Ireland Tour to New Zealand 2012 Discussion thread

liammur

RoundBox11 wrote: »

Well given how important Eoin Reddan is to Leinster it makes perfect sense. The only extra Leinster players playing now that weren't there for the 6N are McLaughlin and McFadden, hardly world beaters.

However, having a leinster back row a leinster outhalf and a leinster centre partnership would greatly benefit the team IF we had a leinster player to link the pack and backs, i.e. Eoin Reddan. Its rediculous not to play Eoin Reddan.

Murray is a better player than people give him credit for, he's by no means a bad player. But that doesn't mean you should automatically have him as first choice. We'd have such a better chance if Eoin Reddan was playing.

It's not that it'll be Murrays fault if we get hammered, its more so a case that if Reddan was playing we would have stood a better chance.

I agree with that. I don't think Reddan is the silver bullet many on here think he is tho.

Tox56

liammur wrote: »

RoundBox11 wrote: »

Oh yeah that measly Clermont team. I mean what Munster team wouldn't have beaten them in France?

Now is not the time for Leinster bashing.

Don't be so silly. I'm praising Leinster. They are a great team. Kidney won H Cups with Munster, bring him back and he'll win again. It's a different level to international. He's not up to the job but it's not all his fault.

That's far too simplistic, as emmet has said several times he last won in 2008, and the game has moved on since then. He's playing 2008 style rugby in 2012. I have no idea how you can proclaim with such confidence that he would win if he came back to the HEC.

liammur

Tox56 wrote: »

I seriously doubt Kidney would have made this Leinster team one of the best there has been in the competition, do you think he would have won last year, given the teams Leinster had to face? Extremely unlikely

Kidney wouldn't have won back to back. He's probably have won 1 league and 1 H Cup. There's no doubt Schmidt is far superior to him. But a like Trap, we don't have the players to be beating the AB's regardless of coach. I'd like to see Schmidt get the Irish job. I rate Kidney highly at provincial level, but only at that level.

liammur

Tox56 wrote: »

That's far too simplistic, as emmet has said several times he last won in 2008, and the game has moved on since then. He's playing 2008 style rugby in 2012. I have no idea how you can proclaim with such confidence that he would win if he came back to the HEC.

The game has moved on? I saw an extremely limited ulster team reach the final. If anything this proves it has gone backwards.

Tox56

liammur wrote: »

Tox56 wrote: »

That's far too simplistic, as emmet has said several times he last won in 2008, and the game has moved on since then. He's playing 2008 style rugby in 2012. I have no idea how you can proclaim with such confidence that he would win if he came back to the HEC.

The game has moved on? I saw an extremely limited ulster team reach the final. If anything this proves it has gone backwards.

What do you mean by limited

mfceiling

liammur wrote: »

Tox56 wrote: »

That's far too simplistic, as emmet has said several times he last won in 2008, and the game has moved on since then. He's playing 2008 style rugby in 2012. I have no idea how you can proclaim with such confidence that he would win if he came back to the HEC.

The game has moved on? I saw an extremely limited ulster team reach the final. If anything this proves it has gone backwards.

I saw that extremely limited Ulster team hammer Leicester and almost beat clermomt in France...

danthefan

liammur wrote: »

Tox56 wrote: »

That's far too simplistic, as emmet has said several times he last won in 2008, and the game has moved on since then. He's playing 2008 style rugby in 2012. I have no idea how you can proclaim with such confidence that he would win if he came back to the HEC.

The game has moved on? I saw an extremely limited ulster team reach the final. If anything this proves it has gone backwards.

What spectacular rubbish. Ulster played some excellent rugby over the course of the season and I'm fairly sure they were the top try scorers in the league too.

liammur

liammur wrote: »

The game has moved on? I saw an extremely limited ulster team reach the final. If anything this proves it has gone backwards.

The rules have changed.

Yes, the game has changed.

liammur

All I'm doing is putting out a different argument to this leinster type rubbish that I'm reading: Pick Leinster and we'll do a job on the AB's. No, we won't, whether it's 10 leinster players or 11, or 15.

Can't even a do a job on the ospreys ffs. Get real folks. We are punching way above our weight in rugby and soccer.

liammur

liammur wrote: »

All I'm doing is putting out a different argument to this leinster type rubbish that I'm reading: Pick Leinster and we'll do a job on the AB's. No, we won't, whether it's 10 leinster players or 11, or 15.

