Ireland Tour to New Zealand 2012 Discussion thread

Fireball07

POC is the best of that type of lock in Europe, no doubt about it. Gray has pace and greater mobility + good hands for a lock. They'd be an incredible partnership (hopefully we'll see it with the Lions), but I would take POC ahead of Thorn and Hines, definitely.

mar-z

Fishooks12 wrote: »

I see you're still trolling away

Hines a better lock than POC?? That's hilarious

Off topic but Hines and POC would have been immense together.

danthefan

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

No, he is pretty much unanimously regarded as one of the best locks in the world. With Thorn and Matfield pretty much gone from the game, he'd have a claim at being the best lock around.

It's far from unanimous in the southern hemisphere.

I personally think he's one of the best in Europe and was in some very good form earlier this year. I just wish he'd stick to what he's good at, and by that I mean stop standing one out from the ruck looking for carries.

Ireland obviously will miss him big time over the course of this tour.

irishbucsfan

Not many people in their right minds who would argue against POC. Just an animal when he gets going.

And a great pack leader too. Hell be hugely missed this summer.

.ak

Lads, I can't believe you've all forgotten Big Mal! He's probably been the closest thing to an abrasive 'enforcer' type lock for me in recent years.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQsZ_1KNmLc

Fireball07

danthefan wrote: »

It's far from unanimous in the southern hemisphere.

I personally think he's one of the best in Europe and was in some very good form earlier this year. I just wish he'd stick to what he's good at, and by that I mean stop standing one out from the ruck looking for carries.

Aye, but the SH people have an incredibly inflated opinion of themselves. Okay, NZ did win the World Cup, no one denies that they are the best team in the world. But at the same time, a hugely-hyped Australia team were quite poor against an Irish side coached by the much-maligned Kidney. And SA were very average tbh.

And the defence in Super 15 rugby looks to be non-existent at times yet they still think that it's miles better than Heineken Cup.

Have to think some of their opinions with a pinch of salt.

Benny Cake

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Not many people in their right minds who would argue against POC. Just an animal when he gets going.

And a great pack leader too. Hell be hugely missed this summer.

Highlighted bit is the key point....

irishbucsfan

Wouldn't have described Mal as an enforcer tbh. Not even close. He was big but he wasn't aggressive enough to be a Botha-esque player. He wasn't actually even that big for his height.

Will always love him though. I believe he was the last amateur to start for Ireland?

danthefan

Fireball07 wrote: »

Aye, but the SH people have an incredibly inflated opinion of themselves. Okay, NZ did win the World Cup, no one denies that they are the best team in the world. But at the same time, a hugely-hyped Australia team were quite poor against an Irish side coached by the much-maligned Kidney. And SA were very average tbh.

And the defence in Super 15 rugby looks to be non-existent at times yet they still think that it's miles better than Heineken Cup.

Have to think some of their opinions with a pinch of salt.

Well that's probably because they're much, much better at rugby than us.

twinytwo

TonyTonga wrote: »

No. In Ireland he is. But I don't think you could regard him as one of the world's best. I mean off the top of my head in the NH alone you have Thorn, Hines and Gray who are all better than him.

In terms of the lineout, Maitfield said himself that POC was the best he had ever played against.

Personally i dont like him carrying the ball... he would tell you himself its not his strong point.

With regard to the rest of his game, you would be hard pushed to find anyone better than he is.

Id take him over any of those 3 any day. But then as we know you have something against anyone in a munster shirt

Tox56

Clearly don't know what you're talking about if you don't think DOC is a hard-as-nails enforcer..

.ak

Fishooks12 wrote: »

I see you're still trolling away

Hines a better lock than POC?? That's hilarious

If I had to pick a team tomorrow I'd have Hines over POC. POC's a beast in the engine room, and massive influential in scrums and mauls because of that. But Hines is the better all round lock imo. That's just the way it is... Gray is nowhere near as good as either of them to be honest.

TonyTonga

Sorry but I would take Hines, Thorn and Gray over POC anyday. All 3 have hands like backs and can make yards, something POC doesn't have. Gray is better than POC at jumping, Thorn's workrate is marginally better, Hines is far better in support.

danthefan

.ak wrote: »

If I had to pick a team tomorrow I'd have Hines over POC. POC's a beast in the engine room, and massive influential in scrums and mauls because of that. But Hines is the better all round lock imo. That's just the way it is... Gray is nowhere near as good as either of them to be honest.

Agree on Gray. Having watched Hines up close for two seasons I got to appreciate how good he is. There are certainly some things he does better than POC, there's also some things POC does better. They're actually very different players imo.

TonyTonga

Fishooks12 wrote: »

I see you're still trolling away

Hines a better lock than POC?? That's hilarious

Yeah its trolling to say Hines is better than POC :rolleyes:

Hines was the best lock in europe this season. No doubt about that. Did you even watch him for Clermont?

