Ireland Tour to New Zealand 2012 Discussion thread

irishbucsfan

TonyTonga wrote: »

I highly doubt POCs technique,power and work rate outstrip Thorns.

Although I suppose Gray is a bit more debatable but I didn't think people would even attempt to try argue against Thorn and Hines being better players.

Off the ball in open play POC is superb. In defense he is the best lock in world rugby. And his leadership is vital to every team he is a part of.

Thorn is better in possession, as you would expect from an All Black. Although he does show his age now.

Anyway comparing Hines or Thorn to POC just doesn't make sense. POCs strengths are their weaknesses and vice versa. Thorn at his peak was the best of them but POC is very clearly one of the best around.

Cpt_Blackbeard

TonyTonga wrote: »

I think you're overstating it to put it lightly. Thats like saying its rather futile to discuss the merits of Sexton over O'Gara because they fulfill different roles when they play.

It would be more like discussing the merits of, to keep it on topic, SBW versus BOD. Both are centres, but both play completely different games.

TonyTonga

Tox56 wrote: »

POC is a Lions captain, Hines wasn't even in the matchday test squads.

Firstly players improve/disimprove over team. Secondly, in case you don't remember POC had a dreadful tour. There was talk across rugby forums that if he wasn't captain he would be dropped. POC has improved since then, just like Hines.

And by the way already a few posters have said they'd have Hines over POC so I'm clearly not the only one who thinks so.

danthefan

.ak wrote: »

That's fair enough - I suppose it depends on what game you'd want to play.

Hines suited Leinster to a tee, he has great hands and can stay on his feet after the tackle to offload, not to mention the pure niggle he brought. All that would make Leinster supporters appreciate him more and he possibly did suit Leinster more than POC would have (though in 10/11 for example if POC were available for Leinster the 2nd row combo would obviously have been POC/Hines). So I don't think it's especially outrageous if someone is of the opinion Hines is better than POC.

irishbucsfan

TonyTonga wrote: »

Firstly players improve/disimprove over team. Secondly, in case you don't remember POC had a dreadful tour. There was talk across rugby forums that if he wasn't captain he would be dropped. POC has improved since then, just like Hines.

Thats not the case at all. POC was great. I remember one of the games where the Lions were under huge pressure right at the death and he plunged into the contact area and emerged with a turnover that won the game. He was excellent.

Such anti-Munster bias! Can't understand it.

Fishooks12

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Thats not the case at all. POC was great. I remember one of the games where the Lions were under huge pressure right at the death and he plunged into the contact area and emerged with a turnover that won the game. He was excellent.

Such anti-Munster bias! Can't understand it.

I'm just wondering why we've spent the last 2 pages talking about POC when he probably won't even play a game in the tour

Scioch

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Thats not the case at all. POC was great. I remember one of the games where the Lions were under huge pressure right at the death and he plunged into the contact area and emerged with a turnover that won the game. He was excellent.

Such anti-Munster bias! Can't understand it.

I dont recall him being excellent, I'm sure he wasnt bad but overall I just remember thinking it was a huge mistake to give him the captaincy. And I do recall a bit of talk too about his place only being guaranteed because he was captain. Its all a bit hazy though.

Fishooks12

LordSmeg wrote: »

I dont recall him being excellent, I'm sure he wasnt bad but overall I just remember thinking it was a huge mistake to give him the captaincy. And I do recall a bit of talk too about his place only being guaranteed because he was captain. Its all a bit hazy though.

His form in the run up to the tests was dodgy. He was very good during them though

Certainly not a mistake to give him the captaincy

Quinlan suggesting Donnacha Ryan will be the one calling the lineout...

Quinlan also saying BOD is playing 12 (BOD didn't correct him on it either)

Kidney interview as usual horrible!

irishbucsfan

Mad to think we're missing POC, Ferris and Bowe... So much quality missing.

I'm still very excited.

Fishooks12

Deleted User wrote: »

Quinlan suggesting Donnacha Ryan will be the one calling the lineout...

Quinlan also saying BOD is playing 12 (BOD didn't correct him on it either)

Kidney interview as usual horrible!

Linky emmet?

Horgan answering that question brilliantly.

basically - "Pressure on Kidney?"

answer "yes, but we want to see progress. Wins/Results may be beyond us considering injuries etc, but we need to see progress"

Benny Cake

Deleted User wrote: »

Quinlan suggesting Donnacha Ryan will be the one calling the lineout...

Quinlan also saying BOD is playing 12 (BOD didn't correct him on it either)

Kidney interview as usual horrible!

Are these interviews online?

Fishooks12

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Linky emmet?

sky sports 2 right now "Rugby Club"

twinytwo

LordSmeg wrote: »

I dont recall him being excellent, I'm sure he wasnt bad but overall I just remember thinking it was a huge mistake to give him the captaincy. And I do recall a bit of talk too about his place only being guaranteed because he was captain. Its all a bit hazy though.

Most people had a problem with the fact he wasnt dominating the lineout... against frigging victor matfield

TonyTonga

Fishooks12 wrote: »

His form in the run up to the tests was dodgy. He was very good during them though

Certainly not a mistake to give him the captaincy

There were huge grumblings about POC. He was really poor on the tour. and yes lots of talk about the fact that he shouldn't have been given the captaincy because people wanted him dropped.

but were going way off topic

TonyTonga

twinytwo wrote: »

Most people had a problem with the fact he wasnt dominating the lineout... against frigging victor matfield

Actually if I recall the main problem was POC slowing everything down, not making yards, getting turned over and a few stupid knock ons.

