Ireland Tour to New Zealand 2012 Discussion thread

sydthebeat

weather seems to be for settle dry day in christchurch on saturday

im fearful for another 30-40 heavy defeat.

bilston

sydthebeat wrote: »

weather seems to be for settle dry day in christchurch on saturday

im fearful for another 30-40 heavy defeat.

I'm fearful you're being optimistic!

What about picking the Leinster team and then just filling in the gaps

15 Kearney
14 McFadden
13 O'Driscoll
12 D'Arcy
11 Trimble
10 Sexton
9 Reddan
1 Healy
2 Cronin
3 Ross
4 Tuohy
5 Ryan
6 McLaughlin
7 O'Brien
8 Heaslip

They aren't all the best individuals (McFadden, D'Arcy, McLaughlin and Cronin to name but a few) but as a team it may work better as they could play the Leinster way. We'd still lose but we might actually give NZ more of a game.

liammur

bilston wrote: »

I'm fearful you're being optimistic!

What about picking the Leinster team and then just filling in the gaps

15 Kearney
14 McFadden
13 O'Driscoll
12 D'Arcy
11 Trimble
10 Sexton
9 Reddan
1 Healy
2 Cronin
3 Ross
4 Tuohy
5 Ryan
6 McLaughlin
7 O'Brien
8 Heaslip

They aren't all the best individuals (McFadden, D'Arcy, McLaughlin and Cronin to name but a few) but as a team it may work better as they could play the Leinster way. We'd still lose but we might actually give NZ more of a game.

I doubt it judging by defeats to the ospreys. The sight of black puts the fear into boys in green, regardless of who is or isn't playing.

Best has to start.

I like Cronin, but Best has just been on another planet for the past 15 months.

Fishooks12

Deleted User wrote: »

Best has to start.

I like Cronin, but Best has just been on another planet for the past 15 months.

I'd nearly give Cronin a start for the sake of rotation though

Not like we're going to win or anything!

Fishooks12

Fishooks12 wrote: »

I'd nearly give Cronin a start for the sake of rotation though

Not like we're going to win or anything!

50/30 50/30 for the remaining two games.

One starts one benches. Flip the coin!

bamboozle

changes i'd make

Reddan at 9
Trimble at 14
McFadden/Darcy at 12
BOD to 13

i'd give POM and Touhy starts but at the same time i'd like to see the leinster backrow and half backs starting, Mclaughlin as i keep harping on has to be the most underrated irish player this season.

thomond2006

McFadden doesn't deserve to start at centre when you have Cave in the squad.

bilston

Deleted User wrote: »

Best has to start.

I like Cronin, but Best has just been on another planet for the past 15 months.

And of course Rory will start but I'm just exploring the idea of playing a team which is very comfortable in its own skin.

Didn't Gatland pick 13 Ospreys players in his first team selection for Wales? I think they actually beat Australia with the team as well.

bamboozle

thomond2006 wrote: »

McFadden doesn't deserve to start at centre when you have Cave in the squad.

Cave's a 13, we need a 12 at 12 and BOD in his best position marshalling the outside defensive channels.

Fishooks12

bamboozle wrote: »

Cave's a 13, we need a 12 at 12 and BOD in his best position marshalling the outside defensive channels.

Cave can play 12 too.

I really don't think McFadden is up to International rugby. He probably deserves a start at 12 to stake his claim in his preferred position but not ahead of Cave

decisions

Would like to see Cave start this weekend.

bamboozle

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Cave can play 12 too.

I really don't think McFadden is up to International rugby. He probably deserves a start at 12 to stake his claim in his preferred position but not ahead of Cave

i dont recall Cave ever playing 12 but stand corrected.

JRant

Fishooks12 wrote: »

bamboozle wrote: »

Cave's a 13, we need a 12 at 12 and BOD in his best position marshalling the outside defensive channels.

Cave can play 12 too.

