Ireland Tour to New Zealand 2012 Discussion thread

leftleg

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0614/1224317876505.html

Kidney has thus retained Dan Tuohy, a relatively subdued performer in the first Test, on the basis that he is a better player than he showed in Eden Park, Conor Murray (whose service certainly needs to sharpen up) and Fergus McFadden, who also had a difficult night defensively, and whose direct counterpart, Julian Savea, scored a hat-trick on his debut.

GT is mad as hell and hes not going to take it anymore!!

JRant

leftleg wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0614/1224317876505.html

Kidney has thus retained Dan Tuohy, a relatively subdued performer in the first Test, on the basis that he is a better player than he showed in Eden Park, Conor Murray (whose service certainly needs to sharpen up) and Fergus McFadden, who also had a difficult night defensively, and whose direct counterpart, Julian Savea, scored a hat-trick on his debut.

GT is mad as hell and hes not going to take it anymore!!

I nearly fell off the chair when I read him this morning, definite whiff of criticism in the article, only a slight whiff but enough to take notice of. I wonder if it has anything to do with GT being way off the mark with the team selection last week? Or maybe the worm has turned. As EOS found out, once the hounds get a sniff of blood they can't be stopped!!

Tox56

I don't think so, GT explains the selection of Murray, Tuohy and McFadden by saying they will now be familiar with the AB's speed and tempo.

Yet this is contradicted in a way with POM and Zebo both dropped with similarly average performances to the 3 mentioned above.

It's not a 'Munster bias' problem, it just appears certain logic does not apply to everyone.

Though neither Zebo nor McFadden covered themselves in glory last week (which was predictable to say the least);

I'd prefer to have McFadden as our bench option with Zebo playing 11 and Trimble at 14.

Or else one of them start and Duffy cover the bench.

Zebo is a specialist winger. Paddy Wallace was a 'versatile' option under DK for years and spent many 80minute periods sitting it out in case of injury.

It seems to be the case that there is literally no middle ground with him.

irishbucsfan

It is certainly interesting that Thornleys first critical article comes after his first missed selection!

Stev_o

Trimble gives us a better chance of winning then Zebo and Locky is there for being a semi natural 6 rather then POM who isn't. It's a good team but i worry about creativity.

Clearlier

Fishooks12 wrote: »

He was on the field of play for less than 7 minutes. How you can come to that conclusion after that is beyond me

Ok, I was a bit harsh but here's his 7 minutes:

held back Conrad Smith - lucky not to get yellow carded
knock on - actually this was a good play, he made a good defensive decision disrupting a New Zealand move and in the act of tackling knocked the ball on. The kind of intervention that Earls utterly failed to make all night.
helped win turnover - I don't know that he made any difference but he was trying to do the right thing
bad, bad defensive error for final NZ try
tackle you would have expected him to make followed by a good line to prevent a pass

Tox56

Clearlier wrote: »

Fishooks12 wrote: »

He was on the field of play for less than 7 minutes. How you can come to that conclusion after that is beyond me

Ok, I was a bit harsh but here's his 7 minutes:

held back Conrad Smith - lucky not to get yellow carded
knock on - actually this was a good play, he made a good defensive decision disrupting a New Zealand move and in the act of tackling knocked the ball on. The kind of intervention that Earls utterly failed to make all night.
helped win turnover - I don't know that he made any difference but he was trying to do the right thing
bad, bad defensive error for final NZ try
tackle you would have expected him to make followed by a good line to prevent a pass

The most important part of that post is the 7 MINUTES!! He may or may not be international standard, but you can't judge either way from 7 minutes of rugby! It begs the question why he was only given 7 minutes but that's another argument

twinytwo

Stev_o wrote: »

Trimble gives us a better chance of winning then Zebo and Locky is there for being a semi natural 6 rather then POM who isn't. It's a good team but i worry about creativity.

i cant see how???..... the ABS will just run everything down on mcfadden again.

leftleg

Clearlier wrote: »

Ok, I was a bit harsh but here's his 7 minutes:

held back Conrad Smith - lucky not to get yellow carded
knock on - actually this was a good play, he made a good defensive decision disrupting a New Zealand move and in the act of tackling knocked the ball on. The kind of intervention that Earls utterly failed to make all night.
helped win turnover - I don't know that he made any difference but he was trying to do the right thing
bad, bad defensive error for final NZ try
tackle you would have expected him to make followed by a good line to prevent a pass

Jeez thats a busy first 7 minutes against the all blacks in Eden Park; fair play to him i say; we need more of that kind of work in every position

bilston

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Fitzpatrick on the bench is another poor call.