Can't even a do a job on the ospreys ffs. Get real folks. We are punching way above our weight in rugby and soccer.

so so so so so so so wrong

liammur

Deleted User wrote: »

so so so so so so so wrong

No prob. And for the record I will be supporting Ireland to the last regardless of who is playing and who is coaching. I hope I'm proved wrong, but I said anything less than a 60 point accumulative score with the AB's is a success. We can disagree but still hope for the same result.

Quint2010

liammur wrote: »

Don't be so silly. I'm praising Leinster. They are a great team. Kidney won H Cups with Munster, bring him back and he'll win again. It's a different level to international. He's not up to the job but it's not all his fault.

Please don't tell me you seriously think that?..

liammur wrote: »

The game has moved on? I saw an extremely limited ulster team reach the final. If anything this proves it has gone backwards.

Extremely limited? Yet they team they beat in the quarter final (away from home) only needs a misfiring, outdated and under-achieving coach to make them Heinken Cup champions again? Your views simply lack credibility.

fitz

liammur wrote: »

All I'm doing is putting out a different argument to this leinster type rubbish that I'm reading: Pick Leinster and we'll do a job on the AB's. No, we won't, whether it's 10 leinster players or 11, or 15.

Can't even a do a job on the ospreys ffs. Get real folks. We are punching way above our weight in rugby and soccer.

You're right, but not for the reason you're saying.
Just picking Leinster players is not going to turn Kidney's style of rugby into winning rugby. If you took Usain Bolt and told him to sprint backwards, would you then say he's not up to the task when he wasn't winning any more?

Our lack of success at International level has nothing to do with the standard of our players. Not doing the double a week after the HEC final against a fresh Osprey's side when we picked up early injuries in critical areas, along playing 60 minutes of the game with only 14 men....that's hardly something you can use as evidence of us "punching above our weight". There's arguably no team in Europe who could have survived against the Ospreys under those conditions.

It really is this simple: it doesn't make a blind bit of difference who gets selected really, we're still going to see a style of rugby that is no longer effective as long as Kidney remains. The talent and abilities of our players will carry us along against weaker teams, which papers over the cracks. With the players available, we should be consistently competitive against all of the top 4 sides. Not saying we should be winning every game, but we should be performing consistently with the result in the balance right up until the last minutes at worst.

People are calling for the form selections, not the Leinster selections, but realistically, those selections in isolation will only improve things so much.
This team will not play to its potential on a consistent basis under Kidney, even if his team selections were perfect in everyone's eyes.

Until we get a coach who recognises that it's no longer 2008 and that the game is not the same, the players will continue to look like they are underperforming, when really...the team is being completely hobbled by the muppet in charge.

Does this stop me screaming myself hoarse cheering the team on? No.
Does it make me frustrated as bejaysus to see the players potential wasted? Damn straight.

In particular, BOD. It really annoys me that one of the greatest players the sport has ever seen, and without doubt the greatest Ireland has ever produced, has had his achievements curtailed by having the misfortune of being lumbered with inept coaching at international level. The players deserve better, and none more so than O'Driscoll.

profitius

Look at Wales' success in the world cup and 6 nations. Do they have better players? No they don't. Gatland came up with a system to maximise the resources the Welsh have and its working superbly. He got the best out of the Welsh while Kidney did the opposite.

Fishooks12

A manager and coach is even more important in rugby than soccer. It's simply a much more technical game.

liammur

profitius wrote: »

Look at Wales' success in the world cup and 6 nations. Do they have better players? No they don't. Gatland came up with a system to maximise the resources the Welsh have and its working superbly. He got the best out of the Welsh while Kidney did the opposite.

I agree with this 100%, and a lot of what fitz said. But I have absolutely no doubt we overrate our players, a bit like the English media boost their football team so they can conviently knock him when they inevitably flop.

Kidney is poor at international level, but my point is: replacing him won't solve all our problems.
Anyway, thanks for your contribution and enjoy the match folks.

Fishooks12

liammur wrote: »

I agree with this 100%, and a lot of what fitz said. But I have absolutely no doubt we overrate our players, a bit like the English media boost their football team so they can conviently knock him when they inevitably flop.

Kidney is poor at international level, but my point is: replacing him won't solve all our problems.
Anyway, thanks for your contribution and enjoy the match folks.

