Ireland Tour to New Zealand 2012 Discussion thread

leftleg

Well at least the general public is with us and has faith in Kidneys tactics.:(

CatFromHue

The HEC final is on 19th May which is 3 weeks away from the first test against NZ. Alot of the Ulster guys won't have played a game in the 3 weeks previous to it. ROG last played a full game against Ulster in the HEC QF I think.

The backs are:
Paul Marshall, Conor Murray
Ronan O'Gara
Paddy Wallace, Darren Cave, Nevin Spence,
Keith Earls, Craig Gilroy, Andrew Trimble, Simon Zebo
AN Other

I'd expect the backs to line out as:

Murray, ROG, Earls, Wallace, Cave, Trimble, AN Other.

The forwards are:
Rory Best, Mike Sherry
Tom Court
Declan Fitzpatrick, Ronan Loughney
Donncha O'Callaghan, Donnacha Ryan, Dan Tuohy
Stephen Ferris, Chris Henry, John Muldoon
Peter O'Mahony
AN Other

So I'd expect them to line out as:

Court, Best, Loughney, Ryan, Tuohy, Henry, Ferris, and POM.

I can see a lot of subs being made at halftime instead of the 55-60 mins mark.

.ak

leftleg wrote: »

Well at least the general public is with us and has faith in Kidneys tactics.:(

I'm surprised the green one isn't at the top tbh... Anyone who thinks this'll be a close series is seriously delusional.

Fishooks12

.ak wrote: »

I'm surprised the green one isn't at the top tbh... Anyone who thinks this'll be a close series is seriously delusional.

I can't see us getting hammered tbh, our defense is one thing that's solid under Kidney (bar a few hiccups)

I think we'll win a test too, but under better management we should be realistically targeting an upset over the series

.ak

Fishooks12 wrote: »

I can't see us getting hammered tbh, our defense is one thing that's solid under Kidney (bar a few hiccups)

I think we'll win a test too, but under better management we should be realistically targeting an upset over the series

Teams can get hammered without conceding points. I very much imagine the ABs will be in firm control of all three games and we will be made look like an average pro12 team bar a few 'spirited' moments.

Fishooks12

.ak wrote: »

Teams can get hammered without conceding points. I very much imagine the ABs will be in firm control of all three games and we will be made look like an average pro12 team bar a few 'spirited' moments.

Ah I thought you meant we'd be beaten by 20 points in each game

I'd agree with you though, we'll probably be competitive for 1 and a half games

I just hope Kidney has the sense not to roll out the likes of Ferris and BOD for the 3 games

CatFromHue

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Ah I thought you meant we'd be beaten by 20 points in each game

I'd agree with you though, we'll probably be competitive for 1 and a half games

I just hope Kidney has the sense not to roll out the likes of Ferris and BOD for the 3 games

Nov 2010 Ire 18 38 NZ
Jun 2010 NZ 66 28 Ire
Nov 2008 Ire 3 22 NZ
Jun 2008 NZ 21 11 Ire

They've beaten us by around 20 points in our last three games against them. It's not unrealistic to expect the same to be honest.

jacothelad

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Murrays inclusion probably stems from out lack of quality at nine but presuming Marshall is the only one that could keep him out of the squad it's hard to argue that he's done enough either

And plus I wouldn't have a 32 year old Boss in the squad either

Yes, Marshall wouldn't be my pick for Ireland but I think that Reddan, Boss and even O'Leary when he plays properly are considerably more effective than Murray. I have no doubt that Conor will get better but right now I think he isn't there in terms of decision making. I think I read somewhere that he is a decent goal kicker. I hope he continues practising it. It is a great weapon to have in your armoury.

shuffol

Murrays got a lot of good attributes, I think he could really do with a season learning the ropes of the position benching behind a top class scrumhalf, he's been essentially thrown into the first team from day one. Hopefully a quality backs coach at Munster next season will make a big difference. Lets not forget the total transformation in Reddans game since Schmidt arrived at Leinster, he's gone from the slowest scrumhalf in the country in terms of service to the quickest.

Podge_irl

Murray has the physical attribute to be a good scrum half but watching him now versus when he broke into the Munster team and the contrast is stark - and not in a good way.

profitius

I think the new backs coach in Munster could be a big help to Murray. Hes gone backwards this season after a good start. It seems like bad habits are being coached into him. Munsters attacking play has also been a shambles which doesn't help.

Fishooks12

Podge_irl wrote: »

Murray has the physical attribute to be a good scrum half but watching him now versus when he broke into the Munster team and the contrast is stark - and not in a good way.

Ya, it's clear the added pressure of being thrust into the Irish team has done him more harm than good

Fireball07

I still retain hope for Murray, it's obvious he has a lot of talent and as of now, I think he could reach a level beyond any of our other scrum-halves. But he's got a lot of bad habits he has to cut out.

