Ireland Tour to New Zealand 2012 Discussion thread

Higher

CatFromHue wrote: »

Buckley had an excellent game the last time he played against NZ in NZ. He was one of Ireland's only performers on the day, himself and Trimble actually.

Just doing a quick look and he started 4 out of Sale's last 5 games and if I remember correctly he was getting his share of gametime up to the 6 Nations anyway.

I wouldn't be against him getting the nod ahead of McAllistair if we need a replacement.

That was two years ago for **** sake.

CatFromHue

Higher wrote: »

That was two years ago for **** sake.

Yup it was two years ago but just a reminder that against teams that don't have a massive scrum he can do all right.

danthefan

CatFromHue wrote: »

Yup it was two years ago but just a reminder that against teams that don't have a massive scrum he can do all right.

Apparently there were only 3 scrums in that game.

CatFromHue

danthefan wrote: »

Apparently there were only 3 scrums in that game.

ESPN have it down as 7.

http://www.espnscrum.com/statsguru/rugby/match/103843.html

CatFromHue

ESPN are saying that Earls is out of the second test.

http://www.espnscrum.com/ireland-tour-2012/rugby/story/165530.html

durkadurka

CatFromHue wrote: »

ESPN are saying that Earls is out of the second test.

http://www.espnscrum.com/ireland-tour-2012/rugby/story/165530.html

I think irfu tweeted that too.

Scioch

Darcy back in at 12 then I'd assume. Kidney will probably go with Zebo at 11, Trimble at 14 and drop Cave from the bench for McFadden.

Good news though in that Healy and Fitzpatrick are looking good.

http://www.irishtimes.com/sports/rugby/2012/0610/1224317651437.html

There was mixed news on the injury front for Ireland this morning with Cian Healy and Declan Fitzpatrick expected to be available for the second test against New Zealand. Keith Earls, however, was ruled out of next weekend’s match against the world champions after he sustained a pectoral muscle injury in the later stages of yesterday’s 42-10 defeat at Eden Park.

Clegg

We already had key players missing before the series even started and now we're missing even more.

We're going to lose by at least 50 in one of the remaining tests.

finatron

.ak wrote: »

+1 on this.

In terms of player for player we've got some of the best in the world. The only reason we have been underachieving is because of our coaching setup and how the IRFU behave.

Now, I am biased because I'm Irish, but realistically looking at player talent available, I think we should be 5th in the world. Basically behind the top 3 and France. That's where we should be aiming for, and then we need to look at OVER achieving and trying to break into that top 4. Then we can start developing a culture - you can see it in Leinster rugby, where it's not all about the one season, it's about keeping momentum and developing an ethos, that's the most valuable thing Joe Schmidt has brought to us and I have no doubt it's because of his Kiwi origins and how they threat the game there. We need to learn from it.

.

Player for Player new Zealand beat us hands down . How many Irish Players would make world 15 ? 2 maybe only 1 the fact is we just dont have the players to match the best teams .
Having said that i would defo call for a new coach for Ireland we play with little direction or game plan .
As for building ireland into a Leinster type team its time for irish fan to wake up Hcup is not test rugby level . One of the big reasons Leinster are so good is they have almost 12 or 13 test players where as most other teams might have 6 or 7.

sydthebeat

reddan, sexton, BOD, darcy, trimble, zebo / mc faddan, kearney....

hoping for a pi$sing wet christchurch with that back line to keep the scores acceptable. ie <15

jacothelad

CatFromHue wrote: »

Buckley had an excellent game the last time he played against NZ in NZ. He was one of Ireland's only performers on the day, himself and Trimble actually.

Just doing a quick look and he started 4 out of Sale's last 5 games and if I remember correctly he was getting his share of gametime up to the 6 Nations anyway.

I wouldn't be against him getting the nod ahead of McAllistair if we need a replacement.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Buckley is - loosely - a tighthead falling down and folding prop.
McAllister is a loosehead prop. Different games altogether. Kidney mustn't have heard of Andress who at least has the merit of not being a deckchair prop.

.ak

finatron wrote: »

Player for Player new Zealand beat us hands down . How many Irish Players would make world 15 ? 2 maybe only 1 the fact is we just dont have the players to match the best teams .
Having said that i would defo call for a new coach for Ireland we play with little direction or game plan .
As for building ireland into a Leinster type team its time for irish fan to wake up Hcup is not test rugby level . One of the big reasons Leinster are so good is they have almost 12 or 13 test players where as most other teams might have 6 or 7.

You just contradicted yourself in one post. H-Cup is pretty close to test level, but no one is saying it is the same as test level. It's as close as you'll get in my opinion. The amount of test players are meaningless in Leinster if you take on your first point that Irish test players don't match the better teams. The reason Leinster have so many starters is there are only effectively 3 provinces to pick from and at the moment the players Leinster have on their side have developed into world class test players.

I'll agree to disagree with you here. I also think the 'how many Irish players would make a world 15' is a silly argument because it's so hypothetical. But let's say we did entertain it. A starting 15, divided by the world's top tier countries; NZ, Aus, SA, England, France, Wales and Ireland - that's just over 2 per country. So having '1 or 2' players would actually be fair. The fact is we do have top notch international players, we've all seen what they're capable of when at the top of their game. BOD, Ferris, Kearney, Sexton, SOB, Best, Healy would all be holding their hands up for a world 15.