I really don't think McFadden is up to International rugby. He probably deserves a start at 12 to stake his claim in his preferred position but not ahead of Cave

To be honest very few players on our team look International standard under DK at the moment. He has possibly the best 6 & 7 in European rugby with ball in hand and he wouldn't know how to use them if it crawled outta his arse. He also has the best 10 in the NH looking like an AiL player, hell even BOD looks very ordinary under him. It's very easy to say this lad isn't good enough or that lad shouldn't of started etc but the crux of the matter is we are being terrible coached.

Fishooks12

JRant wrote: »

To be honest very few players on our team look International standard under DK at the moment. He has possibly the best 6 & 7 in European rugby with ball in hand and he wouldn't know how to use them if it crawled outta his arse. He also has the best 10 in the NH looking like an AiL player, hell even BOD looks very ordinary under him. It's very easy to say this lad isn't good enough or that lad shouldn't of started etc but the crux of the matter is we are being terrible coached.

I agree Kidney is making players back but I also think you're exaggerating a tad! Sexton looking like an AIL player for example! He was brilliant during the six nations.

It's easy to see that Murray isn't up to the standard requires to be a good international, same applies to McFadden IMO.

Cpt_Blackbeard

JRant wrote: »

To be honest very few players on our team look International standard under DK at the moment. He has possibly the best 6 & 7 in European rugby with ball in hand and he wouldn't know how to use them if it crawled outta his arse. He also has the best 10 in the NH looking like an AiL player, hell even BOD looks very ordinary under him. It's very easy to say this lad isn't good enough or that lad shouldn't of started etc but the crux of the matter is we are being terrible coached.

At the end of the day, that's just excuse making. There are players there that, regardless of the coaching setup, should be able to make an impact at this level. The fact of the matter is that players aren't stepping up to the plate at international level. Every problem cannot be lumped on the coach - he's not the one missing tackles and spurning chances.

irishbucsfan

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

JRant wrote: »

To be honest very few players on our team look International standard under DK at the moment. He has possibly the best 6 & 7 in European rugby with ball in hand and he wouldn't know how to use them if it crawled outta his arse. He also has the best 10 in the NH looking like an AiL player, hell even BOD looks very ordinary under him. It's very easy to say this lad isn't good enough or that lad shouldn't of started etc but the crux of the matter is we are being terrible coached.

At the end of the day, that's just excuse making. There are players there that, regardless of the coaching setup, should be able to make an impact at this level. The fact of the matter is that players aren't stepping up to the plate at international level. Every problem cannot be lumped on the coach - he's not the one missing tackles and spurning chances.

Or is THAT excuse making?

Probably depends where you're from.

Otacon

It should depend on where the issues are arising, which in this case, is both in the gameplan and player accuracy [tackles, handling errors etc.] So both the players and the management have to shoulder some of the blame.

Now let's hope they worked on both for Saturday.

Fishooks12

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Or is THAT excuse making?

Probably depends where you're from.

Watching McFadden and Murray for their provinces I could tell you they weren't what I'd have near our International 15

leftleg

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

The fact of the matter is that players aren't stepping up to the plate at international level.

Which players??

snow mad

leftleg wrote: »

Which players??

I dont think very many of the players are playing at the same level as they play for there provinces it maybe the tactics or just maybe that they are not happy with the current set up but there is something amis.
:mad:

bamboozle

snow mad wrote: »

I dont think very many of the players are playing at the same level as they play for there provinces it maybe the tactics or just maybe that they are not happy with the current set up but there is something amis.
:mad:

its pretty clear, the team being selected, the tactics (or lack thereof) chosen, the combinations within the team are not conducive to ensuring the players are playing to the standards we know they are capable of.

blame lies firmly with management.

molloyjh

snow mad wrote: »

leftleg wrote: »

Which players??

