Ireland Tour to New Zealand 2012 Discussion thread

fitz

liammur wrote: »

Yes, very good contribution. Well done. The only part I would disagree with, but would very strongly disagree with it is: 'It's nothing to do with a "step up"'.
Imo, these are the toughest games these players will ever play in.

I read your post as a "step up" from provincial coaching to international.
From the players perspective, I'd agree, NZ are as tough as they come in terms of opposition that these guys are going to face.
But the ABs were close to being beaten in a RWC Final by a French team that was clearly in revolt against their own coach.
They're not infallible.

We have the players, imo, to be able to get a least one result on a tour like this, if we played to our potential. After three years watching Kidneyball, it's understandable that you, or others, might no longer see the potential of a squad of players that have been consistently made to look less than they are by the incompetent fumblings of an obtuse dinosaur of a coach that's been completely unable to adapt to the modern game.

liammur

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Who do you think is overrated so, and why?

Put it this way, I wouldn't put 1 Irish player get into that AB team.

Clearlier

bilston wrote: »

He held back Smith, sometimes you get away with it sometimes you don't. Zebo did the same thing earlier in the game, lot's of players do it.

He was certainly partially to blame for Smith's try but he wasn't alone either.

He also picked a nice line on the AB line outside ROG but ROG put a grubber to nothing through instead. It was his first 7 minutes of test rugby (apart from a couple of caps against the USA), I remember Stringer and O'Gara's first 20 minutes against Scotland back in 2000...dreadful stuff...they did okay in the end...

Look, I did say that I think he's international class and that he should be given another chance. I've thought it seen I saw him and Earls play together in the Churchill cup. While Earls has the greater physical attributes Cave is a far more natural outside centre. He was single handedly responsible for Smith's try though. He didn't trust the guy inside him to make the tackle and he went for the wrong guy. He didn't take a great line (it wasn't a bad one but it wasn't doing very much) outside ROG, if he had I think that ROG might have passed it to him (although there's no guarantees there).

I remember BOD's first few caps. Defensive decision making was terrible. I was impressed with how Earls developed during the 6 nations but I thought the first test showed how far he has to come if he wants to be a top class 13. When BOD retires I'd sooner see him at 12 and Cave at 13 but I suspect that there'll be a lot of water under the bridge before BOD retires.

I'm going to stop now because I suspect we all agree that Cave deserves a real go at 13. My original point was trying to understand why he wouldn't have got the opportunity this weekend which may have been badly put. I think that he should have had the opportunity and I hope that he goes on to show what he can do.

liammur

fitz wrote: »

I read your post as a "step up" from provincial coaching to international.
From the players perspective, I'd agree, NZ are as tough as they come in terms of opposition that these guys are going to face.
But the ABs were close to being beaten in a RWC Final by a French team that was clearly in revolt against their own coach.
They're not infallible.

We have the players, imo, to be able to get a least one result on a tour like this, if we played to our potential. After three years watching Kidneyball, it's understandable that you, or others, might no longer see the potential of a squad of players that have been consistently made to look less than they are by the incompetent fumblings of an obtuse dinosaur of a coach that's been completely unable to adapt to the modern game.

But what have we won over the years? 1 grand slam. I'm a huge critic of kidney by the way, but I do believe our players are hugely over rated based primarily on a weak H cup standard at the moment, and even at that, our provinces can target the big games.

Fishooks12

liammur wrote: »

Put it this way, I wouldn't put 1 Irish player get into that AB team.

You're overrating the AB's so and underrating some of our players

I'd have any of our options at 6 ahead of Thompson, even if Kaino were fit I'd pick Ferris. D Ryan, Healy and Best too

BOD is a coin toss with Smith and Kearney is only being held off by Daag being the only 15 in the world that could keep him off a team

SOB outplayed McCaw last week too

fitz

liammur wrote: »

Put it this way, I wouldn't put 1 Irish player get into that AB team.

The front rows aren't far off. Neither are the second rows, and if Ferris wasn't injured, neither would the back rows. Sexton isn't Carter, but I can't think of many guys who'd be in the space between them. Smith v. BOD is as tight as they come, Kearney isn't that far off Dagg.

