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Ireland Tour to New Zealand 2012 Discussion thread

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    #2372
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,762 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    liammur wrote: »
    Fair enough, you are entitled to your opinion, and I think you are probably 1 of the more knowledgeable posters around, I'd put Ferris and maybe O Connell in their team if they were fit. Sexton too is a very good player.

    But we blame kidney, we blamed o sullivan, we blamed gatland etc. Can they all be wrong? Maybe the players need to look at themselves as well.

    After the 2007 6 Nations we were tipping ourselves for at least a SF spot in the RWC, as were plenty of pundits here and abroad. Yes we had issues with Eddies conservative selections at times, but he had us playing some wonderful rugby and seriously competing in the 6 Nations on a regular basis. When it all went to hell we started to blame him. And it seems we were right. He had taken the side as far as he could and something new was needed. Gatland was very harshly treated IMO.

    Deccie has gotten the blame from us when it became clear that he wasn't taking us anywhere. In other words we started getting pissed off with him for the same reasons we did EOS. The only difference being that EOS was quick to leave/get the boot. DK isn't.

    Healy, POC, SOB, Ferris, Sexton, BOD, Kearney and to a lesser extent Bowe and Heaslip are all world class players. We may not have the depth that NZ have, but I reckon we have enough to beat them every now and again. Not consistently or anything, but we should be a lot more competitive than we are given our players.


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    #2373
    Quint2010
    Registered Users Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭Quint2010


    Teferi wrote: »
    I imagine you typing this while sitting in your Munster PJ's, drinking tea out of a mug that resembles Paul O'Connells face. Before you laying back on your Munster pillowcase you'll kiss your signed Ronan O'Gara picture that lays on your bedside table goodnight and as you lay in bed trying to fall asleep instead of counting sheep you count John Hayes.

    BTW, as a Leinster fan and a member of 'the people' I can confirm this is not what I want. The mad selection policy continues. Leinster success in the Heineken Cup is only part of the reason why people aren't happy with our current international standing. It also has something to do with the fact that 3 of our 4 provinces are now getting through to the group stages at minimum. It also has to do with the Grand Slam of 2009. It also has to do with how we now have better players and a greater depth then we ever did have under EOS. So yes, people do expect more. Leinster are only part of that reason so give up your bitter rants. It's makes you seem like a mental.

    I am happy there a so many Leinster players playing. There should be an 11th but anyway... I am hoping and expecting a more cohesive performance as a result.


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    #2374
    CatFromHue
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,157 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    bilston wrote: »
    We're not good enough and yes I suppose we don't believe we can win. Remember ROG's famous utterance a few years ago whewre he said he wanted to be the second best out half in the world after Carter? That is all the prove you need to show that our top players don't believe we can ever be as good as the Kiwis.

    However I don't think he's right in saying the NZ public are being sold short. If I got to watch Ireland play like all the time I'd never feel short changed!

    Once Savea crossed for his first try the game was pretty much over as a contest, it became a case of how much they'll score. He crossed on the 26th min.

    If NZ were looking for three good tough competitive games well yeah then they've been short changed.

    It remains to be seen how we'll get on this weekend but I'm not too hopeful to be honest.

    Our best result since Kidney took over is a 19 point loss. I'm not saying Kidney has anything to do with this but that's were we are at the moment.


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    #2375
    fitz
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 8,122 ✭✭✭fitz


    Quint2010 wrote: »
    I am happy there a so many Leinster players playing. There should be an 11th but anyway... I am hoping and expecting a more cohesive performance as a result.

    I wouldn't get hopes or expectations up.
    Familiarity with each other playing the way Leinster play doesn't mean they'll gel trying to play Kidneyball.

    I can see us being defensively better, but we can't defend our way to a win, and Kidney couldn't buy an attacking game.


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    #2376
    Quint2010
    Registered Users Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭Quint2010


    fitz wrote: »
    I wouldn't get hopes or expectations up.
    Familiarity with each other playing the way Leinster play doesn't mean they'll gel trying to play Kidneyball.

    I can see us being defensively better, but we can't defend our way to a win, and Kidney couldn't buy an attacking game.

    Hopefully we will just see the players ignoring Kidney and calling a few Leinster backline moves..


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    #2377
    Fishooks12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,318 ✭✭✭Fishooks12


    Quint2010 wrote: »
    Hopefully we will just see the players ignoring Kidney and calling a few Leinster backline moves..

    We don't have any Ireland backline moves! Bar the sexton loop!


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    #2378
    JustinDee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    thomond2006 wrote: »
    Didn't like the tone but he's essentially right, Eden Park wasn't full because Ireland aren't rated. Tbf why should Kiwis rate a team who has never beaten them? Sad but true.