Fishooks12

TonyTonga wrote: »

Sorry but I would take Hines, Thorn and Gray over POC anyday. All 3 have hands like backs and can make yards, something POC doesn't have. Gray is better than POC at jumping, Thorn's workrate is marginally better, Hines is far better in support.

That's not nor has it ever been POC's job

Grey might be taller but no one reads a lineout like POC

Fishooks12

TonyTonga wrote: »

Yeah its trolling to say Hines is better than POC :rolleyes:

Hines was the best lock in europe this season. No doubt about that. Did you even watch him for Clermont?

It's the fact that you've joined up today and have done nothing but talk about Munster players supposed deficiency's

irishbucsfan

TonyTonga wrote: »

Sorry but I would take Hines, Thorn and Gray over POC anyday. All 3 have hands like backs and can make yards, something POC doesn't have. Gray is better than POC at jumping, Thorn's workrate is marginally better, Hines is far better in support.

POCs technique, power and work rate off the ball outstrips all of those guys though.

And Gray isnt better than POC in the line out, he's just not. Makes a lot of silly errors, he is saved by his height. That's why Toner shows him up when they meet. POC is just an immensely good jumper and organiser.

Tox56

I was just about to say that, Toner has outplayed Gray (at least in the lineout) the last few times they've played in my opinion.

Fishooks12

irishbucsfan wrote: »

POCs technique, power and work rate off the ball outstrips all of those guys though.

And Gray isnt better than POC in the line out, he's just not. Makes a lot of silly errors, he is saved by his height. That's why Toner shows him up when they meet. POC is just an immensely good jumper and organiser.

The voice of reason again. +1

Why are we even discussing an injured player btw?!

.ak

danthefan wrote: »

Agree on Gray. Having watched Hines up close for two seasons I got to appreciate how good he is. There are certainly some things he does better than POC, there's also some things POC does better. They're actually very different players imo.

That's fair enough - I suppose it depends on what game you'd want to play.

TonyTonga

irishbucsfan wrote: »

POCs technique, power and work rate off the ball outstrips all of those guys though.

And Gray isnt better than POC in the line out, he's just not. Makes a lot of silly errors, he is saved by his height. That's why Toner shows him up when they meet. POC is just an immensely good jumper and organiser.

I highly doubt POCs technique,power and work rate outstrip Thorns.

Although I suppose Gray is a bit more debatable but I didn't think people would even attempt to try argue against Thorn and Hines being better players.

shuffol

Hines is a great foil to have in a strong pack, it allows him to concentrate on his role as an enforcer which he does as well as anyone. POC on the otherhand is a pack leader, he just dominates games and plays them on his own terms, super player. As a Leinster fan if I was offered either player I'd probably take Hines as he compliments the rest of the pack more. I think Hines needs to be in a top side to really stand out whereas POC you'd notice in any side.

Fishooks12

TonyTonga wrote: »

I highly doubt POCs technique,power and work rate outstrip Thorns.

Although I suppose Gray is a bit more debatable but I didn't think people would even attempt to try argue against Thorn and Hines being better players.

Do you realise that they are completely different types of Lock and comparison is rather futile considering the different roles they fulfill in their teams?

Fever123

I can not believe he has chosen Murray as the scrum half. Has Kidney not learnt from the World Cup. The real problem with Irish rugby is the manager and the idiots in the IRFU who gave him a new contract weeks before the World Cup. Did they not think about waiting to see how he would have got on. Time to get the HC coach down to Lansdowne Road.

Fishooks12

Fever123 wrote: »

I can not believe he has chosen Murray as the scrum half. Has Kidney not learnt from the World Cup. The real problem with Irish rugby is the manager and the idiots in the IRFU who gave him a new contract weeks before the World Cup. Did they not think about waiting to see how he would have got on. Time to get the HC coach down to Lansdowne Road.

He'll have a lonely tour!

TonyTonga

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Do you realise that they are completely different types of Lock and comparison is rather futile considering the different roles they fulfill in their teams?

I think you're overstating it to put it lightly. Thats like saying its rather futile to discuss the merits of Sexton over O'Gara because they fulfill different roles when they play.

Tox56

TonyTonga wrote: »

I highly doubt POCs technique,power and work rate outstrip Thorns.

Although I suppose Gray is a bit more debatable but I didn't think people would even attempt to try argue against Thorn and Hines being better players.

POC is a Lions captain, Hines wasn't even in the matchday test squads.

Fishooks12

TonyTonga wrote: »

I think you're overstating it to put it lightly. Thats like saying its rather futile to discuss the merits of Sexton over O'Gara because they fulfill different roles when they play.

tbh I think I'm done engaging with you. I'm sure you'll be along to ruin the match thread in the morning so I bid you adieu

No need to send me anymore PM's btw

Benny Cake

Tox56 wrote: »

POC is a Lions captain, Hines wasn't even in the matchday test squads.

Cop on Tox..... logic like that has no place here