Ireland Tour to New Zealand 2012 Discussion thread

Fishooks12

We really should hand out bans for anyone posting links to the NZ Herald, what a rag

thomond2006

Duffy's time has passed, Kearney Jr could cover 15, as can Gilroy.

Swiwi

Fishooks12 wrote: »

We really should hand out bans for anyone posting links to the NZ Herald, what a rag

ok fine fishhook, if ye want Kiwis to f-off, I will leave you to wallow in debating your meaningless replacements for the second test, where defeat by less than 25 points would represent a victory for Ireland...

Some of the stuff Farrelly & Thornley write is hardly vintage either.

On the other hand, if you are happy to engage in reasoned debate, I am up for it. Because I have been living in Ireland for 6 years now, I try and keep an open mind about irish rugby, and judge your players across all competitions...whereas most NZers only see Irish players when they play the ABs and recent results have hardly been flattering.

GerM

Swiwi wrote: »

As a Kiwi (living in Eire), I would seriously consider Ferris for an All Black starting team at 6. SOB could be useful on the bench. I would like to see how Bowe would go in Super Rugby, he's no worse than Guildford (who I would replace with Ben Smith or Hosea Gear for this week). Would be interested in Irish comments on this article:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/chris-rattue/news/article.cfm?a_id=22&objectid=10811780&ref=rss

Interesting picks. Bowe wouldn't be in it for me. He lacks top end pace overall. He had about 2 great years in his career but the rest hasn't been at the same level. He's a good international winger overall but certainly wouldn't be in the greatest Irish side ever for me. Simon Geoghegan was destroyed by injury and part of arguably the worst Irish side ever but still lit up the field when he was on.

Michael Bradley is a real indication of how weak we are at 9. I just about remember him. Physical but slow. Wouldn't stand a chance if he was around today.

Ferris would be in the NZ side right now, I think, if he was fully fit. Vito is a good player but he's not Kaino or Collins at his best. Ferris has a dynamic abrasiveness that is rare in a player. Absolute wrecking ball that is capable of matching the mobility of many centres.

Tox56

Swiwi wrote: »

Fishooks12 wrote: »

We really should hand out bans for anyone posting links to the NZ Herald, what a rag

ok fine fishhook, if ye want Kiwis to f-off, I will leave you to wallow in debating your meaningless replacements for the second test, where defeat by less than 25 points would represent a victory for Ireland...

Some of the stuff Farrelly & Thornley write is hardly vintage either.

On the other hand, if you are happy to engage in reasoned debate, I am up for it. Because I have been living in Ireland for 6 years now, I try and keep an open mind about irish rugby, and judge your players across all competitions...whereas most NZers only see Irish players when they play the ABs and recent results have hardly been flattering.

He was insulting the paper not you, Farrelly and Thornley are rubbish at the moment too

Swiwi

GerM wrote: »

Interesting picks. Bowe wouldn't be in it for me. He lacks top end pace overall. He had about 2 great years in his career but the rest hasn't been at the same level. He's a good international winger overall but certainly wouldn't be in the greatest Irish side ever for me. Simon Geoghegan was destroyed by injury and part of arguably the worst Irish side ever but still lit up the field when he was on.

Michael Bradley is a real indication of how weak we are at 9. I just about remember him. Physical but slow. Wouldn't stand a chance if he was around today.

Ferris would be in the NZ side right now, I think, if he was fully fit. Vito is a good player but he's not Kaino or Collins at his best. Ferris has a dynamic abrasiveness that is rare in a player. Absolute wrecking ball that is capable of matching the mobility of many centres.

I agree, I think Ferris is top-class and a better replacement for Kaino than Vito or the athletic but under-powered Thomson. I expect he will be a star for the Lions, fitness permitting.

Fishooks12

Swiwi wrote: »

ok fine fishhook, if ye want Kiwis to f-off, I will leave you to wallow in debating your meaningless replacements for the second test, where defeat by less than 25 points would represent a victory for Ireland...

Some of the stuff Farrelly & Thornley write is hardly vintage either.

On the other hand, if you are happy to engage in reasoned debate, I am up for it. Because I have been living in Ireland for 6 years now, I try and keep an open mind about irish rugby, and judge your players across all competitions...whereas most NZers only see Irish players when they play the ABs and recent results have hardly been flattering.