Not if there is a doubt over Ross.

Fishooks12

bilston wrote: »

Not if there is a doubt over Ross.

And what happens if Healy has to go off again?

bilston

Given the scars of last week, it's surprising McFadden was the one retained, or failing that, that he isn't swapping wings.
"We could (switch), but left wing and right are two totally different positions," said Kidney, "so if you're exposed on the right you're definitely going to be exposed on the left."

This bit from Deccie is hilarious.

In other words Ferg was completely exposed on the right wing so if he moved him to the left he'd be buttf**ked to death by the ABs.

bilston

Clearlier wrote: »

Ok, I was a bit harsh but here's his 7 minutes:

held back Conrad Smith - lucky not to get yellow carded
knock on - actually this was a good play, he made a good defensive decision disrupting a New Zealand move and in the act of tackling knocked the ball on. The kind of intervention that Earls utterly failed to make all night.
helped win turnover - I don't know that he made any difference but he was trying to do the right thing
bad, bad defensive error for final NZ try
tackle you would have expected him to make followed by a good line to prevent a pass

He held back Smith, sometimes you get away with it sometimes you don't. Zebo did the same thing earlier in the game, lot's of players do it.

He was certainly partially to blame for Smith's try but he wasn't alone either.

He also picked a nice line on the AB line outside ROG but ROG put a grubber to nothing through instead. It was his first 7 minutes of test rugby (apart from a couple of caps against the USA), I remember Stringer and O'Gara's first 20 minutes against Scotland back in 2000...dreadful stuff...they did okay in the end...

bilston

Fishooks12 wrote: »

And what happens if Healy has to go off again?

And what happens if Ross has to go off? Fitzpatrick has played LH for Ulster anyway, although only a couple of times.

Who can cover both sides? For all the talk of Loughney doing well when he came on last week the scrum was definitely a lot weaker in the in the 30 mins after Fitzpatrick went off, although in the same way as I'd defend Cave for 7 mins of rugby I'll happily defend Loughney for his cameo as well and say he deserves another go.

shuffol

"Redser":pac:

Bet Reddan's in the background thinking "stop calling me Redser you prick, we're not friends"

I wonder will we see the usual ROG for D'arcy switch after 60 mins. Bigger pack this week so hopefully we get some joy in the scrums. How many good performances does Murray owe us at this stage. I fear we wont be seeing any of Marshall on this tour.

JRant

Anyone know a good place showing the game in Rathdrum?

Brian_Zeluz

Since reading this article I have waited in vain for it to finally happen, to see an Ireland team made up of at least 10 Leinster players.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/neil-francis-leinsters-way-or-the-highway-for-kidneys-empty-strategy-3119794.html

Now that we have ten Leinster players starting has Kidney finally copped on? No of course not this is DK after all. McFadden is still in the wrong place (should be 12), Zebo has been dropped, Touhy hasn't been dropped (for McCarthy). But worst of all Murray is still starting, how can the national team ever expect to play anything like Leinster without quick ball to Sexton?
I don't know about the rest of you but at this stage I'd be happy to see Lievremont in charge, at least he'd give caps to new lads and play the on form players.

Fishooks12

Brian_Zeluz wrote: »

Since reading this article I have waited in vain for it to finally happen, to see an Ireland team made up of at least 10 Leinster players.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/neil-francis-leinsters-way-or-the-highway-for-kidneys-empty-strategy-3119794.html

Now that we have ten Leinster players starting has Kidney finally copped on? No of course not this is DK after all. McFadden is still in the wrong place (should be 12), Zebo has been dropped, Touhy hasn't been dropped (for McCarthy). But worst of all Murray is still starting, how can the national team ever expect to play anything like Leinster without quick ball to Sexton?
I don't know about the rest of you but at this stage I'd be happy to see Lievremont in charge, at least he'd give caps to new lads and play the on form players.

