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Ireland Tour to New Zealand 2012 Discussion thread

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    #2492
    liammur
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,461 ✭✭✭liammur


    Fishooks12 wrote: »
    More lazy conclusions. What evidence have you to back this up?

    When was the last time Ross or Healy were demolished up front?

    I watched the ospreys do a serious number on leinster in the Rabo final.


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    #2493
    Fishooks12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,318 ✭✭✭Fishooks12


    liammur wrote: »
    I watched the ospreys do a serious number on leinster in the Rabo final.

    You'll be aware that Ross went off injured after 10 minutes so? And Healy wasn't even togged out?

    Maybe check your facts next time


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    #2494
    fitz
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 8,122 ✭✭✭fitz


    liammur wrote: »
    You miss the point. I never said we have better player. (Ferris and O Connell would be in, but Kidney also would have them in).

    I'm saying many people (the Hugh Farrellys of this world) completely over rate our players based on a weak H Cup. Would Ulster make the Super 15 final? Would Edinburgh make the semis?

    I'm not being critical of these guys, they are trying their best. I just think it's silly and far too simplistic an analysis to blame everything on Kidney. Yes, he's limited but there's more to it than that. Look at that team, and can anyone honestly tell me it's good enough to beat NZ regardless of who's in charge?

    Do you think a first team Leinster side could beat NZ?
    I think they have it in them to at least push NZ very close.
    And once Strauss qualifies this Autumn, a first choice Leinster side would have only one, perhaps two, NIQ players - Nacewa and Thorn (assuming we replace him with another NIQ).

    Add in Ferris, O'Connell, Earls (at wing) and you've improved on that team.
    Honestly, you're complaint about it being too simple to just blame the coach and that the players aren't there to take the step up to International level doesn't hold up to even the mildest scrutiny. The players are there, and are more than capable of the high intensity stuff, but without a competent coach, that doesn't make a difference.


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    #2495
    liammur
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,461 ✭✭✭liammur


    Fishooks12 wrote: »
    You'll be aware that Ross went off injured after 10 minutes so? And Healy wasn't even togged out?

    Maybe check your facts next time

    Ross went off, also off against England, bit of a coincidence? Thought so too.


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    #2496
    Clearlier
    Registered Users Posts: 4,454 ✭✭✭Clearlier


    liammur wrote: »
    Our front 3 are average at best, England demolished our scrum.
    D Tuohy/ D Ryan - H cup level
    O Brien/McLaughlin/Heaslip - again nothing out of the ordinary as far as I'm concerned, but I do rate O Brien. Heaslip finds the step up to international level a step too far.
    Murray/Reddan, limited players.
    Sexton - well up to the job.
    Darcy - finished
    O Driscoll - was a world class player, too many miles on the clock, little to offer in attack but great heart and great defender.
    Trimble - good provincial player.
    McFadden - good but not great.
    Kearney - Great long punt and catcher of the ball, suspect in defense and attack


    Here's how I rate the Irish team - what of this is overrating?

    If you're not aware of why England demolished the Irish scrum then I think you lose a lot of credibility. I suspect you are aware though. The Irish front row stands up pretty well at international level. Healy is a slightly inconsistent scrummager but has been getting more consistent, is rarely in trouble and sometimes causes trouble for the opposition. He masterfully engineered a penalty last Saturday just after Loughney came on and before we realised he can't scrummage at this level. His work around the pitch is very, very good. Best has quietly developed into a really good hooker, his throwing is still his weakest link but it's not that weak (one lost throw last weekend), his scrummaging is good and he's quietly effective around the pitch - the hit he made on Savea off a switch (that Earls couldn't read later on) was huge. Ross has locked the scrum quite effectively for Ireland, his contribution around the pitch isn't massive but then it's rare enough you find a tight head who contributes around the pitch.

    Tuohy is not international level yet, Ryan is - although a slightly bigger version of him wouldn't go amiss.

    I don't know enough about McLaughlin's game to rate him - was certainly surprised to see O'Mahoney lose out to him. Sean O'Brien is gradually turning into a very, very good 7. He's still learning and making mistakes but that'll come. On purely playing terms (leaving out leadership) I would not want McCaw ahead of him. Heaslip continues to be underrated including by me. I went back and looked at Saturday's match in detail. Heaslip (aside from that brain fart at the back of the scrum) had a very effective game.

    Can't argue about the half backs.