Are you working for the NZ Herald or something? It's a rag. Stop being so precious

Swiwi

Tox56 wrote: »

He was insulting the paper not you, Farrelly and Thornley are rubbish at the moment too

Yeah Rattue writes provocative but often ****e articles. He was on a real band-wagon last year about Deans v Henry...unfortunately for him, Deans has a fairly appalling record with Australia, with about 55% success, 2 wins out of 14 or such v NZ (one of which was the game in HK gifted by Stephen Donald), and losses to Samoa, Scotland, Ireland, England.

GerM

Swiwi wrote: »

I agree, I think Ferris is top-class and a better replacement for Kaino than Vito or the athletic but under-powered Thomson. I expect he will be a star for the Lions, fitness permitting.

That's the issue. Ferris is only fit for literally about 10-15 games a season at this point. He might play in more but, as was the case with the semi final and final of the HEC, he was not fully fit and it showed in his performance. A Lions tour comes at the end of a long season and involves several matches on harder Australian pitches in a short space of time. Very good chance he'll struggle for fitness again based on how things have gone over the past 3 years. He's 27 with less than 100 appearances for Ulster in 7 seasons.

2009 - Injured. Misses Lions test series.
2010 - Injured. Missed Irish summer tour.
2011 - No summer tests due to upcoming WC.
2012 - Injured. Misses Irish summer tour.

Just can't last a season.

GerM

With Duffy flying out, one would have to wonder if Earls is gone for the rest of the tour. Are they flying him out to sit on the bench for one game? In case of emergency, there are others out there who have played 15 before and could do so if they had to if RK shipped an injury in the middle of a game. Trimble, D'Arcy and even Sexton have played 15 before. Far from ideal situation but it does make me wonder about the severity of Earls injury.

Fishooks12

Christ. I just wish this tour was over now. Depressing that we have 2 tests to go against a full strength AB's with half a squad

errlloyd

Swiwi wrote: »

Yeah Rattue writes provocative but often ****e articles. He was on a real band-wagon last year about Deans v Henry...unfortunately for him, Deans has a fairly appalling record with Australia, with about 55% success, 2 wins out of 14 or such v NZ (one of which was the game in HK gifted by Stephen Donald), and losses to Samoa, Scotland, Ireland, England.

To be fair to NZ journos this wasn't a terrible article, I think we just get riled up by what seem like pointless little digs, for instance -

but O'Connell is too good to leave out despite being in the thick of the 2005 Lions tour flop.

Why when writing two sentences about one of Ireland's greatest players do they find it necessary to remind people that the the Lions lost their tour in 2005, despite the fact it really had little to do with POC?

In other news, I generally agree with the selections, though I'd also agree that Geoghan was a bit of a magician!

ambid

Swiwi wrote: »

Yeah Rattue writes provocative but often ****e articles. He was on a real band-wagon last year about Deans v Henry...unfortunately for him, Deans has a fairly appalling record with Australia, with about 55% success, 2 wins out of 14 or such v NZ (one of which was the game in HK gifted by Stephen Donald), and losses to Samoa, Scotland, Ireland, England.

Interesting insight on that article and author. I read it this morning and thought it was graceless. Every decent fan respects New Zealand's brilliance in rugby, but the conceit in that article is unnecessary. Regardless of whether his team wins or loses, the journo should behave with some dignity and offer some basic respect to his opponents.

I love when new posters join this forum so sorry for criticising your first (but hopefully not your last) contribution.

Swiwi

ambid wrote: »

Interesting insight on that article and author. I read it this morning and thought it was graceless. Every decent fan respects New Zealand's brilliance in rugby, but the conceit in that article is unnecessary. Regardless of whether his team wins or loses, the journo should behave with some dignity and offer some basic respect to his opponents.

I love when new posters join this forum so sorry for criticising your first (but hopefully not your last) contribution.

Rattue gets on the bad side of many of his readers...which is what makes him successful I guess. Try asking any NZer what they think of Stephen Jones from the Times. I can reassure that his conceit is not Irish-directed, this is just how he writes.