The most annoying one is his tendency to take his eye off the ball at the base of the ruck, fumble it, and knock it on. It led to conceding a try in a HC quarter-final and it happens way too much for an international scrum-half (or any scrum-half tbh). Then there's the taking too long to get the pass away, a slowness in getting to rucks and at other times getting unnecessarily involved in protecting the ruck.

That's a lot of issues but they are ones that can be solved. His actual skill levels are very high. He's big and strong, excellent in defence. He's quick, and he's got the eye for a break. And the quality of his passing is the best in the country imo. It's crisp and very accurate.

Flincher

I think if we don't win the first test, we won't win any. NZ are going to be relatively disjointed in the first, with their players coming straight from Super Rugby. At least our lads will have had a couple of weeks in camp together.

They haven't played together since the World Cup, and now with a different coaching team, I think our best chance to beat them is to catch them cold in the first test. They are only going to get better after that.

bilston

So I'm trying to figure out the squad to go to NZ. 24 players have been named for the Barbarians but if fit we can probably add Healy, Cronin (rumours about him no longer being an option aside), Ross, Cullen, Toner, Heaslip, O'Brien, McLaughlin, Jennings, Ryan, Ruddock, Reddan, Boss, Sexton, Madigan, McFadden, D'Arcy, O'Driscoll, Kearney and D.Kearney to be genuine contenders. That's 20 players from Leinster which gives us 44 in total. So we'll probably have to remove 14-16 players from that I'd have thought.

So assuming those are the 44 in contention that leaves the breakdown as follows:

PROPS
Cian Healy
Tom Court
Declan Fitzptarick
Ronan Loughney
Mike Ross

HOOKERS
Rory Best
Mike Sherry
Sean Cronin

SECOND ROWS
Donnacha Ryan
Donacha O'Callaghan
Dan Tuohy
Leo Cullen
Devin Toner

BACK ROWS
Stephen Ferris
John Muldoon
Chris Henry
Peter O'Mahony
Sean O'Brien
Jamie Heaslip
Dominic Ryan
Rhys Ruddock
Kevin McLaughlin
Shane Jennings

SCRUM HALFS
Conor Murray
Paul Marshall
Eoin Reddan
Isaac Boss

OUT HALFS
Ronan O'Gara
Jonathan Sexton
Ian Madigan

CENTRES/WINGS/FULL BACKS
Paddy Wallace
Darren Cave
Nevin Spence
Keith Earls
Gordon D'Arcy
Fergus McFadden
Brian O'Driscoll
Andrew Trimble
Craig Gilroy
Simon Zebo
Rob Kearney
David Kearney

The highlighted players would be certainties for the tour IMO and that leaves anything up to 11 places up for grabs. We may yet end up with a fairly fresh squad for NZ.

CatFromHue

I'd have POM and McFadden as certainties as they were in the 6 Nations squads.

I think Wallace will cover the third choice out half position too. I don't see the benefit to either Madigan or Keatley in travelling to NZ. The players who go on international tours in June are slow to come back at the start of the next season. Both of these players would benefit more from starting next season as opposed to maybe getting 10 mins at the end of the last test.

twinytwo

CatFromHue wrote: »

I'd have POM and McFadden as certainties as they were in the 6 Nations squads.

I think Wallace will cover the third choice out half position too. I don't see the benefit to either Madigan or Keatley in travelling to NZ. The players who go on international tours in June are slow to come back at the start of the next season. Both of these players would benefit more from starting next season as opposed to maybe getting 10 mins at the end of the last test.

there wouldnt be benefit if kidney would play them, but we all know he wont

twinytwo

Flincher wrote: »

I think if we don't win the first test, we won't win any. NZ are going to be relatively disjointed in the first, with their players coming straight from Super Rugby. At least our lads will have had a couple of weeks in camp together.

They haven't played together since the World Cup, and now with a different coaching team, I think our best chance to beat them is to catch them cold in the first test. They are only going to get better after that.

For this to happen... heally and ross needs to last the game, seton and reddan need to start and the rest of the team have to kill everything in a black shirt to the point where when that final whistle goes, they cant walk the pitch unaided.*

* and the ref will need to have the balls to bin richie.

CatFromHue

twinytwo wrote: »

there wouldnt be benefit if kidney would play them, but we all know he wont

Well for the team or the player is there much benefit to getting 20 mins against the All Blacks?

It must be stated that while a win in NZ won't guarantee a top 8 finish in the rankings at the end of the year it certainly makes it far more difficult for the teams below us to catch or overcome us (we'd be over 5 full points ahead of the 9th placed team).

