Ireland Tour to New Zealand 2012 Discussion thread

Fishooks12

Podge_irl wrote: »

Surprised not to see Wallace there. He deserved to travel in his own right, but I assumed he would be providing fly half cover as well.

Zebo :rolleyes:

Really don't understand the animosity towards Zebo on here

I see himself and Gilroy as much of a muchness at this stage, both have huge potential but still have big flaws in their game, mainly defensively

Tox56

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Really don't understand the animosity towards Zebo on here

I see himself and Gilroy as much of a muchness at this stage, both have huge potential but still have big flaws in their game, mainly defensively

Gilroy played in a HEC final yesterday, as did Dave Kearney, and Kearney Jr. was more impressive than Zebo during the game for the Wolfhounds.

ScissorPaperRock

http://www.irishrugby.ie/ireland/26552.php

The squad has been announced on the IRFU website

Apparently Wilkinson is set to fill in if Court is out.

Fishooks12

Tox56 wrote: »

Gilroy played in a HEC final yesterday, as did Dave Kearney, and Kearney Jr. was more impressive than Zebo during the game for the Wolfhounds.

1st highlighted bit: So did Leo Cullen, does that mean he should be ahead of D Ryan?

2nd Bit: Basing selection on one game is a bit silly. Kearney is a good player but Zebo has much more potential

Podge_irl

Fishooks12 wrote: »

I see himself and Gilroy as much of a muchness at this stage, both have huge potential but still have big flaws in their game, mainly defensively

I have no animosity towards him. I think he has great potential, but D. Kearney and Gilroy are both currently better players.

Given the small size of the squad its quite likely Zebo will see some gametime, and frankly that worries me.

Tox56

Fishooks12 wrote: »

1st highlighted bit: So did Leo Cullen, does that mean he should be ahead of D Ryan?

2nd Bit: Basing selection on one game is a bit silly. Kearney is a good player but Zebo has much more potential

No, but the decision between D Ryan and Cullen isn't a toss up like the Zebo selection is. Going by what I have seen D Kearney in particular has looked more assured than Zebo (both attack and defence taken into consideration).

And I would disagree Zebo has far more potential, he is a talent but so are Gilroy and D Kearney, who are both better at the moment (imo).

Fishooks12

Tox56 wrote: »

No, but the decision between D Ryan and Cullen isn't a toss up like the Zebo selection is. Going by what I have seen D Kearney in particular has looked more assured than Zebo (both attack and defence taken into consideration).

And I would disagree Zebo has far more potential, he is a talent but so are Gilroy and D Kearney, who are both better at the moment (imo).

well we'll have to agree to disagree so!

Although I do think it was a real toss up between Gilroy and Zebo anway, would have been happy to see either of them travel

Quint2010

bamboozle wrote: »

3 new caps in squad, zebo, sherry, fitzpatrick

Forwards (16):
Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster)
Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
Stephen Ferris (Dungannon/Ulster)
Declan Fitzpatrick (Dungannon /Ulster)*
Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster)
Jamie Heaslip (Naas/Leinster)
Sean O'Brien (Clontarf/Leinster)
Donncha O'Callaghan (Cork Constitution/Munster)
Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster)
Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster)
Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster)
Mike Sherry (Garryowen/Munster)*
Dan Tuohy (Ballymena /Ulster)
A.N. Other
A.N. Other
A.N. Other
Backs (13):
Darren Cave ( Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)
Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster)
Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster)
Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster)
Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
Brian O'Driscoll (UCD/Leinster) Captain
Ronan O'Gara (Cork Constitution/Munster)
Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Jonathan Sexton (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster)
Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster)*
A.N. Other
*Denotes Uncapped Player

The 3 AN Other's in the forwards are being held for POC, Wilkinson and Henry. Very surprised to see McLoughlin omitted-he was superb on Saturday. As usual Deccie manages to shoehorn 8 Munster (potentially 9) players into the squad while only picking. Zebo of course gets ahead of Dave Kearney and Gilroy because he wears red on his back. Why has Deccie picked O'Callaghan ahead of Cullen? What about Toner? Beggars belief. And-well I am kind of glad Madigan didn't get picked as he won't be exposed to the negative Kidney tactics

Fishooks12

Fishooks12 wrote: »

1st highlighted bit: So did Leo Cullen, does that mean he should be ahead of D Ryan?

2nd Bit: Basing selection on one game is a bit silly. Kearney is a good player but Zebo has much more potential

1 - No, Cullen is a fading force on a downwards curve, Ryan is on a path upwards hopefully. A dreadful comparison to make.
2 - gas

GerM

Fishooks12 wrote: »

2nd Bit: Basing selection on one game is a bit silly. Kearney is a good player but Zebo has much more potential

Kearney is 9 months older and is a more rounded player at this point. Far from the finished article and needs work on aspects of his game too. Don't think there's much reasoning for Zebo having much more potential. Both played in a semi final last week with very different performances. Zebo's showing was representative of his season. Looked lively and dangerous in space with the ball but was AWOL when Munster were under pressure. Zebo is fantastic running hard at space but he needs a lot of work on his game without the ball.

Winters

I would like to have seen Gilroy in there instead of Zebo but with only 29 places Kidney hasn't given himself any room to experiment. On the other hand Lancaster is bringing 42 to South Africa and I think the IRFU have missed a great opportunity to blood some players on this tour in a midweek match.