You've said this a few times now but won't back it up. Who exactly are we overrating and why?

Podge_irl

liammur wrote: »

All I'm doing is putting out a different argument to this leinster type rubbish that I'm reading: Pick Leinster and we'll do a job on the AB's. No, we won't, whether it's 10 leinster players or 11, or 15.

I think Kidney could pick 15 All Blacks and not win. Not least because he'd probably pick Brad Thorn at scrum half for his physicality.

liammur

Fishooks12 wrote: »

You've said this a few times now but won't back it up. Who exactly are we overrating and why?

Our front 3 are average at best, England demolished our scrum.
D Tuohy/ D Ryan - H cup level
O Brien/McLaughlin/Heaslip - again nothing out of the ordinary as far as I'm concerned, but I do rate O Brien. Heaslip finds the step up to international level a step too far.
Murray/Reddan, limited players.
Sexton - well up to the job.
Darcy - finished
O Driscoll - was a world class player, too many miles on the clock, little to offer in attack but great heart and great defender.
Trimble - good provincial player.
McFadden - good but not great.
Kearney - Great long punt and catcher of the ball, suspect in defense and attack

thomond2006

Podge_irl wrote: »

I think Kidney could pick 15 All Blacks and not win. Not least because he'd probably pick Brad Thorn at scrum half for his physicality.

Brad Thorn would probably get the ball away quicker than Murray.

fitz

liammur wrote: »

Our front 3 are average at best, England demolished our scrum.
D Tuohy/ D Ryan - H cup level
O Brien/McLaughlin/Heaslip - again nothing out of the ordinary as far as I'm concerned, but I do rate O Brien. Heaslip finds the step up to international level a step too far.
Murray/Reddan, limited players.
Sexton - well up to the job.
Darcy - finished
O Driscoll - was a world class player, too many miles on the clock, little to offer in attack but great heart and great defender.
Trimble - good provincial player.
McFadden - good but not great.
Kearney - Great long punt and catcher of the ball, suspect in defense and attack

Some woefully uninformed opinions there.

JustinDee

liammur wrote: »

Our front 3 are average at best, England demolished our scrum.
D Tuohy/ D Ryan - H cup level
O Brien/McLaughlin/Heaslip - again nothing out of the ordinary as far as I'm concerned, but I do rate O Brien. Heaslip finds the step up to international level a step too far.
Murray/Reddan, limited players.
Sexton - well up to the job.
Darcy - finished
O Driscoll - was a world class player, too many miles on the clock, little to offer in attack but great heart and great defender.
Trimble - good provincial player.
McFadden - good but not great.
Kearney - Great long punt and catcher of the ball, suspect in defense and attack

Don't give up the day job...

liammur

fitz wrote: »

Some woefully uninformed opinions there.

Opinion is the word. However, results will categorically back up my opinion.
In fairness, we can only throw the kidney card for so long.
Where are we rated in the world rankings?

thomond2006

liammur wrote: »

Our front 3 are average at best, England demolished our scrum.
D Tuohy/ D Ryan - H cup level
O Brien/McLaughlin/Heaslip - again nothing out of the ordinary as far as I'm concerned, but I do rate O Brien. Heaslip finds the step up to international level a step too far.
Murray/Reddan, limited players.
Sexton - well up to the job.
Darcy - finished
O Driscoll - was a world class player, too many miles on the clock, little to offer in attack but great heart and great defender.
Trimble - good provincial player.
McFadden - good but not great.
Kearney - Great long punt and catcher of the ball, suspect in defense and attack

It's very easy to write stuff like this, why don't you post your altenatives i.e. who would you play?

fitz

liammur wrote: »

Opinion is the word. However, results will categorically back up my opinion.
In fairness, we can only throw the kidney card for so long.
Where are we rated in the world rankings?

Post hoc ergo propter hoc. Look it up.
World rankings are dictated by results, which have been poor due to our coach since the grand slam.

The fact that you're using the England game to back up your opinions of the front row being average at best says it all. We were playing one of the best (illegally) scrummaging sides around, and had two looseheads in the front row for most of the game.

But hey, don't let that stop you writing off Healy's strong showings at scrumtime when he has a proper tighthead locking it out, or his incredible dynamic play and carrying in the loose, or Best exactly the same from Best. And yeah, Mike Ross is average because of the England game when he got injured.