I dont think very many of the players are playing at the same level as they play for there provinces it maybe the tactics or just maybe that they are not happy with the current set up but there is something amis.
:mad:

I think at this stage it would be naive to think that at least some of the players aren't disillusioned with the whole set-up. As a group they know they are better than they have been. Whether they blame themselves or the coaches becomes irrelevant if/when that doubt creeps in. And I think it has for some of them anyway. The whole thing needs a good shake up.

snow mad

molloyjh wrote: »

I think at this stage it would be naive to think that at least some of the players aren't disillusioned with the whole set-up. As a group they know they are better than they have been. Whether they blame themselves or the coaches becomes irrelevant if/when that doubt creeps in. And I think it has for some of them anyway. The whole thing needs a good shake up.

I personally dont think the Irfu are willing to shake anything up will we even see a large nunber of players taken into a training camp after the AI's i really dont think so

Cpt_Blackbeard

leftleg wrote: »

Which players??

Healy, Best, Fitzpatrick (he did what was expected), Ryan, SOB and Earls had pretty good games. Every other player should be looking for massive improvement the next time they put on an Irish jersey. Some of the inexperienced lads - Tuohy, POM and Zebo - should be given some leeway as they are still adjusting to this level of rugby. The rest of the starters need to up their game. Simples!

irishbucsfan

It's the coaches job to get the most out of his players. That's the bottom line really. Rather than saying the players SHOULD be playing better, the question should be why aren't they.

I think that interview where Sexton talked about Kidneys possession based philosophy really underlined where a lot of these players are having problems.

Things are only going to get worse when there are 3 kiwi coaches coaching our players next season.

profitius

Its way too early to be writing off Murray as an international. He hasn't been coached by a decent backs coach yet.

Swiwi

Swiwi wrote: »

NZ media reporting Nonu picked ahead of SBW for 2nd test...

Well, that journalist got it wrong...official team released, SBW remains at 2nd-five/inside centre, with thomson to start at 6, and the young promising sam cane on the bench. I realise this is more a forum for Irish team tactics & selections, but from a NZ point of view I hope Cane gets a run at 7, and McCaw at 6. I believe McFadden is one of the fastest Irish backs, but McCaw did a good impression of a prop chasing after him on saturday. In saying that, stats showed he topped the AB stats for arriving first at the breakdown etc...

CatFromHue

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It's the coaches job to get the most out of his players. That's the bottom line really. Rather than saying the players SHOULD be playing better, the question should be why aren't they.

I think that interview where Sexton talked about Kidneys possession based philosophy really underlined where a lot of these players are having problems.

Things are only going to get worse when there are 3 kiwi coaches coaching our players next season.

For me it's not as clear cut as that. Players have to take responsibility for their actions too.

Take Rob Kearney for example. He is by far the best full back we have available but he is caught out in defence too regularly for my liking. For Savea's second try he was faced in a one on one with him (he actually had Murray covering inside him so it wasn't a complete one on one). Savea went over far far too easily in that situation. Not only did Kearney tackle too high but he led with the wrong shoulder. Kearney didn't cover himself in glory for Savea's third try either.

These in my opinion were both individual errors from one of our better players. The coaching staff can't do a whole lot about that.

Kidney would get ripped to shreds if he dropped Kearney and the team could would be weakened to some degree without him in it.

I agree about our style of play with you though.

thomond2006

New Zealand:
15 Israel Dagg, 14 Zac Guildford, 13 Conrad Smith, 12 Sonny Bill Williams, 11 Julian Savea, 10 Dan Carter, 9 Aaron Smith,
8 Kieran Read, 7 Richie McCaw (c), 6 Adam Thomson, 5 Sam Whitelock, 4 Brodie Retallick, 3 Owen Franks, 2 Andrew Hore, 1 Tony Woodcock.

Replacements: 16 Hika Elliot, 17 Ben Franks, 18 Ali Williams, 19 Sam Cane, 20 Piri Weepu, 21 Aaron Cruden, 22 Ben Smith.

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,16024_7811003,00.html

Thomson in for the injured Vito, Sam Cane onto bench. Otherwise no change.