Ireland Tour to New Zealand 2012 Discussion thread

gotapaininmy

TonyTonga wrote: »

David Wallace was going through a horrible patch of form then. He was even dropped for Munster.

Was he? I don't remember that, who replaced him at 7 for Munster? I hadn't given the DK bias that much thought before but when you see it laid down the way it has been in this thread it is quite obvious. The selection of Murray is I believe one of the main contibuting factors to our turgid displays. He's too slow to get the ball away, I think we all recognise that except DK. In fairness to Murray he was quick to whip the ball away when he came on the scene first but maybe Deccie has got in his ear and hence the slow-mo at the base of rucks.

GerM

Fishooks12 wrote: »

His passing has improved a lot. It's a turn of phrase. Not everything is supposed to be taken literally

How do you turn a phrase?

TonyTonga

Lest we forget, until injuries forced Kidney's hand, we were starting Horan, Hayes, Leamy, Tomas O'Leary, Buckley

TonyTonga

gotapaininmy wrote: »

Was he? I don't remember that, who replaced him at 7 for Munster? I hadn't given the DK bias that much thought before but when you see it laid down the way it has been in this thread it is quite obvious. The selection of Murray is I believe one of the main contibuting factors to our turgid displays. He's too slow to get the ball away, I think we all recognise that except DK. In fairness to Murray he was quick to whip the ball away when he came on the scene first but maybe Deccie has got in his ear and hence the slow-mo at the base of rucks.

I think Murray has a lot to do with Munster's 'decline' as well.

Wallace was dropped for a number of games and was dreadful that season. He was dropped for a huge HC game I think it was against London Irish? Cant remember.

GerM

Wallace was carrying niggly injuries for about a year. Could have played but didn't. Ronan started that game and also the closing stages of the Pro12 six months earlier in the semi final against Leinster. Wallace benched for both.

gotapaininmy

The Heaslip thing has been done to death so lets not go down that road once more![/QUOTE]

Apologies, I'm not as regular a poster as yourself as you can see.

clsmooth

Fishooks12 wrote: »

His passing has improved a lot. It's a turn of phrase. Not everything is supposed to be taken literally

I never know with your posts..

Selection is interesting, but trimble should be ahead of Zebo (he'd be a good impact sub), Redden ahead of Murray and DOC should be at home with mcCarthy on the bench. Looking to forward to seeing how Earls and BOD link in the middle though. Trimble must wonder what he has to do to get a run. Had a great 2010 tour, excellent v England 2010 and in RWC warms ups but never get's a run whilst Zebo walks in confusing but hopefully he plays a cracker and runs in a few tries

ed7890

clsmooth wrote: »

I never know with your posts..

Selection is interesting, but trimble should be ahead of Zebo (he'd be a good impact sub), Redden ahead of Murray and DOC should be at home with mcCarthy on the bench. Looking to forward to seeing how Earls and BOD link in the middle though. Trimble must wonder what he has to do to get a run. Had a great 2010 tour, excellent v England 2010 and in RWC warms ups but never get's a run whilst Zebo walks in confusing but hopefully he plays a cracker and runs in a few tries

Didn't he start all 5 games in the Six Nations?

Fishooks12

clsmooth wrote: »

I never know with your posts..

Selection is interesting, but trimble should be ahead of Zebo (he'd be a good impact sub), Redden ahead of Murray and DOC should be at home with mcCarthy on the bench. Looking to forward to seeing how Earls and BOD link in the middle though. Trimble must wonder what he has to do to get a run. Had a great 2010 tour, excellent v England 2010 and in RWC warms ups but never get's a run whilst Zebo walks in confusing but hopefully he plays a cracker and runs in a few tries

As Ak pointed out there really isn't much benefit to playing either DOC or McCarthy as both will never really be first choice international starters given their age. Toner should have traveled ahead of both of them and Cullen is an older guy playing better rugby too

TonyTonga

Kidney has his favourites:
O'Callaghan,POM,Murray,Zebo,O'Gara, Earls

these guys will either be parachuted into the first team, or will be involved in the 22 no matter what form they are in.

But Kidney also has a number of people he seemingly dislikes. These players will be dropped at a moments notice no matter what form they are in. Usually, though not always for one of Kidney's favourites these players are:
Cullen, Fitzgerald, Touhy, Reddan, Sexton, Trimble

gotapaininmy

TonyTonga wrote: »

Kidney has his favourites:
O'Callaghan,POM,Murray,Zebo,O'Gara, Earls

these guys will either be parachuted into the first team, or will be involved in the 22 no matter what form they are in.

But Kidney also has a number of people he seemingly dislikes. These players will be dropped at a moments notice no matter what form they are in. Usually, though not always for one of Kidney's favourites these players are:
Cullen, Fitzgerald, Touhy, Reddan, Sexton, Trimble

I think you're being a bit harsh there, was it not Kidney who picked Sexton ahead of ROG after the grand slam season? Johnny has started most of the games under Kidney. It's undeniable that Kidney does have his favourites alright. O'Callaghan has been a great servant but how do you get picked for your counrty and not for your province? Murray has been discussed already. Fitzgerald was playing rubbish at the time of the world cup squad selection and deserved to be dropped.

twinytwo

Clegg wrote: »

BOD at his peak, was a better player than Conrad Smith.

