despite being some of the best performing players in the country currently.

Yes would agree completely that the Mike Ross situation was and is laughable given his impotance to the team now.

Sean O'Brien's is less clear cut because at the time you had Wallace, Heaslip and Ferris all playing very well. I think there's a case now for playing Chris Henry at 7 and O'Brien at 8 and dropping Heaslip who hasn't had a decent game for Ireland in 2 years. Also as some other posters have mentioned, breaking up the Reddan/Sexton parthership makes no sense either but that's Kidney, Murray seems to be his man no matter what. Murray will be screwed next year when this 4 second rule for scrum halves at the base of rucks comes in.

TonyTonga

David Wallace was going through a horrible patch of form then. He was even dropped for Munster.

Foxtrol

Fishooks12 wrote: »

The bits where he listed off Munster players from a "dying province"?

I think Kidney favors Munster players but I took exception to the "dying province" remark. It was flaming

Saying that Munster is a dying province is quite inflammatory but you can’t argue the fact that Kidney fast tracking young Munster players is helping his home province.

I took issue with you trying to bring Darcy into it in order to deflect attention away from the points he made in the initial paragraph, which I believe are quite hard to argue.

clsmooth

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Earls passing has improved immeasurably over the last year. I've no worries about that aspect of his game (see the babaas game last week)

How can 'passing improve immeasurably'? If its immeasurable then how can you say it's improved?

Fishooks12

clsmooth wrote: »

How can 'passing improve immeasurably'? If its immeasurable then how can you say it's improved?

His passing has improved a lot. It's a turn of phrase. Not everything is supposed to be taken literally

GerM

gotapaininmy wrote: »

Yes would agree completely that the Mike Ross situation was and is laughable given his impotance to the team now.

Sean O'Brien's is less clear cut because at the time you had Wallace, Heaslip and Ferris all playing very well. I think there's a case now for playing Chris Henry at 7 and O'Brien at 8 and dropping Heaslip who hasn't had a decent game for Ireland in 2 years. Also as some other posters have mentioned, breaking up the Reddan/Sexton parthership makes no sense either but that's Kidney, Murray seems to be his man no matter what. Murray will be screwed next year when this 4 second rule for scrum halves at the base of rucks comes in.

The problem was that it was Denis Leamy keeping SOB out of proceedings not any of the above and this was only last season. If one of Heaslip or Ferris had been fit for that Italian game, I've no doubt Leamy would have been in the side along with two of the regulars and the course of SOB's international career would have taken a major set back.

The Heaslip thing has been done to death so lets not go down that road once more!