    D'arcy is better than many give him credit for but he's clearly ready to be replaced. I'd certainly SBW or Nonu ahead of him.
    I'd take Conrad Smith ahead of BOD but he's the only one I would take ahead of BOD. BOD hasn't made slashing breaks for a few years now but he contributes enormously to Ireland's attack. He is still the focus of the opposition's defensive efforts - something which Bowe has exploited very well. His defence continues to be excellent.

    Our wingers are only just European cup class. I'd have Bowe, Earls and Fitzgerald ahead of them.

    If you forget about last weeks performance Kearney is an outstanding fullback, great catcher, chaser and kicker, counter attacks well, deceptively strong, passes well and is a bit weak in defence. Last week was the worst performance I've seen from him in a long time though, he looked devoid of confidence all of a sudden. He didn't seem to think that he could catch balls any more. It was very, very strange.


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    #2497
    Fishooks12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,318 ✭✭✭Fishooks12


    liammur wrote: »
    Ross went off, also off against England, bit of a coincidence? Thought so too.

    Can't admit you got it wrong so?


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    #2498
    liammur
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,461 ✭✭✭liammur


    Fishooks12 wrote: »
    Can't admit you got it wrong so?

    Ospreys scrum has demolished leinster time and time again, hence they've won 5 of the last 6 meetings. Clermont demolished Leinster upfront in the 1st half, took off players and threw the game away in the process.

    Our front 3 is average ....at best.


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    #2499
    Fishooks12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,318 ✭✭✭Fishooks12


    liammur wrote: »
    Ross went off, also off against England, bit of a coincidence? Thought so too.

    He's a very important player and it's no coincidence that him going off injured coincided with 2 games where Ireland's scrum was a mess

    Thankfully Fitzpatrick has proved he can do it too if he gets a bit more match fitness

    You still can't offer me any realistic scenario or example as to why you think Ross and Healy are going to "get demolished soon"

    In fact your last example neither player was even on the field for the "demolishing"

    Must try harder


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    #2500
    fitz
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 8,122 ✭✭✭fitz


    liammur wrote: »
    Ospreys scrum has demolished leinster time and time again, hence they've won 5 of the last 6 meetings. Clermont demolished Leinster upfront in the 1st half, took off players and threw the game away in the process.

    Our front 3 is average ....at best.

    Sorry, but again, this is just uninformed and lazily backed up rubbish.
    Welcome to the ignore list.


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    #2501
    liammur
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,461 ✭✭✭liammur


    Clearlier wrote: »
    Here's how I rate the Irish team - what of this is overrating?

    If you're not aware of why England demolished the Irish scrum then I think you lose a lot of credibility. I suspect you are aware though. The Irish front row stands up pretty well at international level. Healy is a slightly inconsistent scrummager but has been getting more consistent, is rarely in trouble and sometimes causes trouble for the opposition. He masterfully engineered a penalty last Saturday just after Loughney came on and before we realised he can't scrummage at this level. His work around the pitch is very, very good. Best has quietly developed into a really good hooker, his throwing is still his weakest link but it's not that weak (one lost throw last weekend), his scrummaging is good and he's quietly effective around the pitch - the hit he made on Savea off a switch (that Earls couldn't read later on) was huge. Ross has locked the scrum quite effectively for Ireland, his contribution around the pitch isn't massive but then it's rare enough you find a tight head who contributes around the pitch.

    Tuohy is not international level yet, Ryan is - although a slightly bigger version of him wouldn't go amiss.

    I don't know enough about McLaughlin's game to rate him - was certainly surprised to see O'Mahoney lose out to him. Sean O'Brien is gradually turning into a very, very good 7. He's still learning and making mistakes but that'll come. On purely playing terms (leaving out leadership) I would not want McCaw ahead of him. Heaslip continues to be underrated including by me. I went back and looked at Saturday's match in detail. Heaslip (aside from that brain fart at the back of the scrum) had a very effective game.

    Can't argue about the half backs.

    D'arcy is better than many give him credit for but he's clearly ready to be replaced. I'd certainly SBW or Nonu ahead of him.
    I'd take Conrad Smith ahead of BOD but he's the only one I would take ahead of BOD. BOD hasn't made slashing breaks for a few years now but he contributes enormously to Ireland's attack. He is still the focus of the opposition's defensive efforts - something which Bowe has exploited very well. His defence continues to be excellent.

    Our wingers are only just European cup class. I'd have Bowe, Earls and Fitzgerald ahead of them.