However BOD is no longer at his peak and Smith is in the prime of his career. Smith is better now imo. He's probably the best 13 in the world.

smith is nearly 31 hardly the prime of his career... he does the same kind of work drico does... if you watched the world cup you would see he operates well in defence and works mainly as a link man in attack.

If i had to pick a team tomorrow between the irish and ab players drico would still get the 13 shirt.

twinytwo

TonyTonga wrote: »

I think Murray has a lot to do with Munster's 'decline' as well.

Wallace was dropped for a number of games and was dreadful that season. He was dropped for a huge HC game I think it was against London Irish? Cant remember.

dude seriously??? our biggest problem the reluctance to develop players... they seemed to think that hayes, wallace etc would be around for ever. Even if murray wasnt there we would still have been **** this year.

Fishooks12

twinytwo wrote: »

dude seriously??? our biggest problem the reluctance to develop players... they seemed to think that hayes, wallace etc would be around for ever. Even if murray wasnt there we would still have been **** this year.

Not to mention that Murray played a big part in winning our last trophy

TonyTonga

Murray completely impedes the backline. I'm telling you, Murray is a massive problem.

The loss to Ulster in the QF I'd attribute to two factors and one of them was Murray's slowness at the breakdown which allowed Chris Henry to run riot

mar-z

TonyTonga wrote: »

Kidney has his favourites:
O'Callaghan,POM,Murray,Zebo,O'Gara, Earls

these guys will either be parachuted into the first team, or will be involved in the 22 no matter what form they are in.

But Kidney also has a number of people he seemingly dislikes. These players will be dropped at a moments notice no matter what form they are in. Usually, though not always for one of Kidney's favourites these players are:
Cullen, Fitzgerald, Touhy, Reddan, Sexton, Trimble

Putting Zebo and POM into the 'favourites' section is a bit much. Zebo's first pick and POM is in form (if exagerrated somewhat by some). Seems to be your hammering home a point?

Putting in Fitz in the dislike I would also argue against as he was in poor form before the WC and we had strength on the wings and he has also been injured a lot.

You could have argued Sexton before but he seems to be first choice now.

I would add Wallace to his dislike list though.

Edit: D'Arcy and BOD could be added to the favourites. BOD because he's great but he should have been rested in some smaller games in the past and D'Arcy because his Irish form isn't great, although with D'Arcy I would argue it is his dislike of Wallace who is the only real alternative thats the problem.

TonyTonga

Zebo is parachuted into the starting 11, having never even subbed. I think hes definitely a favourite.

gotapaininmy

mar-z wrote: »

Putting Zebo and POM into the 'favourites' section is a bit much. Zebo's first pick and POM is in form (if exagerrated somewhat by some). Seems to be your hammering home a point?

Putting in Fitz in the dislike I would also argue against as he was in poor form before the WC and we had strength on the wings and he has also been injured a lot.

You could have argued Sexton before but he seems to be first choice now.

I would add Wallace to his dislike list though.

Edit: D'Arcy and BOD could be added to the favourites. BOD because he's great but he should have been rested in some smaller games in the past and D'Arcy because his Irish form isn't great, although with D'Arcy I would argue it is his dislike of Wallace who is the only real alternative thats the problem.

Wallace as in Paddy Wallace?? He got picked in the first six nations squad even though he hadn't played a game in 2 months!!

Tox56

TonyTonga wrote: »

Zebo is parachuted into the starting 11, having never even subbed. I think hes definitely a favourite.

I think Trapattoni would have a lot to answer for if Zebo went straight into the starting 11.

gotapaininmy

Tox56 wrote: »

I think Trapattoni would have a lot to answer for if Zebo went straight into the starting 11.

Hahaha well spotted!:D

mar-z

TonyTonga wrote: »

Zebo is parachuted into the starting 11, having never even subbed. I think hes definitely a favourite.

I think you can use this as a potential argument for Munster bias on Kidney's part but saying Zebo is a favourite (after DK didn't call him up for the 6N) is a bit much. If he is consistantly picked from here on out than I would agree.

Anyway maybe I'm arguing a bit too much over semantics so ignore me.

TonyTonga

Tox56 wrote: »

I think Trapattoni would have a lot to answer for if Zebo went straight into the starting 11.

euro fever

TonyTonga

mar-z wrote: »

I think you can use this as a potential argument for Munster bias on Kidney's part but saying Zebo is a favourite (after DK didn't call him up for the 6N) is a bit much. If he is consistantly picked from here on out than I would agree.

Anyway maybe I'm arguing a bit too much over semantics so ignore me.

Isn't that the point? The chap has gone from not even being in squads to starting at 11 against New Zealand. The last time we saw that happen was Connor Murray in the world cup.

cp

TonyTonga wrote: »

I think Murray has a lot to do with Munster's 'decline' as well.