They might have advantages, and their players might be better in head to heads, but it's the way they play that makes the AB's as dangerous as they are.
It doesn't help us that we pick the wrong guys or put the right guys in the wrong positions, but with a fully fit squad and a good coach, I think we could beat them.

fitz

liammur wrote: »

But what have we won over the years? 1 grand slam. I'm a huge critic of kidney by the way, but I do believe our players are hugely over rated based primarily on a weak H cup standard at the moment, and even at that, our provinces can target the big games.

We haven't won anything because our players are going out and doing what they are told. It's obvious that's what they're doing, because they do things that they wouldn't do for their provinces (witness the amount of ball that gets kicked away by Sexton, and how deep he plays for Ireland compared to Leinster). It just happens that what they're being told to do is play ineffective rugby.

You can't hold the players responsible for not winning when they're just doing what they're told by a coach who'll likely drop them if they don't toe the line. Even if everyone can see (even them, I would contend) that what they're doing doesn't work, what are they supposed to do? Outside of staging a coup, they can't effect the coach, they just have to get on with it.

liammur

fitz wrote: »

The front rows aren't far off. Neither are the second rows, and if Ferris wasn't injured, neither would the back rows. Sexton isn't Carter, but I can't think of many guys who'd be in the space between them. Smith v. BOD is as tight as they come, Kearney isn't that far off Dagg.

They might have advantages, and their players might be better in head to heads, but it's the way they play that makes the AB's as dangerous as they are.
It doesn't help us that we pick the wrong guys or put the right guys in the wrong positions, but with a fully fit squad and a good coach, I think we could beat them.

Fair enough, you are entitled to your opinion, and I think you are probably 1 of the more knowledgeable posters around, I'd put Ferris and maybe O Connell in their team if they were fit. Sexton too is a very good player.

But we blame kidney, we blamed o sullivan, we blamed gatland etc. Can they all be wrong? Maybe the players need to look at themselves as well.

fitz

liammur wrote: »

Fair enough, you are entitled to your opinion, and I think you are probably 1 of the more knowledgeable posters around, I'd put Ferris and maybe O Connell in their team if they were fit. Sexton too is a very good player.

But we blame kidney, we blamed o sullivan, we blamed gatland etc. Can they all be wrong? Maybe the players need to look at themselves as well.

We've correctly blamed Kidney, and correctly blamed O'Sullivan when he made a bags of things. Gatland was very poorly treated, but that was a long time ago at this stage. The professional game has changed and developed considerably since then.

The professional standards of training, preparation and performance of our players is currently not reflected by the standard of the coach in charge.
The players, imo, have been shortchanged by Kidney in a big way.

Fishooks12

liammur wrote: »

Fair enough, you are entitled to your opinion, and I think you are probably 1 of the more knowledgeable posters around, I'd put Ferris and maybe O Connell in their team if they were fit. Sexton too is a very good player.

But we blame kidney, we blamed o sullivan, we blamed gatland etc. Can they all be wrong? Maybe the players need to look at themselves as well.

Ok, you're stating that we overrate our players and that they aren't as good as they think they are, right?

So who exactly are we overrating then? Can you answer that properly and back it up?

Stev_o

Dagg is on another level to Kearney which is no attack on Kearney because Dagg's attacking play from FB is the best Iv seen for a very very long time. He's poses more of a threat with ball in hand then Kearney.

Fishooks12

Stev_o wrote: »

Dagg is on another level to Kearney which is no attack on Kearney because Dagg's attacking play from FB is the best Iv seen for a very very long time. He's poses more of a threat with ball in hand then Kearney.

They're the two best 15's in the world right now

Kearney is far superior under a high ball but Daag is some footballer, reminds me a lot of the 3rd best 15 in the world plying his trade in Dublin.

liammur

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Ok, you're stating that we overrate our players and that they aren't as good as they think they are, right?

So who exactly are we overrating then? Can you answer that properly and back it up?