We're Ireland not Leinster. We should be able to play a good brand of rugby made up of the best players from every province. Granted a good fist of them are going to be from Leinster

I hope the Lievremont bit was a joke too!

liammur

I saw this in the Indo today, and unfortunately I must agree with it. Whilst we are definitely good in terms of northern hemi rugby, we're leagues behind the AB's.

Kiwis 'sold short' by poor Irish visitors
LEGENDARY former All Blacks second-row Andy Haden is the latest to get stuck into Ireland.
"One of the reasons the Irish haven't beaten the All Blacks in 107 years is because they don't actually believe they can," said Haden on a popular sports panel show yesterday. "We are sold short with these sort of teams turning up here, it's not good enough."
"We need to have good contests down here and the reason why Eden Park was not sold out is because the opposition is not rated. We don't figure that they (the Irish) are up to it."

Brian_Zeluz

Fishooks12 wrote: »

We're Ireland not Leinster. We should be able to play a good brand of rugby made up of the best players from every province. Granted a good fist of them are going to be from Leinster

I hope the Lievremont bit was a joke too!

Should is the key word there. The unfortunate truth is whatever brand that's being played now isn't working, that is of course if there even is a definitive brand or plan even... Anyway my point was what we have now isn't working, what Leinster have is working and so why not give it a shot, sure it can't be any worse than what DK is at at the moment. Which brings me to Lievremont, that was no joke for the same reason, he can't be any worse.

liammur

Brian_Zeluz wrote: »

Should is the key word there. The unfortunate truth is whatever brand that's being played now isn't working, that is of course if there even is a definitive brand or plan even... Anyway my point was what we have now isn't working, what Leinster have is working and so why not give it a shot, sure it can't be any worse than what DK is at at the moment. Which brings me to Lievremont, that was no joke for the same reason, he can't be any worse.

Kidney was able to do well at H Cup level. The step up is massive. Now I rate Schmidt very highly and would love to see him get the Irish job but Schmidt would also flop adly with the Irish team v AB's

Fishooks12

liammur wrote: »

Kidney was able to do well at H Cup level. The step up is massive. Now I rate Schmidt very highly and would love to see him get the Irish job but Schmidt would also flop adly with the Irish team v AB's

Kidney's style suited the game pre ELV's. He was a good coach then but his failure to adapt has turned him into a bad one

And how can you say Schmidt would flop? All signs point to him playing a more modern game and picking the right players for the job. If Schmidt had this Irish team we'd at least be competitive over the 3 tests and probably sneak one IMO

JustinDee

liammur wrote: »

I saw this in the Indo today, and unfortunately I must agree with it. Whilst we are definitely good in terms of northern hemi rugby, we're leagues behind the AB's.

Kiwis 'sold short' by poor Irish visitors
LEGENDARY former All Blacks second-row Andy Haden is the latest to get stuck into Ireland.
"One of the reasons the Irish haven't beaten the All Blacks in 107 years is because they don't actually believe they can," said Haden on a popular sports panel show yesterday. "We are sold short with these sort of teams turning up here, it's not good enough."
"We need to have good contests down here and the reason why Eden Park was not sold out is because the opposition is not rated. We don't figure that they (the Irish) are up to it."

Someone nowhere near the camp or players telling everyone else how the level of motivation is . . .
I'm sure his generalising suppositioning on market forces amongst the New Zealand sporting audience is spot on. Everyone is flush and there's a massive history of packed houses for every test there.
Thanks Mr Haden. Great stuff.

molloyjh

Tight five is as expected. I just hope Healy really is fit. Don't want to see him getting flogged. Delighted for Locky as he's worked hard this season, but personally would have picked Henry at 7 and SOB at 6.

Murray at SH is just the wrong decision. For all Captains bemoaning the blame game even he admits it himself. People reckon his passing hasn't been slow but if you watch the speed he puts on the ball it actually is pretty slow. And you don't pick your SH primarily for defensive reasons.