Sorry but that's absolute nonsense. Munster were well in decline before Murray came on the scene - you're talking about a guy who only broke into the team 13/14 months ago.

Have to say also, as a leinster fan, I think the slating of Murray on this forum is getting a bit tiresome. This is still a guy who has less than 10 caps for Ireland, and while he certainly wasn't in form during the 6N, he is still very much the future Irish 9. Therefore playing him in these games ahead of a 31 year old makes perfect sense. Now is the time to start building towards 2015 and next years 6N.

Irrespective of Kidneys favorites, and there are some, Murray has shown that he can produce quick ball, think last years magners league final, he just needs to have the 'Munster way' at the base of the scrum coached out of him - eminently doable and I'd have big hopes for Rob Penney in that regard. And to be perfectly honest, you can forget about Marshall as an international class scrummie - the guys an excellent provincial player but anyone who watched the Ulster v Munster league match a few weeks ago, and the way Murray bossed him will know that he's not a better player, and at 26 he's not gonna make the step up.

mar-z

gotapaininmy wrote: »

Wallace as in Paddy Wallace?? He got picked in the first six nations squad even though he hadn't played a game in 2 months!!

He is the form 12 in the country and doesn't get pickedin a squad with only one 12 in it who's out of form. Where in the first test the starting centres are two 13's (or if you look at it a 13 and a wing).

So I would say now he is a disliked player if we are referring to in-form players not picked.

mar-z

TonyTonga wrote: »

Isn't that the point? The chap has gone from not even being in squads to starting at 11 against New Zealand. The last time we saw that happen was Connor Murray in the world cup.

Sorry as I said I'm probably arguing over semantics. My original point is I just don't think you can call someone a favourite after one game being picked.

Anyway can we leave this here as I agree there were better options (although I am excited to see how he'll do while dreading a possible defensive nightmare)

TonyTonga

cp wrote: »

Sorry but that's absolute nonsense. Munster were well in decline before Murray came on the scene - you're talking about a guy who only broke into the team 13/14 months ago.

Have to say also, as a leinster fan, I think the slating of Murray on this forum is getting a bit tiresome. This is still a guy who has less than 10 caps for Ireland, and while he certainly wasn't in form during the 6N, he is still very much the future Irish 9. Therefore playing him in these games ahead of a 31 year old makes perfect sense. Now is the time to start building towards 2015 and next years 6N.

Irrespective of Kidneys favorites, and there are some, Murray has shown that he can produce quick ball, think last years magners league final, he just needs to have the 'Munster way' at the base of the scrum coached out of him - eminently doable and I'd have big hopes for Rob Penney in that regard. And to be perfectly honest, you can forget about Marshall as an international class scrummie - the guys an excellent provincial player but anyone who watched the Ulster v Munster league match a few weeks ago, and the way Murray bossed him will know that he's not a better player, and at 26 he's not gonna make the step up.

Murray is terrible the very fact that you have to revert back to a single game a year ago as proof that hes not is in itself telling.

Hes slow, hes ponderous, his pass is inconsistent, he gets too involved in rucks, he makes the wrong decisions. Never in my life have I ever seen so many players acting as scrumhalf in one game than I have whenever Murray starts.

He ruins the backine, absolutely decimates it.

gotapaininmy

mar-z wrote: »

He is the form 12 in the country and doesn't get pickedin a squad with only one 12 in it who's out of form. Where in the first test the starting centres are two 13's (or if you look at it a 13 and a wing).

So I would say now he is a disliked player if we are referring to in-form players not picked.

Maybe that's where Paddy is going wrong, he's playing too well, he got picked for the 6N when he hadn't been playing at all!!:D

gotapaininmy

TonyTonga wrote: »

Murray is terrible the very fact that you have to revert back to a single game a year ago as proof that hes not is in itself telling.

Hes slow, hes ponderous, his pass is inconsistent, he gets too involved in rucks, he makes the wrong decisions. Never in my life have I ever seen so many players acting as scrumhalf in one game than I have whenever Murray starts.

He ruins the backine, absolutely decimates it.

Can't agree with as sweeping a statement as that. Anybody who saw Murray when he came on the scene first could see how quickly he got the ball out of the ruck, it was one of the most impressive things about him along with his physicality. His game became slow when he got involved in the Ireland set-up and he brought this back to Munster with him, so who do you blame for that, the player? Ireland backs-coach or DK?

TonyTonga

gotapaininmy wrote: »

Can't agree with as sweeping a statement as that. Anybody who saw Murray when he came on the scene first could see how quickly he got the ball out of the ruck, it was one of the most impressive things about him along with his physicality. His game became slow when he got involved in the Ireland set-up and he brought this back to Munster with him, so who do you blame for that, the player? Ireland backs-coach or DK?

Does it matter whose to blame? The fact is, as you have admitted, hes now slow. It doesnt matter a jot what his performances were like a year ago.