I didn't say 'that they aren't as good as they think they are', because in fairness I don't know what they think of themselves. I think our squad is on a par with the welsh. I would say the reason the welsh have won more than we have is Gatland is vastly superior to Kidney. But that said, I think the Welsh would also get hammered by the AB's but not embarrassed like we will be.

Stev_o

Fishooks12 wrote: »

They're the two best 15's in the world right now

Kearney is far superior under a high ball but Daag is some footballer, reminds me a lot of the 3rd best 15 in the world plying his trade in Dublin.

Id agree with that. Dagg is just exceptional with ball in hand really does the hard graft popping up everywhere on attack whether it's at 10 or out wide. Must be all that tongue waving.

liammur

fitz wrote: »

We've correctly blamed Kidney, and correctly blamed O'Sullivan when he made a bags of things. Gatland was very poorly treated, but that was a long time ago at this stage. The professional game has changed and developed considerably since then.

The professional standards of training, preparation and performance of our players is currently not reflected by the standard of the coach in charge.
The players, imo, have been shortchanged by Kidney in a big way.

I tend to agree, but I am always a little wary of the coach is always wrong mentality. Not saying that against you now, just in general, be it rugby, hurling, soccer. Probably a bit of both.

dtpc191991

Not a bad team. I have major disagreements with Cave being dropped and Murray starting over Reddan. On the plus side I'm glad that Touhy is being kept on.

I dont agree with this argument that we are over rated, yes man for man the ABS are better. That said I don't think anyone will be able to beat them this season. Not even Aus and SA. We have excellent players which are not playing to their potential because they are forced to play a game plan that is both outdated and against their nature. That said I still believe that even if we were playing to our potential with a full strength team we would struggle against that AB side. What I do feel is that the current England, Wales and Ireland teams playing their potential would be as good as each other. Each would have an equal chance against eachother and all three should be challenging for the tournament. There is no reason that this Ireland team should not have won the grand slam at least once more between 2009 and 2015 . I would also except that Ireland would not win every six nations between now and 2015. What I don't accept is losing to Wales and England because we didn't play to our potential, which has been the case over the last two seasons. The final point is that if we think our players are better than New Zealand then yes we are over rating them. If we think that we are as good or in some cases better than the other Six Nations then we are not over rating the talent we have. The fact that we are not challenging those teams lies not with the players inability to play at this level, but the fact that they are been given an uninspiring, grind wins out by arm wrestling your opponents and kicking for territory, that both goes against these players skill sets and natural way of playing and that does not work in the modern game as defenses are to tight. In the past a kick that may have found touch will more than likely be taken these days by a defender on the touch line. Constant pick and drive will more likely end in an error by the attacking team than a penalty to the attacking team. In short Ireland need a new head coach that is willing to take risks and a backs coach that can get our back line playing the kind of rugby we need to if we are going to compete as we should in the modern game.

liammur

dtpc191991 wrote: »

Not a bad team. I have major disagreements with Cave being dropped and Murray starting over Reddan. On the plus side I'm glad that Touhy is being kept on.

I dont agree with this argument that we are over rated, yes man for man the ABS are better. That said I don't think anyone will be able to beat them this season. Not even Aus and SA. We have excellent players which are not playing to their potential because they are forced to play a game plan that is both outdated and against their nature. That said I still believe that even if we were playing to our potential with a full strength team we would struggle against that AB side. What I do feel is that the current England, Wales and Ireland teams playing their potential would be as good as each other. Each would have an equal chance against eachother and all three should be challenging for the tournament. There is no reason that this Ireland team should not have won the grand slam at least once more between 2009 and 2015 . I would also except that Ireland would not win every six nations between now and 2015. What I don't accept is losing to Wales and England because we didn't play to our potential, which has been the case over the last two seasons. The final point is that if we think our players are better than New Zealand then yes we are over rating them. If we think that we are as good or in some cases better than the other Six Nations then we are not over rating the talent we have. The fact that we are not challenging those teams lies not with the players inability to play at this level, but the fact that they are been given an uninspiring, grind wins out by arm wrestling your opponents and kicking for territory, that both goes against these players skill sets and natural way of playing and that does not work in the modern game as defenses are to tight. In the past a kick that may have found touch will more than likely be taken these days by a defender on the touch line. Constant pick and drive will more likely end in an error by the attacking team than a penalty to the attacking team. In short Ireland need a new head coach that is willing to take risks and a backs coach that can get our back line playing the kind of rugby we need to if we are going to compete as we should in the modern game.