Anyway, back to rugby matters. I think Kidney or whoever succeeds him (hopefully Schmidt & O'Shea) should set their eyes on 2015, and start looking to the future. Your under 20 side has just recorded a fantastic win v SA in SA which is never easy. Much like Hansen has identified Retallick, Sam Cane, Tawera Kerr-Barlow etc for NZ, there must be some of these players who should begin to get looked at. I totally agree with those saying there was no point bringing O'Gara and other players who are the worse side of 30 down to NZ, and would have given players such as Gilroy and Madigan the experience. Likewise, I see no point in giving Darcy the 12 shirt for this weekend, I haven't seen much of him play, but I believe cave may be decent enough. Kidney should identify players such as Sexton, Kearney & SOB who can make 2015, and then start looking for younger players to fill the gaps.

Swiwi

errlloyd wrote: »

To be fair to NZ journos this wasn't a terrible article, I think we just get riled up by what seem like pointless little digs, for instance -



Why when writing two sentences about one of Ireland's greatest players do they find it necessary to remind people that the the Lions lost their tour in 2005, despite the fact it really had little to do with POC?

In other news, I generally agree with the selections, though I'd also agree that Geoghan was a bit of a magician!

Agree that it had nothing to do with POC...more to do with Sir Clive recycling ageing English players from 2003. Aside from Carter's magic, was a bit of a dull Lions series, and as a Kiwi I was embarrassed that Mealamu & Umaga got off scot-free, don't think that would happen nowadays.

ambid

Swiwi wrote: »

...Anyway, back to rugby matters. I think Kidney or whoever succeeds him (hopefully Schmidt & O'Shea) should set their eyes on 2015, and start looking to the future. Your under 20 side has just recorded a fantastic win v SA in SA which is never easy. Much like Hansen has identified Retallick, Sam Cane, Tawera Kerr-Barlow etc for NZ, there must be some of these players who should begin to get looked at...

If you've been here 6 years you're one of us now! Time to start referring to them as "our under 20 side"

You're right about developing talent though. We have a small playing population so talent development is crucial. It's a real shame we have only just appointed a national scrum development coach. Matt Williams recently wrote about how NZ national coaches coordinate playing strategy across their Super Rugby sides who feed that through other levels n the pyramid, and contrasted how Irish national and provincial coaches have no shared strategy.

Coordinated talent development and a clear Irish playing strategy across national and provincial levels seem crucial, and I wonder if we're doing all we can to deliver.

Swiwi

ambid wrote: »

If you've been here 6 years you're one of us now! Time to start referring to them as "our under 20 side"

You're right about developing talent though. We have a small playing population so talent development is crucial. It's a real shame we have only just appointed a national scrum development coach. Matt Williams recently wrote about how NZ national coaches coordinate playing strategy across their Super Rugby sides who feed that through other levels n the pyramid, and contrasted how Irish national and provincial coaches have no shared strategy.

Coordinated talent development and a clear Irish playing strategy across national and provincial levels seem crucial, and I wonder if we're doing all we can to deliver.

In fairness, the default sport here is GAA, and I believe (in Dublin at least) that rugby is more a sport of the private schools, whereas of course in NZ rugby is the default sport, and is played across all demographics. NZ also has a lot of players of Maori & Pacific Island heritage (virtually all of whom ARE born in NZ), and that clearly helps. I would like to see a few more Irish players having a year of so in the S15, much like what Haskell has just done with the Highlanders.

Klunk_NZ

Chris does these digs. You should try being a blues fan right now. You would hate Chris more then being an Irish fan.

What do you think of this slagg off article?
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/chris-rattue/news/article.cfm?a_id=22&objectid=10812123

Duffy as FB cover I can understand.

If we wanted a centre / FB hasn't that been part of Paddy Wallace's gig for the past few years?

Likely not to see much/any of him anyway. Issues with squad size, which as always it seems, was pointed out here weeks ago, already rearing it's head. Is there nobody in the IRFU that can see more than a week ahead? Foresight might be difficult, but it sure as **** isn't impossible.

Why so many blazers? NZRU said they'd host what, 45 people?

JustinDee

Klunk_NZ wrote: »

Chris does these digs. You should try being a blues fan right now. You would hate Chris more then being an Irish fan.