While it may be a flight of fancy but winning two games puts us in an excellent chance of getting into the top 4 at the end of the year (we'd have 83.85 points which would puts us into 4th place in the table now) and winning all the games would all but guarantee a top 3 finish.

leonard7

anyone know any allblacks that owe them a favour then?

PhatPiggins

CatFromHue wrote: »

Well for the team or the player is there much benefit to getting 20 mins against the All Blacks?
.

Yes because 20 minutes at that level is worth more then starting every pool game in the HC. Regardless of how much game time they get they benefit from just being in the squad.

CatFromHue

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Yes because 20 minutes at that level is worth more then starting every pool game in the HC. Regardless of how much game time they get they benefit from just being in the squad.

I dunno really. Do you think the 43 mins Dan Tuohy got against the All Blacks in 2010 was as beneficial to him as all the HEC games he played in 2011?

Rhys Ruddock might be a better example in that he got called up on that same tour and played some of the end of the game against Australia. By the time he got back playing for Leinster Dom Ryan had over taken him and had built up some good form whereas Ruddock was just getting into it.

No doubt it's great for self esteem and that to be called up but if you're just going to be holding tackle bags the whole time it could be tough going too.

WeeBushy

CatFromHue wrote: »

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Yes because 20 minutes at that level is worth more then starting every pool game in the HC. Regardless of how much game time they get they benefit from just being in the squad.

I dunno really. Do you think the 43 mins Dan Tuohy got against the All Blacks in 2010 was as beneficial to him as all the HEC games he played in 2011?

Rhys Ruddock might be a better example in that he got called up on that same tour and played some of the end of the game against Australia. By the time he got back playing for Leinster Dom Ryan had over taken him and had built up some good form whereas Ruddock was just getting into it.

No doubt it's great for self esteem and that to be called up but if you're just going to be holding tackle bags the whole time it could be tough going too.

If they are played with the view of integrating them into the team, then yes. If its a one off cap like Ruddock, then probably not.

CatFromHue

WeeBushy wrote: »

If they are played with the view of integrating them into the team, then yes. If its a one off cap like Ruddock, then probably not.

Yeah that's what I'm trying to get at. If Keatley or Madigan were to go on tour they'd end up the 23rd man in a 22 man squad. They could be that man at home. Assuming no injuries that is.

Podge_irl

Its a valid concern. If they toured but never saw any gametime and were still precluded from playing in the opening rounds of the ML then it would be a massive downside to them going. I think some sub appearances against the ABs would benefit them. Though I think the overriding feeling is more that a sub appearance for one of them would show the management is somewhat aware of them and not just focused on Sexton/ROG.

RoundBox11

Anyone know of any good All Blacks forums? I found a good one years ago but can't remember what it was called.

Just interested to see how little they are rating us for this tour :P

Donklan Kidney

http://www.espnscrum.com/ireland/rugby/story/164124.html

Donklan Kidney wrote:

"The game against the Baa-Ba's is vital for us in our preparations for the tour as it gives some players the chance to gain match fitness if they have not played for a couple of weeks, allows us to further expose some players to the national set up and also gives us the opportunity to get some foundations in place for the test series," Kidney said. "We have a good majority of our selections decided on for the tour party at this point, but the Heineken final gives us possibly one last opportunity to watch players in what will be a massive occasion for Irish Rugby."

fitz

Deleted User wrote: »

http://www.espnscrum.com/ireland/rugby/story/164124.html

Seriously though...why is anyone still surprised by him any more?
Just accept that he's not going to change his spots and tough it out until he's gone.

fitz

fitz wrote: »

Seriously though...why is anyone still surprised by him any more?
Just accept that he's not going to change his spots and tough it out until he's gone.

the thing that really gets me is that if he was basing the "We have a lot of players picked already" on the performances of the players throughout this season, then I could understand that.

But it's not. He's going to pick "his guys" to play "his game" and "keep it tight" and "try to not make mistakes".

It's a slap in the face to guys like Tuohy, Gilroy, O'Halloran and Cave that they've played far far above the levels of players that are in "Declan's camp", and will probably continue to do so for coming seasons, but can't get a look in.

fitz

Deleted User wrote: »

the thing that really gets me is that if he was basing the "We have a lot of players picked already" on the performances of the players throughout this season, then I could understand that.

But it's not. He's going to pick "his guys" to play "his game" and "keep it tight" and "try to not make mistakes".

It's a slap in the face to guys like Tuohy, Gilroy, O'Halloran and Cave that they've played far far above the levels of players that are in "Declan's camp", and will probably continue to do so for coming seasons, but can't get a look in.

I 100% agree, it's a incredibly negative way to treat players, but in fairness, we've been making these criticisms of him for more than 2 years now. I came to the conclusion a while ago that there's no point getting wound up about it any more, cause it's clearly not going to change. We're stuck with him, and we just have to put up with his incompetence and hope the next appointment is a good one.