The fact of the matter is we don't utilize these talents to their best potential. Simple as.

finatron

.ak wrote: »

You just contradicted yourself in one post. H-Cup is pretty close to test level, but no one is saying it is the same as test level. It's as close as you'll get in my opinion.

. BOD, Ferris, Kearney, Sexton, SOB, Best, Healy would all be holding their hands up for a world 15.

The fact of the matter is we don't utilize these talents to their best potential. Simple as.

dont think i really contradicted myself. leinster have a team of made up of good test players(plus there 2 beast player this year where Torn and Nacewa) and there the best team in the Hcup by a mile but these players are not at the same level as the all blacks .

as for bod, ferris, kearney, sexton, sob ,best, and healy, defo put there hands up a lions team but not world 15 .
Bod, Kearney, Sexton,SOB, where all out played yesterday healy and best matched there opposite ,

as for not utilising are talented players maybe there just not has good as we think they are . They look great in Hcup against weaker teams and Irish rugby fans think we can match New Zealand !

thomond2006

Healy, Best, Ross, Ryan, Tuohy, SOB, Henry, Heaslip;
Reddan, Sexton, Zebo, Cave, BOD, Trimble, Kearney

Bench: Cronin, Loughney, McCarthy, POM, Marshall, ROG, McFadden

I don't think Murray was as bad as people made out, but I'd like to see Marshall make an appearance. Cave to come in as a straight swap, if Earls can do a job at 12 then Cave should be fine.

Tuohy deserves another chance to step up after a non showing in the 1st test, however in POM's case there is a good/better alternative in Henry. SOB tbf was great at 7 so perhaps Henry could slot in at 6.

danthefan

thomond2006 wrote: »

Healy, Best, Ross, Ryan, Tuohy, SOB, Henry, Heaslip;
Reddan, Sexton, Zebo, Cave, BOD, Trimble, Kearney

Bench: Cronin, Loughney, McCarthy, POM, Marshall, ROG, McFadden

I don't think Murray was as bad as people made out, but I'd like to see Marshall make an appearance. Cave to come in as a straight swap, if Earls can do a job at 12 then Cave should be fine.

Tuohy deserves another chance to step up after a non showing in the 1st test, however in POM's case there is a good/better alternative in Henry. SOB tbf was great at 7 so perhaps Henry could slot in at 6.

I'd pick that exact side too.

Tox56

finatron wrote: »

.ak wrote: »

You just contradicted yourself in one post. H-Cup is pretty close to test level, but no one is saying it is the same as test level. It's as close as you'll get in my opinion.

. BOD, Ferris, Kearney, Sexton, SOB, Best, Healy would all be holding their hands up for a world 15.

The fact of the matter is we don't utilize these talents to their best potential. Simple as.

dont think i really contradicted myself. leinster have a team of made up of good test players(plus there 2 beast player this year where Torn and Nacewa) and there the best team in the Hcup by a mile but these players are not at the same level as the all blacks .

as for bod, ferris, kearney, sexton, sob ,best, and healy, defo put there hands up a lions team but not world 15 .
Bod, Kearney, Sexton,SOB, where all out played yesterday healy and best matched there opposite ,

as for not utilising are talented players maybe there just not has good as we think they are . They look great in Hcup against weaker teams and Irish rugby fans think we can match New Zealand !

The patronising tone isn't helping your argument, but I don't think we are as good as New Zealand, I think we are a helluva lot better than we have been performing recently

.ak

finatron wrote: »

dont think i really contradicted myself. leinster have a team of made up of good test players(plus there 2 beast player this year where Torn and Nacewa) and there the best team in the Hcup by a mile but these players are not at the same level as the all blacks .

as for bod, ferris, kearney, sexton, sob ,best, and healy, defo put there hands up a lions team but not world 15 .
Bod, Kearney, Sexton,SOB, where all out played yesterday healy and best matched there opposite ,

as for not utilising are talented players maybe there just not has good as we think they are . They look great in Hcup against weaker teams and Irish rugby fans think we can match New Zealand !

Who said we can match NZ?

I think the players are as good as we think they are. They look good in H-Cup against BETTER teams also. It obvious that Ireland are playing far below their potential. As I said, with our current crop of players, if we were utilized correctly I'd put us at 5th in the rankings. As it stands we're a deserved 8th.

As for SOB being outplayed you obviously didn't watch the match.

finatron

Tox56 wrote: »

The patronising tone isn't helping your argument, but I don't think we are as good as New Zealand, I think we are a helluva lot better than we have been performing recently

I,m not Patronising anyone I,m pionting out a reason why we got hammerd yesterday, to have a really good team you need really good players .We where missing are 3 best players but i still think we would have lost with them in the team .
I,m tired of the argument that Hcups success should bring us on par with the best teams in the world , sure it cant do us any harm been great at the Hcup, but who are the best players in the Irish teams mostly Kiwis and South Africans.
Until we get all 4 Irish teams playing good successful rugby with 95% irish players we will stay an average test team.