What do you think of this slagg off article?
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/chris-rattue/news/article.cfm?a_id=22&objectid=10812123

Rattue is a "tut".
The usual blinkered claptrap. More of the same when the Four Nations or whatever its being calledm, begins.

Klunk_NZ

Wynne Grey and Sean Fitzpatrick are my usual reads. Neither of them hide the fact that AB's are the best but they don't drift into unrelated taunts like Rattue.

GerM

Deleted User wrote: »

Why so many blazers? NZRU said they'd host what, 45 people?

Wouldn't be sure there are many blazers out there. Support staff is huge for a tour. Between coaches, physios, masseurs, logistics etc., there are 17 staff listed in the coaching section on Irish Rugby's site. I think the IRFU should have been a bit smarter and just taken the hit on an additional 3 or 4 players though. As we've said, it was always going to come back to bite us. End of a long season, 3 matches against the best in the world plus one other against the Barbarians, injuries were a guarantee.

JonnyF

Where is Deccie going picking Gavin Duffy as a replacement and having Tony Buckley on stand by?

At this stage we have to accept we're not going to turn BNZ over so let's just have a go at blooding some guys who are on the bubble and see if they've got what it takes.

The dogs in the street know that Duffy and Buckley aren't up to test level, really don't see the point in bringing them. When you add that Strings or TOL were on standby if there was a scrumhalf injury it's enough to make you give up altogether.

Fishooks12

JonnyF wrote: »

Where is Deccie going picking Gavin Duffy as a replacement and having Tony Buckley on stand by?

At this stage we have to accept we're not going to turn BNZ over so let's just have a go at blooding some guys who are on the bubble and see if they've got what it takes.

The dogs in the street know that Duffy and Buckley aren't up to test level, really don't see the point in bringing them. When you add that Strings or TOL were on standby if there was a scrumhalf injury it's enough to make you give up altogether.

I'd agree, but in the case of Buckley I really can't see the benefit of bringing guys who aren't ready for HC level yet. Plus he's only on stand by

The Duffy call up baffles me. Why not Dave Kearney? Or even Andrew Conway

irishbucsfan

Or Niall Morris

fitz

Anyone read Kidney's comments in Hugh Farrelly's piece from today's Indo?
Talk about finger-pointing at anyone but yourself...
The guy is delusional.

Tox56

fitz wrote: »

Anyone read Kidney's comments in Hugh Farrelly's piece from today's Indo?
Talk about finger-pointing at anyone but yourself...
The guy is delusional.

Someone in the comment section picked this up in an article by Tony Ward..

What purpose was possibly served in calling Jonny Sexton ashore with 20 minutes to go? That decision smacks of a coach not fully at ease with his initial call.

Is the suggestion there ROG should have started or..? :eek:

maddragon

Kidney is going to set Irish rugby back 20 years to the bad old days of the 90s. Give new blood a chance. Jesus why not bring back Nick Popplewell and the Claw while you're at it Deccy. I think in an era of professionalism it is a disgrace that one team of full time players could be beaten by over 30 points on a regular basis. Yes the ABs are world champions and clearly a stronger side but we were lucky not to lose by 50 and England did the same to us in March. We beat them well last year. Where is our consistency. Management and coaching problem.

maddragon

Tox56 wrote: »

Someone in the comment section picked this up in an article by Tony Ward..



Is the suggestion there ROG should have started or..? :eek:

The suggestion is that Ward thinks Kidney thinks ROG should have started. TBH, ROG shouldn't even be there at all but if Deccy persists in playing Murray, maybe ROG should start instead of this insane mixing of the provincial half back pairings.

I nearly cry now everyone I see Kidney.

sim777

What I can't understand is why didnt Kidney prepare for this outcome during the Six Nations. I mean, after the draw against France he and the players admitted that the title was out of their grasp. So why didnt he use the remaning matches with Scot and Eng to bring on some fresh players to give them a couple of caps- Zebo, Gilroy, O'Malley, Fitzpatrick, etc. It wouldnt have been pretty but at least theyd have a couple of tests in a green jersey and would prepare them a bit better for the tour to NZ.