Ireland Tour to New Zealand 2012 Discussion thread

Scioch · 07-06-2012 4:42pm

mikedragon32 wrote: »

Do they ever go away?

Seagulls do, there are some resident trolls though who revel in the drama.

TonyTonga · 07-06-2012 4:42pm

mikedragon32 wrote: »

If you have a problem with posts, report them, Tony.

No problem Mikedragon, just making a small joke.

TonyTonga · 07-06-2012 4:44pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

Touhy has called the lineout in the past for Ulster when Muller isn't playing, though I don't know how regular that is. The only option who regularly runs the lineout is McCarthy anyway.

And hes not even on the bench if the lineout goes wrong. Toner calls the lineouts as well, it wouldn't have been a bad idea to have him on the bench just in case.

In fact, Toner was brilliant last time he played New Zealand.

Fireball07 · 07-06-2012 4:45pm

TonyTonga wrote: »

Lets continue starting him so in the hope that he'll suddenly turn good.

Someone, anyone, please tell me why you would break up a back to back HC winning half back partnership that also started in the epic win over Australia?

I don't think Murray deserves to start but I'm not saying he's a write-off. Had a good game against the BaaBaas by all accounts, and don't forget his defence is very good too. Hopefully he can get going...it's up to him really. He's got to start delivering more consistently.

TonyTonga · 07-06-2012 4:48pm

A good game against the BaaBaas. Fair enough.

Cpt_Blackbeard · 07-06-2012 4:52pm

Ryan called the lineouts during the 6N and looked pretty impressive doing so.

danthefan · 07-06-2012 4:53pm

Fairly happy with the team. The first positive selection Kidinme has made in seasons. Hopefully we get a performance to match.

Tox56 · 07-06-2012 4:54pm

I also think Tuohy has called the lineouts in the absence of Muller and has done pretty well. I'm open to correction on that though.

Scioch · 07-06-2012 4:59pm

What are the roles of the 4 and 5 in relation to the line out ? Does it depend on the players or is there set roles for each ?

How does someone call a line out ? Read the opposition and choose the best option to sneak one past them ? Some would be better than others at reading things then I presume.

WeeBushy · 07-06-2012 5:06pm

LordSmeg wrote: »

What are the roles of the 4 and 5 in relation to the line out ? Does it depend on the players or is there set roles for each ?

How does someone call a line out ? Read the opposition and choose the best option to sneak one past them ? Some would be better than others at reading things then I presume.

There are quite a few things to take into account when choosing what line out to call; position on the pitch, how your opposition are lined up, what the plan is with the ball after the line out, whose been dominant in the air for you, what line outs you've called so far, is it windy, is your hooker throwing well etc. There are a lot of things to consider when choosing the correct call, some people are better than others at making that decision.

*Generally* you'll have your more athletic lock (loosehead lock) at 4 where there is more movement, with the stronger 'enforcer' (tighthead lock) at 2 where you are more likely to be jumping directly against someone.

Well, that's how I view the line out anyway.

TonyTonga · 07-06-2012 5:17pm

The problem was Ireland never had an enforcer lock. O'Callaghan and O'Connell for all their qualities are a bit 'soft' in that department. Neither could be called an enforcer. Nor could Cullen or McCarthy. However Touhy seems to be an absolute brute who will hopefully be a key ingredient that we've been missing. I think Henderson in a few years will be our Baakies Botha.

GerM · 07-06-2012 5:29pm

TonyTonga wrote: »

The problem was Ireland never had an enforcer lock.

We've had them, we just don't like them. We've always preferred athletic, mobile locks most of who could play at 6. MOD, Tuohy, DOC, McCarthy, Ryan, McCullough etc. have all played 6 for spells of their professional career. Even Cullen played 8 in his early for Ireland up until U21 level. POC is like an extra flanker in his mobility and breakdown work.

We've never been too interested in the likes of Caldwell, Casey, Swift, Browne etc. who are powerful in the tight and do the dirty work.