Sorry, but you're version of "backing up" your point isn't gonna fly.

Fishooks12

liammur wrote: »

Our front 3 are average at best, England demolished our scrum.

We've a good scrum. We were demolished that day because we had a LH on the bench who had to come on at TH for the entire game. We destroyed the English front row the year before last when we had players in the right position

D Tuohy/ D Ryan - H cup level

D Ryan has been fantastic for Ireland all year, one of our best performers in the six nations. Certainly not HC standard. Tuohy hasn't been seen enough of yet but all his attributes point to a player that's good enough

O Brien/McLaughlin/Heaslip - again nothing out of the ordinary as far as I'm concerned, but I do rate O Brien. Heaslip finds the step up to international level a step too far.

Locky probably is on the cusp of his limits at International level but Heaslip and SOB will both be Lions tourists. Heaslip was fantastic in the 6 nations and for Leinster this year, he's probably the second best 8 in the NH when on form.

Murray/Reddan, limited players

.

Agreed, although Reddan can do a job and Murray has bags of potential

O Driscoll - was a world class player, too many miles on the clock, little to offer in attack but great heart and great defender.

Little to offer in attack made me laugh. He's still the best 13 in the world in my eyes and although he's lost pace he's nearly made up for it with this wonderful ability to read the game

Trimble - good provincial player.

He's a decent International too but I don't think you'll find anyone saying he's World class or anything

McFadden - good but not great.

I think he's out of his depth at this level, certainly on the wing

Kearney - Great long punt and catcher of the ball, suspect in defense and attack

Suspect in attack?! He's probably our best broken field runner

Some really lazy uninformed points there

liammur

thomond2006 wrote: »

It's very easy to write stuff like this, why don't you post your altenatives i.e. who would you play?

You miss the point. I never said we have better player. (Ferris and O Connell would be in, but Kidney also would have them in).

I'm saying many people (the Hugh Farrellys of this world) completely over rate our players based on a weak H Cup. Would Ulster make the Super 15 final? Would Edinburgh make the semis?

I'm not being critical of these guys, they are trying their best. I just think it's silly and far too simplistic an analysis to blame everything on Kidney. Yes, he's limited but there's more to it than that. Look at that team, and can anyone honestly tell me it's good enough to beat NZ regardless of who's in charge?

sydthebeat

liammur wrote: »

Our front 3 are average at best, England demolished our scrum.
D Tuohy/ D Ryan - H cup level
O Brien/McLaughlin/Heaslip - again nothing out of the ordinary as far as I'm concerned, but I do rate O Brien. Heaslip finds the step up to international level a step too far.
Murray/Reddan, limited players.
Sexton - well up to the job.
Darcy - finished
O Driscoll - was a world class player, too many miles on the clock, little to offer in attack but great heart and great defender.
Trimble - good provincial player.
McFadden - good but not great.
Kearney - Great long punt and catcher of the ball, suspect in defense and attack

a huge pile of horse manure there

liammur

Fishooks12 wrote: »

We've a good scrum. We were demolished that day because we had a LH on the bench who had to come on at TH for the entire game. We destroyed the English front row the year before last when we had players in the right position




D Ryan has been fantastic for Ireland all year, one of our best performers in the six nations. Certainly not HC standard. Tuohy hasn't been seen enough of yet but all his attributes point to a player that's good enough




Locky probably is on the cusp of his limits at International level but Heaslip and SOB will both be Lions tourists. Heaslip was fantastic in the 6 nations and for Leinster this year, he's probably the second best 8 in the NH when on form.

.

Agreed, although Reddan can do a job and Murray has bags of potential





Little to offer in attack made me laugh. He's still the best 13 in the world in my eyes and although he's lost pace he's nearly made up for it with this wonderful ability to read the game



He's a decent International too but I don't think you'll find anyone saying he's World class or anything



I think he's out of his depth at this level, certainly on the wing




Suspect in attack?! He's probably our best broken field runner

Some really lazy uninformed points there

I suspect we'll be demolished up front fairly soon again regardless of who's in.

Fishooks12

liammur wrote: »

I suspect we'll be demolished up front fairly soon again regardless of who's in.

More lazy conclusions. What evidence have you to back this up?

When was the last time Ross or Healy were demolished up front?