I would agree, but I think many would say that we should be well able to beat england and wales, and probably this is primarily based on H cup performances.

JustinDee

liammur wrote: »

I tend to agree, but I am always a little wary of the coach is always wrong mentality. Not saying that against you now, just in general, be it rugby, hurling, soccer. Probably a bit of both.

In hurling, you just blame the parents.

dtpc191991

liammur wrote: »

I would agree, but I think many would say that we should be well able to beat england and wales, and probably this is primarily based on H cup performances.

I do think we should be able to beat England and Wales. What I'm saying is that, that doesn't mean that we will. As long as we lose playing rugby then that isn't a bad thing. When we win we should win playing rugby.

liammur

dtpc191991 wrote: »

I do think we should be able to beat England and Wales. What I'm saying is that, that doesn't mean that we will. As long as we lose playing rugby then that isn't a bad thing. When we win we should win playing rugby.

I'd make england and wales favs against us at home, and we should be favs against them at home. I see little difference between the 3 teams.

Fishooks12

liammur wrote: »

I'd make england and wales favs against us at home, and we should be favs against them at home. I see little difference between the 3 teams.

That's a pretty simplistic way of looking at things

I think in terms of players and potential squad depth we're on a par with Wales but we've got much better players than England who have a limited squad being coached very well

bilston

liammur wrote: »

I saw this in the Indo today, and unfortunately I must agree with it. Whilst we are definitely good in terms of northern hemi rugby, we're leagues behind the AB's.

Kiwis 'sold short' by poor Irish visitors
LEGENDARY former All Blacks second-row Andy Haden is the latest to get stuck into Ireland.
"One of the reasons the Irish haven't beaten the All Blacks in 107 years is because they don't actually believe they can," said Haden on a popular sports panel show yesterday. "We are sold short with these sort of teams turning up here, it's not good enough."
"We need to have good contests down here and the reason why Eden Park was not sold out is because the opposition is not rated. We don't figure that they (the Irish) are up to it."

The thing is Ireland are well liked in NZ and one of the reasons for that is that we always send our full strength squad down. This time we're suffering injuries of course so aren't as strong as we might be, plus there are questions over the coach etc, but I don't think this guy speaks for that many Kiwis.

Anyway he's said it and can't take it back so use it as motivation lads!

JustinDee

bilston wrote: »

The thing is Ireland are well liked in NZ and one of the reasons for that is that we always send our full strength squad down. This time we're suffering injuries of course so aren't as strong as we might be, plus there are questions over the coach etc, but I don't think this guy speaks for that many Kiwis.

Anyway he's said it and can't take it back so use it as motivation lads!

For motivation, listen to Murray Deaker (or The Prize Cock as he is known in Australia) or read little Chris Rattue.

liammur

bilston wrote: »

The thing is Ireland are well liked in NZ and one of the reasons for that is that we always send our full strength squad down. This time we're suffering injuries of course so aren't as strong as we might be, plus there are questions over the coach etc, but I don't think this guy speaks for that many Kiwis.

Anyway he's said it and can't take it back so use it as motivation lads!

This chap probably likes Ireland as well, but if the other 2 tests go the way of the last 1, well I think he will have been proven right.

Leslie91

I kinda agree with Andy Haden, that we don't truly believe we have a chance of beating them, esp in NZ. But ignoring that for a minute, in my opinion we are not being helped by Kidney's selections. Why has he picked Murray to start again?, why is McFadden retained on the wing?, give me Henry over McL any day (move SOB to 6, Henry at 7). What about giving fringe players who have a chance of making it into our starting 15 a chance?. I haven't missed an Irish game live in years but I'm thinking why bother getting up and out to watch this game.

bilston

liammur wrote: »

This chap probably likes Ireland as well, but if the other 2 tests go the way of the last 1, well I think he will have been proven right.