Hype710 · 07-06-2012 5:33pm

GerM wrote: »

We've had them, we just don't like them. We've always preferred athletic, mobile locks most of who could play at 6. MOD, Tuohy, DOC, McCarthy, Ryan, McCullough etc. have all played 6 for spells of their professional career. Even Cullen played 8 in his early for Ireland up until U21 level. POC is like an extra flanker in his mobility and breakdown work.

We've never been too interested in the likes of Caldwell, Casey, Swift, Browne etc. who are powerful in the tight and do the dirty work.

I agree but I wouldn't have Caldwell in the same bracket as those lads. He is among the most athletic locks we have produced and like POC, is well capable as a 4 or 5.

shaungil · 07-06-2012 5:37pm

@TonyTonga, interesting point but can you expand on wht you mean by "enforcer". It brings up some scary conatations:D

GerM · 07-06-2012 5:37pm

Hype710 wrote: »

I agree but I wouldn't have Caldwell in the same bracket as those lads. He is among the most athletic locks we have produced and like POC, is well capable as a 4 or 5.

I agree, I massively rate him and think it's a silly rule that we're ignoring one of the few all round players that we have at lock. I put him in there more as an enforcer as he has that bit of grunt and nastiness although he has athleticism and handling to match it.

Hype710 · 07-06-2012 5:41pm

GerM wrote: »

I agree, I massively rate him and think it's a silly rule that we're ignoring one of the few all round players that we have at lock. I put him in there more as an enforcer as he has that bit of grunt and nastiness although he has athleticism and handling to match it.

He does, and indeed it's one of the crying shames of Irish rugby at the moment that perhaps our most talented lock after POC is off tearing up the AP and not getting a look in. I read the Mole lamenting the loss of Staunton to Irish rugby and I couldn't help but feel the same way about Caldwell. Still hope Leinster pick him up next year!

jm08 · 07-06-2012 5:47pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Wait a minute... JM08 usually pops in when ireland matches are incoming...

Tony is like the anti-jm..

I haven't gone away you know

dtpc191991 · 07-06-2012 6:13pm

TonyTonga wrote: »

To be honest all this talk of birds is crapping all over this thread!

Heres one thats gone relatively under the radar....Will the lineout be a shambles? One can assume that Fitzpatrick isn't overly familar with the calls and I don't think either Touhy or Ryan normally call the lineout.

Could be a peoblem. That said, the Lineout isn't an area that New Zealand have been great shakes themselves at in recent years.

TonyTonga · 07-06-2012 6:17pm

shaungil wrote: »

@TonyTonga, interesting point but can you expand on wht you mean by "enforcer". It brings up some scary conatations:D

See from 45 seconds on

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyI1UQfT6K0

val_jester · 07-06-2012 6:23pm

GerM wrote: »

I agree, I massively rate him and think it's a silly rule that we're ignoring one of the few all round players that we have at lock. I put him in there more as an enforcer as he has that bit of grunt and nastiness although he has athleticism and handling to match it.

Caldwell isn't being ignored because he's playing abroad, he is being ignored because he is a brainless oaf. There is a reason he wasn't starting for Ulster last season and until he learns the rules of rugby and to actually listen to the referee he won't be selected for Ireland. Its a pity that he is such an idiot because he is very athletic as you say and as all the other attributes needed to play international rugby.

shuffol · 07-06-2012 6:25pm

GerM wrote: »

We've had them, we just don't like them. We've always preferred athletic, mobile locks most of who could play at 6. MOD, Tuohy, DOC, McCarthy, Ryan, McCullough etc. have all played 6 for spells of their professional career. Even Cullen played 8 in his early for Ireland up until U21 level. POC is like an extra flanker in his mobility and breakdown work.

We've never been too interested in the likes of Caldwell, Casey, Swift, Browne etc. who are powerful in the tight and do the dirty work.

No matter how hard I try I cant imagine Leo Cullen as an 8, who'd be the best enforcer type lock we've produced in recent memory, Brennan?. I wonder is it a deliberate ploy to select more athletic locks or do we just pick the best 2 locks and not think of their roles too much.