    Attendances have not been too shiny in New Zealand over the past 6-7 years for international, super or provincial rugby. People there just don't have the cash demanded of them for a full season of egg-chasing.


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    #2379
    Tox56
    Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    Any backline move we try is painfully slow and utterly predictable, even I can see it coming a mile out and I'm sure the AB's can too.


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    #2380
    Fishooks12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,318 ✭✭✭Fishooks12


    Quint2010 wrote: »
    Hopefully we will just see the players ignoring Kidney and calling a few Leinster backline moves..

    We don't have any Ireland backline moves! Bar the sexton loop!


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    #2381
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    I think Drico tried a few of those Leinster backline moves and look what happened. Offloads going to no where becuase Kidney told the rest of the team to walk, not run...


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    #2382
    fitz
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 8,122 ✭✭✭fitz


    Quint2010 wrote: »
    Hopefully we will just see the players ignoring Kidney and calling a few Leinster backline moves..

    Kidney doesn't strike me as the kind of person to put up with players breaking ranks. I reckon you'd see substitutions if people started doing things they hadn't been told to do, or if not, they'd be on the wrong end of his selection policy for the next game.

    Having said that, he's probably as likely to say they were playing what was in front of them and claim credit, thinking it was something he did that made the difference, so who the f*ck knows at this point.


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    #2383
    Quint2010
    Registered Users Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭Quint2010


    Fishooks12 wrote: »
    We don't have any Ireland backline moves! Bar the sexton loop!
    Fishooks12 wrote: »
    We don't have any Ireland backline moves! Bar the sexton loop!

    OK OK I get it!...:)


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    #2384
    bamboozle
    Registered Users Posts: 3,699 ✭✭✭bamboozle


    Tox56 wrote: »
    Any backline move we try is painfully slow and utterly predictable, even I can see it coming a mile out and I'm sure the AB's can too.

    sexton is sitting far deeper playing 10 for ireland than he does for leinster, most of the backline moves against the AB's last week were done about 5 feet behind our gainline.


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    #2385
    Ardillaun
    Registered Users Posts: 2,558 ✭✭✭Ardillaun


    bilston wrote: »
    I'm fearful you're being optimistic!

    What about picking the Leinster team and then just filling in the gaps


    They aren't all the best individuals (McFadden, D'Arcy, McLaughlin and Cronin to name but a few)

    I agree we should go with Leinster as far as possible and hope the team create their own momentum a la England in the 2007 RWC. But I draw the line at McFadden. He does not deserve another start. Any time Savea got the ball, he scarpered.


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    #2386
    twinytwo
    Registered Users Posts: 5,285 ✭✭✭twinytwo


    iv said it before if they are able to walk off the pitch and clap hands afterwards they obviously dont want the win badly enough to give 100% no matter who the starting 15 are.


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    #2387
    JustinDee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    twinytwo wrote: »
    iv said it before if they are able to walk off the pitch and clap hands afterwards they obviously dont want the win badly enough to give 100% no matter who the starting 15 are.
    Lol :D


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    #2388
    twinytwo
    Registered Users Posts: 5,285 ✭✭✭twinytwo


    JustinDee wrote: »
    Lol :D

    i dunno why you laugh, with the exception of SOB, Healy and Ryan, how many of the players do you actually think gave put in 100%??... If everyone else had followed SOB's lead and tackled everything that moved we would have been in a lot better shape.


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    #2389
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    twinytwo wrote: »
    JustinDee wrote: »
    Lol :D

    i dunno why you laugh, with the exception of SOB, Healy and Ryan, how many of the players do you actually think gave put in 100%??... If everyone else had followed SOB's lead and tackled everything that moved we would have been in a lot better shape.
    Ah come on, their heads may have dropped a little but I can't believe these guys put in anything less than 100% when they pull on that jersey.


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    #2390
    Fishooks12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,318 ✭✭✭Fishooks12


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    Ah come on, their heads may have dropped a little but I can't believe these guys put in anything less than 100% when they pull on that jersey.

    I think there was a lack of intensity from some players rather than a lack of effort.


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    #2391
    trackguy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,246 ✭✭✭trackguy


    twinytwo wrote: »
    iv said it before if they are able to walk off the pitch and clap hands afterwards they obviously dont want the win badly enough to give 100% no matter who the starting 15 are.

    Thanking the fans/ good sportsmanship towards opponents corresponds to not giving 100%?

    Would you prefer if they all stomped off into the dressing room looking really, really cranky and annoyed?