I would agree we should be better than the way we performing recently and change in management is called for, but a new coach would face the same problems when playing the SH teams are the Irish players good enough?

Fishooks12

finatron wrote: »

I,m not Patronising anyone I,m pionting out a reason why we got hammerd yesterday, to have a really good team you need really good players .We where missing are 3 best players but i still think we would have lost with them in the team .
I,m tired of the argument that Hcups success should bring us on par with the best teams in the world , sure it cant do us any harm been great at the Hcup, but who are the best players in the Irish teams mostly Kiwis and South Africans.
Until we get all 4 Irish teams playing good successful rugby with 95% irish players we will stay an average test team.

I would agree we should be better than the way we performing recently and change in management is called for, but a new coach would face the same problems when playing the SH teams are the Irish players good enough?

A reader of Hugh I see

finatron

.ak wrote: »

Who said we can match NZ?

I think the players are as good as we think they are. They look good in H-Cup against BETTER teams also. It obvious that Ireland are playing far below their potential. As I said, with our current crop of players, if we were utilized correctly I'd put us at 5th in the rankings. As it stands we're a deserved 8th.

As for SOB being outplayed you obviously didn't watch the match.

No i watch the match SOB was good one of the best Irish players but McCaw was better

finatron

Fishooks12 wrote: »

A reader of Hugh I see

not looked at the paper yet . I really do belive having ex all blacks and Boks playing in ireland is killing us when it comes to the Irish team

.ak

finatron wrote: »

but who are the best players in the Irish teams mostly Kiwis and South Africans.

I'm calling shenanigans. That's completely incorrect. Who, in the Leinster starting lineout, is from NZ or SA that you would call the best in their position? Let's have a look. I've bolded the players better imo.

1: Healy vs HdVM.
2. Strauss or Cronin.
3. Ross or White.
4. Cullen or N/A
5. Brown or Thorn
6. MCLaughlin or N/A
7. SOB or N/A
8. Heaslip or Auva'a
9. Reddan or N/A
11. Fitzgerald or N/A
12. D'Arcy or N/A
13. BOD or N/A
14. Nacewa or D.Kearney
15. R. Kearney or N/A

So, of that list, all of our NIQ are second string players, with the exception of Strauss (IQ this autumn, but I'll concede), Thorn (loan deal, we'll have all Irish locks next season), and Nacewa. Well, Nacewa is fantastic, but like every one of our players has an off day.

The point I'm making here is there is absolutely no reason when a team is coached correctly that Irish players can't go toe to toe with SH teams like Aus, SA or NZ. Leinster are a team that are made up pretty much entirely Irish players, and yet they smash teams full of kiwi's, SA and Aus players every week. Now adays there's so little between professional athletes it boils down to game plan.

To suggest otherwise is simply lording them up onto some invisible pedestal. The Australians, French and the SA teams don't fear the ABs. Why? It's not because they're better - sure look how bad France were in the WC, but that they go into their games with a decent gameplan and respect for the opposition.

We looked shellshocked against NZ, but because of bad tactical calls and defensive systems, not because our players weren't up for it.

.ak

finatron wrote: »

No i watch the match SOB was good one of the best Irish players but McCaw was better

You're having a laugh. MCCaw was average at best, far below his usual self. SOB out played him in every facet. Our best player by a country mile.

leonard7

a h-cup winner vesus super 15 winner match would be more useful in comparing the two sides than using just the h-cup...literally been dreaming of said match for years now and it would show us how well ireland really should be performing against other top nations...if they beat the chiefs or crusaders for example there should be no reason why ireland should be losing by 32 points

GerM

finatron wrote: »

No i watch the match SOB was good one of the best Irish players but McCaw was better

Entitled to your opinion but even his own media, who worship the ground he walks on, said he was off his game making errors and was solid at best.

Otacon

finatron wrote: »

not looked at the paper yet . I really do belive having ex all blacks and Boks playing in ireland is killing us when it comes to the Irish team

Do you not think the presence of Nacewa has helped Kearney and McFadden develop? How about Elsom's presence and its effect on SOB? Or Howlett on Earls and Zebo?

totallegend

I don't know about the rest of you, but I am only fNcking delighted that Fitzpatrick is going to be fit for next weekend. If Tony Buckley got on that plane, I honestly think I'd have to throw my hat at this rugby lark.

finatron

Otacon wrote: »

Do you not think the presence of Nacewa has helped Kearney and McFadden develop? How about Elsom's presence and its effect on SOB? Or Howlett on Earls and Zebo?

Ya thats a fair point players will learn from these guys but look at are tight head problem we have now and to lesser degree 2 row and center

finatron

GerM wrote: »

Entitled to your opinion but even his own media, who worship the ground he walks on, said he was off his game making errors and was solid at best.

The Irish times gave McCaw 8 and SOB 7 so as you say where all entitiled to are opinion

.ak

finatron wrote: »

The Irish times gave McCaw 8 and SOB 7 so as you say where all entitiled to are opinion

I wouldn't bother with the times player assessment - they're often comical and have no bearing on what the journo actually writes.