    If you forget about last weeks performance Kearney is an outstanding fullback, great catcher, chaser and kicker, counter attacks well, deceptively strong, passes well and is a bit weak in defence. Last week was the worst performance I've seen from him in a long time though, he looked devoid of confidence all of a sudden. He didn't seem to think that he could catch balls any more. It was very, very strange.

    A lot of good info in here that I suggest people read.


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    #2502
    TheKeenMachine
    Registered Users Posts: 388 ✭✭TheKeenMachine


    liammur wrote: »
    Our front 3 are average at best, England demolished our scrum.
    D Tuohy/ D Ryan - H cup level
    O Brien/McLaughlin/Heaslip - again nothing out of the ordinary as far as I'm concerned, but I do rate O Brien. Heaslip finds the step up to international level a step too far.
    Murray/Reddan, limited players.
    Sexton - well up to the job.
    Darcy - finished
    O Driscoll - was a world class player, too many miles on the clock, little to offer in attack but great heart and great defender.
    Trimble - good provincial player.
    McFadden - good but not great.
    Kearney - Great long punt and catcher of the ball, suspect in defense and attack
    Firstly, England demolished our front row when we had our backup LH, Tom Court, playing at TH. You can't judge our performance on that game alone.

    Touhy has made one start for Ireland, and you're already dismissing him as HC level, and Ryan would start for all 6N teams. You also seem to be forgetting about Paul O'Connell, the captain of the Lions.

    O'Brien was European player of the year last year and arguably outplayed McCaw at the weekend. Absoloute rubbish that Heaslip is out of his depth at international level, what evidence is there for that? He consistently plays the role of a 7.5 in winning turnovers and making tackles. McLaughlin is not a regular, our number 6 is usually Ferris, arguably the best no.6 in the world.

    I would agree that Murray and Reddan are ordinary, but Reddan in particular does his job very well in getting the backs moving. We also have Isaac Boss, who is as good, if not better than Murray.

    Sexton is indeed up to the job. Madigan, the man who under a competent coach would be back up at 10, is the top try-scoring out-half in the Rabo, who offers huge threat with ball in hand.

    D'Arcy is certainly not finished, yes he had a poor 6N but he has been very good since then. Drico is one of the two best 13s in the world (being in the top two players in your position on the planet generally makes you world class). Keith Earls is also a superb player and scored 5 tries in 5 games at the WC, suggesting that he is in fact a Test-Quality player.

    On the wings, we have Tommy Bowe, the top try scorer in the 6N this year, Trimble, a key player in the Ulster side who reached the Heineken Cup final, McFadden, the fastest player in the team, (who is, I'll admit, a limited player), and 3 young tyros breaking through in Gilroy, Kearney and Zebo.

    Lastly, I can not believe you said Kearney is suspect in attack. Go back and watch the French game and then say that again. He may be poor defensively, but he is without a doubt one of the best full-backs in the world, and is ERC player of the year.

    Please stop trying to tell us we don't have good players, because we do. Rant over.


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    #2503
    Fishooks12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,318 ✭✭✭Fishooks12


    fitz wrote: »
    Sorry, but again, this is just uninformed and lazily backed up rubbish.
    Welcome to the ignore list.

    +1


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    #2504
    CatFromHue
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,157 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    liammur wrote: »
    Ospreys scrum has demolished leinster time and time again, hence they've won 5 of the last 6 meetings. Clermont demolished Leinster upfront in the 1st half, took off players and threw the game away in the process.

    Our front 3 is average ....at best.

    Lol Healy and Ross's combined game time against The Ospreys for the three games this season is 14 mins out of a potential 480! (3 games *80 mins *2 players)


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    #2505
    liammur
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,461 ✭✭✭liammur


    Fishooks12 wrote: »
    +1

    Always a sign of defeat :)


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    #2506
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,590 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    liammur wrote: »
    Always a sign of defeat :)

    -1 :)


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    #2507
    liammur
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,461 ✭✭✭liammur


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    -1 :)

    :)

    No harm in a bit of humour!


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    #2508
    liammur
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,461 ✭✭✭liammur


    I didn't delete any post, and why should I ?


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    #2509
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    I'm guessing a Munster fan who believes (or wishes) the decline of Munster must automatically = the decline of Irish rugby!

    Our front row is excellent. Our whole pack, fully fit, is excellent (ask Australia). It's our attacking play which is woeful (and has been for years, including 2009, since EOS left) and that is what holds us back from being the team we should be.