Darce was always going to be 12 once Earls was injured. What's most frustrating about this is that the Earls at 12 move was obviously to give him more experience at 13 so that he can take over from BOD but we've absolutely no replacement for Darce long-term, or even short-term. It's plainly ridiculous as BOD is still worth his place, but Darce is, for all the respect I have for the guy, not anymore. Yet we have no other real options at 12. The only possible candidate for the shirt on the tour is being exposed on the wing.

Speaking of which Ferg is a lucky guy to still be there. And he'll be targeted again this weekend. He's suffered the utility back curse at Leinster which has really hampered him over the last 2 seasons IMO. If he'd been able to focus on a single position we might have seen more from him at both provincial and national level. I'd said before I thought Zebo was worth another look as we didn't really learn anything about him last week.

As for the bench, Fitzpatrick will be hoping that Healy lasts until after he's come on for Ross. And our lack of real FB cover is a bit worrying. It's not a great bench at all. I can't see us even staying close this weekend....

As for the Kiwi comments earlier, it was obviously a bit of light-hearted humour. No biggie. I laughed anyway. It's always good to have someone from the other side of the fence contributing to these discussions too...

fitz

liammur wrote: »

Kidney was able to do well at H Cup level. The step up is massive. Now I rate Schmidt very highly and would love to see him get the Irish job but Schmidt would also flop adly with the Irish team v AB's

Don't believe this for a second tbh.
Kidney did well provincially when he had a monstrous pack and an in form ROG, during a period when the laws of the game perfectly suited the gameplan that used these two things to huge advantage.

The playing field has levelled considerably in terms of aggressive physicality in most teams packs, and the law changes have made the game he had all his success with completely redundant. It's exactly why Ireland have floundered since the laws were changed. The guy doesn't know what to do.

Joe, on the other hand, has shown he knows how to coach players to play the modern game in a very effective way.

It's nothing to do with a "step up" and everything to do with competence or lack of.

liammur

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Kidney's style suited the game pre ELV's. He was a good coach then but his failure to adapt has turned him into a bad one

And how can you say Schmidt would flop? All signs point to him playing a more modern game and picking the right players for the job. If Schmidt had this Irish team we'd at least be competitive over the 3 tests and probably sneak one IMO

He'd flop simply because we don't have the players. This is no reflection on Schmidt of course. Like English football, we tend to think our rugby players are vastly superior to what they actually are.

Fishooks12

fitz wrote: »

Don't believe this for a second tbh.
Kidney did well provincially when he had a monstrous pack and an in form ROG, during a period when the laws of the game perfectly suited the gameplan that used these two things to huge advantage.

The playing field has levelled considerably in terms of aggressive physicality in most teams packs, and the law changes have made the game he had all his success with completely redundant. It's exactly why Ireland have floundered since the laws were changed. The guy doesn't know what to do.

Joe, on the other hand, has shown he knows how to coach players to play the modern game in a very effective way.

It's nothing to do with a "step up" and everything to do with competence or lack of.

this

liammur

fitz wrote: »

Don't believe this for a second tbh.
Kidney did well provincially when he had a monstrous pack and an in form ROG, during a period when the laws of the game perfectly suited the gameplan that used these two things to huge advantage.

The playing field has levelled considerably in terms of aggressive physicality in most teams packs, and the law changes have made the game he had all his success with completely redundant. It's exactly why Ireland have floundered since the laws were changed. The guy doesn't know what to do.

Joe, on the other hand, has shown he knows how to coach players to play the modern game in a very effective way.

It's nothing to do with a "step up" and everything to do with competence or lack of.

Yes, very good contribution. Well done. The only part I would disagree with, but would very strongly disagree with it is: 'It's nothing to do with a "step up"'.
Imo, these are the toughest games these players will ever play in.

Fishooks12

liammur wrote: »

He'd flop simply because we don't have the players. This is no reflection on Schmidt of course. Like English football, we tend to think our rugby players are vastly superior to what they actually are.

Who do you think is overrated so, and why?