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    #2392
    leftleg
    Registered Users Posts: 1,165 ✭✭✭leftleg


    twinytwo wrote: »
    i dunno why you laugh, with the exception of SOB, Healy and Ryan, how many of the players do you actually think gave put in 100%??... If everyone else had followed SOB's lead and tackled everything that moved we would have been in a lot better shape.

    what absolute tosh; the players all gave there all; the all blacks were on fire and Ireland weren't; passes didn't stick or were dropped and the all blacks took advantage of all of them; Name these players that "couldn't be arsed" if that's what you believe, instead of naming the ones that were "bothered";


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    #2393
    twinytwo
    Registered Users Posts: 5,285 ✭✭✭twinytwo


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    Ah come on, their heads may have dropped a little but I can't believe these guys put in anything less than 100% when they pull on that jersey.

    There are days when i just dont see it

    Sloppy passing, sloppy kicks and sloppy defending summed up our last game.

    They looked to me like a team that didnt think they could win. There was a total lack of intensity. If they wanted to win the game the would hit ever ruck and man until they had nothing left.


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    #2394
    twinytwo
    Registered Users Posts: 5,285 ✭✭✭twinytwo


    trackguy wrote: »
    Thanking the fans/ good sportsmanship towards opponents corresponds to not giving 100%?

    Would you prefer if they all stomped off into the dressing room looking really, really cranky and annoyed?

    you completely miss my point


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    #2395
    Fishooks12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,318 ✭✭✭Fishooks12


    twinytwo wrote: »
    There are days when i just dont see it

    Sloppy passing, sloppy kicks and sloppy defending summed up our last game.

    They looked to me like a team that didnt think they could win. There was a total lack of intensity. If they wanted to win the game the would hit ever ruck and man until they had nothing left.

    There seems to be a bit of a taboo in saying the players could have done a bit more in the way of intensity. There were def moment (Thomspon try) where more concentration and more intensity was needed. I think you have a point to a degree


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    #2396
    matthew8
    Registered Users Posts: 9,599 ✭✭✭matthew8


    I don't blame the players if they're not giving 100%, if I was a player I wouldn't even want to go on this tour.


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    #2397
    Tox56
    Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    twinytwo wrote: »
    iv said it before if they are able to walk off the pitch and clap hands afterwards they obviously dont want the win badly enough to give 100% no matter who the starting 15 are.

    So you want our players to be sore losers to prove how much they want to beat NZ??


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    #2398
    Clearlier
    Registered Users Posts: 4,454 ✭✭✭Clearlier


    Ardillaun wrote: »
    But I draw the line at McFadden. He does not deserve another start. Any time Savea got the ball, he scarpered.

    I'm no great fan of McFadden but that's simply not true.
    twinytwo wrote: »
    There are days when i just dont see it

    Sloppy passing, sloppy kicks and sloppy defending summed up our last game.

    They looked to me like a team that didnt think they could win. There was a total lack of intensity. If they wanted to win the game the would hit ever ruck and man until they had nothing left.

    I think that you need to go back and take another look at the video. New Zealand were beaten down on the ground. Lots of big hits and a few more penetrating carries than you might have thought at first glance. We had two main problem areas in defence. They were the 13 channel where Earls simply wasn't stepping up at the right time and the back 3 being disorganised. The back 3 have been disorganised for quite a while but it's usually hidden by BOD snuffing things out at 13. If there was a lack of intensity towards the end it was because they were out on their feet.

    It's all very well watching a screen and thinking I could have done better than that or why isn't he trying harder. It's quite another things to go out there and do it for 80 minutes.


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    #2399
    leftleg
    Registered Users Posts: 1,165 ✭✭✭leftleg


    Sometimes when a team plays so well and beats you so well you just have to be a man and give them the applause they deserve.


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    #2400
    Teferi
    Registered Users Posts: 6,320 ✭✭✭Teferi


    trackguy wrote: »
    Would you prefer if they all stomped off into the dressing room looking really, really cranky and annoyed?

    We call this move 'the South African'...


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    #2401
    Ardillaun
    Registered Users Posts: 2,558 ✭✭✭Ardillaun


    Clearlier wrote: »
    I'm no great fan of McFadden but that's simply not true.

    I should have said it's not meant to be factually true - I know he thought he had to cover a gap inside - it's just there were times when it almost LOOKED true. (Alesana Tuilagi has a similar tendency and was caught out against Quins).

    More seriously, I don't think McFadden's instincts are really those of a winger. And although his try was well taken, his tackling against large, fast players in the Six Nations and since has been very suspect.

    It's not defeatist to be clear about our chances. We're rearranging the deckchairs on SS Ireland and not much is going to change whatever we do. Hopefully, BOD will be on the same wavelength as his comrades this time and we'll get a chance to score at least one well worked try down the middle. Maybe Ross can exert some pressure at scrum time, who knows? But, please, no more kicking to Dagg's neck of the woods, one of the dumbest strategies in all of sport.


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