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    #2510
    Fishooks12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,318 ✭✭✭Fishooks12


    CatFromHue wrote: »
    Lol Healy and Ross's combined game time against The Ospreys for the three games this season is 14 mins out of a potential 480! (3 games *80 mins *2 players)

    CatFromHue negates your ridiculous Ospreys point here and you still can't give a real example as to why we should expect Healy and Ross to get destroyed by a scrum anytime soon

    People might take your opinion more seriously if you didn't back them up so lazily and inaccurately


    ( I see you didn't delete your post, i must have skipped over it, my bad)


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    #2511
    Fishooks12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,318 ✭✭✭Fishooks12


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    I'm guessing a Munster fan who believes (or wishes) the decline of Munster must automatically = the decline of Irish rugby!

    Our front row is excellent. Our whole pack, fully fit, is excellent (ask Australia). It's our attacking play which is woeful (and has been for years, including 2009, since EOS left) and that is what holds us back from being the team we should be.

    this


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    #2512
    liammur
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,461 ✭✭✭liammur


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    I'm guessing a Munster fan who believes (or wishes) the decline of Munster must automatically = the decline of Irish rugby!

    Our front row is excellent. Our whole pack, fully fit, is excellent (ask Australia). It's our attacking play which is woeful (and has been for years, including 2009, since EOS left) and that is what holds us back from being the team we should be.

    A decline? Irish rugby has won 1 grand slam in 50 odd years. This is essentially what I'm saying. Has nothing to do with current Munster or Leinster players.


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    #2513
    Fishooks12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,318 ✭✭✭Fishooks12


    liammur wrote: »
    A decline? Irish rugby has won 1 grand slam in 50 odd years. This is essentially what I'm saying. Has nothing to do with current Munster or Leinster players.

    He was talking about the decline of Munster?! Nothing to do with Grand Slams


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    #2514
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    liammur wrote: »
    A decline? Irish rugby has won 1 grand slam in 50 odd years. This is essentially what I'm saying. Has nothing to do with current Munster or Leinster players.

    Yep, our pack is average and ordinary!

    :pac:


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    #2515
    liammur
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,461 ✭✭✭liammur


    Fishooks12 wrote: »
    He was talking about the decline of Munster?! Nothing to do with Grand Slams

    I'd always put Ireland ahead of the provinces. Yes, the decline of munster is bad news for Ireland, as a decline in leinster and ulster would also be bad news. We need all our provinces at a good level because we do have a small playing population.


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    #2516
    liammur
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,461 ✭✭✭liammur


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    Yep, our pack is average and ordinary!

    :pac:

    Exactly. But our pack has always been inferior to the french or english packs, even when munster had probably the best pack in europe.


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    #2517
    Tox56
    Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    liammur wrote: »
    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    Yep, our pack is average and ordinary!

    :pac:

    Exactly. But our pack has always been inferior to the french or english packs, even when munster had probably the best pack in europe.

    Who, out of the English pack, would you swap for someone in the Irish pack?

    I'd have Healy over whoever England have at LH now, Best over Hartley, Cole and Ross are about the same, I'd have our second rows and the backrow.

    Some are marginal calls, but I don't think there is 1 person you could say from the English pack is clearly superior to their Irish opposite number.


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    #2518
    liammur
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,461 ✭✭✭liammur


    Tox56 wrote: »
    Who, out of the English pack, would you swap for someone in the Irish pack?

    I'd have Healy over whoever England have at LH now, Best over Hartley, Cole and Ross are about the same, I'd have our second rows and the backrow.

    Some are marginal calls, but I don't think there is 1 person you could say from the English pack is clearly superior to their Irish opposite number.

    I'd swap our front 3. The real difference I would say is we have no strength in depth in the crucial front 3 positions.


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    #2519
    Alan Creamy Oxygen
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ Alan Creamy Oxygen


    liammur wrote: »
    I'd swap our front 3. The real difference I would say is we have no strength in depth in the crucial front 3 positions.

    who's the English Loosehead that you would swap for?

    don't google now...


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    #2520
    TheKeenMachine
    Registered Users Posts: 388 ✭✭TheKeenMachine


    Deleted User wrote: »
    who's the English Loosehead that you would swap for?

    don't google now...

    Tbf Corisibiero is a good player, much of a muchness between himself and Ciano


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    #2521
    profitius
    Registered Users Posts: 3,976 ✭✭✭profitius


    The decline is Munster has stopped. Its all upwards from here on. ;)


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