Fishooks12

An aspect of POC's game that makes him so valuable for club and country

val_jester

TonyTonga wrote: »

Actually if I recall the main problem was POC slowing everything down, not making yards, getting turned over and a few stupid knock ons.

The grumblings were coming from that muppet Stephen Jones who was unhappy that his pal Simon Shaw wasn't making the side. Poc has been in great form for the last few years whenever fit and his so called poor form on that tour was completely exaggerated by those unhappy to see him captaining the side.

The fact is that he would start for every side in the world at the minute if he were fit.

TomLamp

val_jester wrote: »

The grumblings were coming from that muppet Stephen Jones who was unhappy that his pal Simon Shaw wasn't making the side. Poc has been in great form for the last few years whenever fit and his so called poor form on that tour was completely exaggerated by those unhappy to see him captaining the side.

In fairness to that poster I was in Australia at the time and I distinctively remember POC being awful for the tour. I remember being in an Irish pub in Sydney and having a conversation with a load of Welsh and English lads and everyone being in disbelief at how poor O'Connell was.

With that said O'Connell is 100% better than Gray. Hes about even with Thorn but hes not as good as Hines of this year.

Otacon

TomLamp wrote: »

In fairness to that poster I was in Australia at the time and I distinctively remember POC being awful for the tour. I remember being in an Irish pub in Sydney and having a conversation with a load of Welsh and English lads and everyone being in disbelief at how poor O'Connell was.

With that said O'Connell is 100% better than Gray. Hes about even with Thorn but hes not as good as Hines of this year.

I think the bolded bit says something TBH. POC is normally world class, but he was not up to his usual standards on that tour.

blackdog2

Fishooks12 wrote: »

An aspect of POC's game that makes him so valuable for club and country

We lost

shaungil

For me POC Bod and Woody are the greatestest Irish players I've seen. O'Connell improves Munster and Ireland and brings the pack around him on. Regarding his role as enforcer I remember the incident for Munster against Cudmore where he took a cheap shot from Cudmore looked to the line then took another before he got stuck in.
Cudmore Red POC yellow, amazing discipline in that incident.
I think rugby has changed and blatant late hits and cheap shots is going so it's a moot point.There's a fine line which the likes of Lawes seemed to cross all to regularly. sure Thorn s an enforcer but it's as much tackling rucking ubelievably hard and being an annoying presence around the place.

GerM

shaungil wrote: »

Thorn s an enforcer but it's as much tackling rucking ubelievably hard and being an annoying presence around the place.

That's exactly what I consider an enforcer to be. Any clown can throw digs or play the hard man on the pitch. Plenty do. It's those that sort their opponents out during play and in a manner than ensures it's beneficial to their team that are the enforcers. Players who get caught up in hand bags, posturing or throwing slaps are just liabilities. Thorn, Nallet, Horwill, Botha etc all had massive work rates and power that gives their opponents serious headaches just through their normal play.

matthew8

GerM wrote: »

That's exactly what I consider an enforcer to be. Any clown can throw digs or play the hard man on the pitch. Plenty do. It's those that sort their opponents out during play and in a manner than ensures it's beneficial to their team that are the enforcers. Players who get caught up in hand bags, posturing or throwing slaps are just liabilities. Thorn, Nallet, Horwill, Botha etc all had massive work rates and power that gives their opponents serious headaches just through their normal play.

Weeeeell, cheating can help too. Was it not for Nathan Hines incredible blocking skill Clermont would not have scored the try that put them up late against Ulster in January.

shuffol

val_jester wrote: »

The grumblings were coming from that muppet Stephen Jones who was unhappy that his pal Simon Shaw wasn't making the side. Poc has been in great form for the last few years whenever fit and his so called poor form on that tour was completely exaggerated by those unhappy to see him captaining the side.

The fact is that he would start for every side in the world at the minute if he were fit.

Barnes was the same too, I remember the game against the Royal XV at the start of the last Lions tour, it was a largely ameteur side I think and the Lions struggled against them for the most part but pulled away at the end. Think POC was Motm and excelled in the stuff he's normally good at but Barnes wouldnt let up at how he was disappointed by his performance. One of his quotes was that he expected POC to be throwing guys who tried to tackle him out of the stadium or something to that effect. It's as though because it was an ameteur side POC should've been scoring length of the field sides.

WeeBushy

matthew8 wrote: »

Weeeeell, cheating can help too. Was it not for Nathan Hines incredible blocking skill Clermont would not have scored the try that put them up late against Ulster in January.

There's a big difference between cheating and cheating.

corkipedia

Simon Zebo is delighted before his debut against the All Blacks. He is said tp be beaming from ear to ear. See http://www.corkipedia.com/wiki/Simon_Zebo

desertcircus

matthew8 wrote: »

Weeeeell, cheating can help too. Was it not for Nathan Hines incredible blocking skill Clermont would not have scored the try that put them up late against Ulster in January.

Hines, however, has the good sense to ensure that any retaliatory cheap shots are done when nobody's looking and the cameras are elsewhere. He's one of the best in the world at dancing along the line between "cheating" and "getting caught".

Otacon

corkipedia wrote: »

Simon Zebo is delighted before his debut against the All Blacks. He is said tp be beaming from ear to ear. See http://www.corkipedia.com/wiki/Simon_Zebo

Happy for the lad. Hopefully he goes out there and gives a good account of himself.

BTW the article you should have linked to: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0608/1224317499994.html

Rather than advertising