07-06-2012 6:25pm

val_jester wrote: »

Caldwell isn't being ignored because he's playing abroad, he is being ignored because he is was a brainless oaf. There is a reason he wasn't starting for Ulster last season and until he learns the rules of rugby and to actually listen to the referee he won't be selected for Ireland. Its a pity that he is such an idiot because he is very athletic as you say and as all the other attributes needed to play international rugby.

fyp

He's growing a head. Has been really really very good for Bath all season (one incident excepted).

blackdog2 · 07-06-2012 6:28pm

GerM wrote: »

We've had them, we just don't like them. We've always preferred athletic, mobile locks most of who could play at 6. MOD, Tuohy, DOC, McCarthy, Ryan, McCullough etc. have all played 6 for spells of their professional career. Even Cullen played 8 in his early for Ireland up until U21 level. POC is like an extra flanker in his mobility and breakdown work.

We've never been too interested in the likes of Caldwell, Casey, Swift, Browne etc. who are powerful in the tight and do the dirty work.

Actually, I think POC is not mobile, and a poor enforcer. He seems slow and lumbering while carrying, while I think his breakdown work is distinctly average. I can't wait to see what is brought to the pitch with an extra mobile lock in the team

jm08 · 07-06-2012 6:30pm

val_jester wrote: »

Caldwell isn't being ignored because he's playing abroad, he is being ignored because he is a brainless oaf. There is a reason he wasn't starting for Ulster last season and until he learns the rules of rugby and to actually listen to the referee he won't be selected for Ireland. Its a pity that he is such an idiot because he is very athletic as you say and as all the other attributes needed to play international rugby.

Harsh - but true.

Benny Cake · 07-06-2012 6:31pm

blackdog2 wrote: »

Actually, I think POC is not mobile, and a poor enforcer. He seems slow and lumbering while carrying, while I think his breakdown work is distinctly average. I can't wait to see what is brought to the pitch with an extra mobile lock in the team

Tell us what you really think..... POC is widely regarded as one of the worlds best locks, no??

irishbucsfan · 07-06-2012 6:31pm

Deleted User wrote: »

fyp

He's growing a head. Has been really really very good for Bath all season (one incident excepted).

Hopefully he's copped on a little off the field as well, because it wasn't just the sin binnings that had him dropped. Although thatll be impossible to know.

I still personally think he's a couple of years away from convincing me to want him back in the fold. A couple of seasons of disciplined, focused play is what he needs to show.

TonyTonga · 07-06-2012 6:32pm

val_jester wrote: »

Caldwell isn't being ignored because he's playing abroad, he is being ignored because he is a brainless oaf. There is a reason he wasn't starting for Ulster last season and until he learns the rules of rugby and to actually listen to the referee he won't be selected for Ireland. Its a pity that he is such an idiot because he is very athletic as you say and as all the other attributes needed to play international rugby.

The lad has been sensational whenever I've seen him play.

TonyTonga · 07-06-2012 6:40pm

Benny Cake wrote: »

Tell us what you really think..... POC is widely regarded as one of the worlds best locks, no??

No. In Ireland he is. But I don't think you could regard him as one of the world's best. I mean off the top of my head in the NH alone you have Thorn, Hines and Gray who are all better than him.

Fishooks12 · 07-06-2012 6:42pm

TonyTonga wrote: »

No. In Ireland he is. But I don't think you could regard him as one of the world's best. I mean off the top of my head in the NH alone you have Thorn, Hines and Gray who are all better than him.

I see you're still trolling away

Hines a better lock than POC?? That's hilarious

Cpt_Blackbeard · 07-06-2012 6:45pm

TonyTonga wrote: »

No. In Ireland he is. But I don't think you could regard him as one of the world's best. I mean off the top of my head in the NH alone you have Thorn, Hines and Gray who are all better than him.

No, he is pretty much unanimously regarded as one of the best locks in the world. With Thorn and Matfield pretty much gone from the game, he'd have a claim at being the best lock around.

Ireland Tour to New Zealand 2012 Discussion thread

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