We're not good enough and yes I suppose we don't believe we can win. Remember ROG's famous utterance a few years ago whewre he said he wanted to be the second best out half in the world after Carter? That is all the prove you need to show that our top players don't believe we can ever be as good as the Kiwis.

However I don't think he's right in saying the NZ public are being sold short. If I got to watch Ireland play like all the time I'd never feel short changed!

thomond2006

Didn't like the tone but he's essentially right, Eden Park wasn't full because Ireland aren't rated. Tbf why should Kiwis rate a team who has never beaten them? Sad but true.

Tox56

thomond2006 wrote: »

Didn't like the tone but he's essentially right, Eden Park wasn't full because Ireland aren't rated. Tbf why should Kiwis rate a team who has never beaten them? Sad but true.

I think that's the case with a lot of NZ writers, arrogant and patronising tone but probably accurate.

heybaby

dtpc191991 wrote: »

Not a bad team. I have major disagreements with Cave being dropped and Murray starting over Reddan. On the plus side I'm glad that Touhy is being kept on.

I dont agree with this argument that we are over rated, yes man for man the ABS are better. That said I don't think anyone will be able to beat them this season. Not even Aus and SA. We have excellent players which are not playing to their potential because they are forced to play a game plan that is both outdated and against their nature. That said I still believe that even if we were playing to our potential with a full strength team we would struggle against that AB side. What I do feel is that the current England, Wales and Ireland teams playing their potential would be as good as each other. Each would have an equal chance against eachother and all three should be challenging for the tournament. There is no reason that this Ireland team should not have won the grand slam at least once more between 2009 and 2015 . I would also except that Ireland would not win every six nations between now and 2015. What I don't accept is losing to Wales and England because we didn't play to our potential, which has been the case over the last two seasons. The final point is that if we think our players are better than New Zealand then yes we are over rating them. If we think that we are as good or in some cases better than the other Six Nations then we are not over rating the talent we have. The fact that we are not challenging those teams lies not with the players inability to play at this level, but the fact that they are been given an uninspiring, grind wins out by arm wrestling your opponents and kicking for territory, that both goes against these players skill sets and natural way of playing and that does not work in the modern game as defenses are to tight. In the past a kick that may have found touch will more than likely be taken these days by a defender on the touch line. Constant pick and drive will more likely end in an error by the attacking team than a penalty to the attacking team. In short Ireland need a new head coach that is willing to take risks and a backs coach that can get our back line playing the kind of rugby we need to if we are going to compete as we should in the modern game.

Yes this pick and drive game makes up far too much of our game and its down to the munster influence. Certainly in portions of the game there will always be a need to deploy pick and drive but not for the majority of the game as is ireland's tendency. Personally Id love to see Joe Schmidt involved in the irish set up at kidneys expense, kidney is way past being yesterdays man, his philosophy on the game and rigid tactics and fear of innovation is strangling our performances and the development of fringe players. I dont see why Schmidt cannot be involved with the national set up, he has tasted success with a good proportion of the irish players at this stage, he knows how to win and do so attractively. Thers nobody else that immediately springs to mind. This summer tour is already dead in the water for us, what can we expect to learn from 3 successive comprehensive hammerings under kidney's guidance at the hands of the world champions? My fear however is that the irfu will simply accept these three defeats as they accepted our poor 6 nations performance and our poor world cup performance and continue with kidney..all the while we are slipping down the rankings while leinster continue their dominance of europe..its quite perverse really..

liammur

bilston wrote: »

We're not good enough and yes I suppose we don't believe we can win. Remember ROG's famous utterance a few years ago whewre he said he wanted to be the second best out half in the world after Carter? That is all the prove you need to show that our top players don't believe we can ever be as good as the Kiwis.

However I don't think he's right in saying the NZ public are being sold short. If I got to watch Ireland play like all the time I'd never feel short changed!

Spot on, a bit like a soccer match, we wouldn't fill the aviva if wales or norway was playing. Not value for money. I was surprised that Eden park wasn't a sellout, it sort of illustrates his point.