Fishooks12

Deleted User wrote: »

1 - No, Cullen is a fading force on a downwards curve, Ryan is on a path upwards hopefully. A dreadful comparison to make.
2 - gas

I made the comparison because it was suggested playing in a HC final should improve your chances of selection over someone who hasn't, I don't think this is in anyway true

I don't see what you find funny about me suggesting rating a player over another based on an Ireland A game is a bit silly ?

Tox56

Fishooks12 wrote: »

I made the comparison because it was suggested playing in a HC final should improve your chances of selection over someone who hasn't, I don't think this is in anyway true

I don't see what you find funny about me suggesting rating a player over another based on an Ireland A game is a bit silly ?

In the developement of a young player, playing (and in Gilroy's case, starting) a HEC Final is hugely significant, and the experience is invaluable. In such a toss up, it should be taken into consideration. The fact he had some good moments is a plus.

Fishooks12

Fishooks12 wrote: »

I made the comparison because it was suggested playing in a HC final should improve your chances of selection over someone who hasn't, I don't think this is in anyway true

I don't see what you find funny about me suggesting rating a player over another based on an Ireland A game is a bit silly ?

Cullen 32 Ryan 29
Zebo,Kearney and Gilroy at least share a year of birth

The comparison was made to belittle a very valid point.

I found the "more potential" comment hilarious tbh.

CatFromHue

Winters wrote: »

On the other hand Lancaster is bringing 42 to South Africa and I think the IRFU have missed a great opportunity to blood some players on this tour in a midweek match.

England are playing two mid week friendlies hence the larger squad.

Ireland are only playing test matches.

Quint2010

Deleted User wrote: »

Cullen 32 Ryan 29
Zebo,Kearney and Gilroy at least share a year of birth

The comparison was made to belittle a very valid point.

I found the "more potential" comment hilarious tbh.

Cullen is 34 I think.

Fishooks12

Deleted User wrote: »

Cullen 32 Ryan 29
Zebo,Kearney and Gilroy at least share a year of birth

The comparison was made to belittle a very valid point.

I found the "more potential" comment hilarious tbh.

The irony of you saying I was trying to belittle Tox's point when you can only say "gas" to my opinion that Zebo has more potential than Kearney

I think if Zebo sorts out his defense he's got more of a running threat to be better than Kearney, but obviously you feel anyone elses opinion apart from your own merits laughter

RoundBox11

What an infuriating selection!! :mad:

I'm really losing interest in this tour now.

What on earth does kidney hope to gain by bringing DOC, ROG and D'arcy?? Its so utterly pointless. What are we going to get from them that Toner, Madigan or Wallace wouldn't bring. I'd trade lack of experience for being ****e any day!!

I think its absurd that Zebo should be picked ahead of Kearney and Gilroy. Clearly a case of Munster bias.

why on earth would he pick Fitzpatrick and Wilkinson and not pick Loughney? That will leave us with a bench prop who cannot has has not cover(ed) both sides! Loughney is the only ambipropsterous prop we have left for christ sake.

I usually stand up for kidneys decisions somewhat, but not anymore. I've actually given up all hope for this team until he's gone. The sooner the better. :mad::mad::mad:

Fishooks12

Fishooks12 wrote: »

The irony of you saying I was trying to belittle Tox's point when you can only say "gas" to my opinion that Zebo has more potential than Kearney

because it's an utterly subjective and massively opinionated. Your opinion that Zebo has more potential than AN Other is not a valid point.

"Danny Barnes for Ireland" anyone?

Fishooks12

Tox56 wrote: »

In the developement of a young player, playing (and in Gilroy's case, starting) a HEC Final is hugely significant, and the experience is invaluable. In such a toss up, it should be taken into consideration. The fact he had some good moments is a plus.

Maybe, but I don't think it holds much weight to be honest. If I was picking the squad I would have went with Gilroy but I don't see the Zebo selection as much of a travesty tbh. Certainly not in comparison to the likes of DOC being selected and Toner, Cullen and wallace being left out

Fishooks12

Deleted User wrote: »

because it's an utterly subjective and massively opinionated. Your opinion that Zebo has more potential than AN Other is not a valid point.

"Danny Barnes for Ireland" anyone?

Did I claim it was anything more than opinion? Christ you're making me out to be some sort of jm08 character or something!

Fishooks12

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Did I claim it was anything more than opinion? Christ you're making me out to be some sort of jm08 character or something!

I'm not, I don't think you realised that your point is read like that.

Saying "Kearney is a good player but Zebo has much more potential" as a way of justifying his inclusion just reads completely wrong.

Zebo has had a great season going forwards, a poor season defending, and a not so great season in terms of silverware.
Gilroy has had a great season going forwards, has shown massive improvements in his defence over the past 18 months, and started a tonne of games for the HEC silver medalists.
Kearney has scored tries, defended well and generally had a pretty all-round "decent" season while picking up a HEC winners medal.

In a season with nothing to choose between them (which I personally don't think it is), it's telling that Kidney's selection echoes people's opinions of his bias.

Podge_irl

I think you could describe Zebo as having more potential then Kearney solely down to his gas, obviously Kearney isn't going to get any quicker. There is no guarantee either that Zebo will improve his defence and general positioning. Right now, if I had to put one of them on the pitch to play the ABs it would be Dave Kearney by a fair distance.

Gilroy, I think, is somewhere between the two of them. More likely to spark something then Kearney, though has a few issues in defence. Definitely think he is further along then Zebo though.

There are worse selections in the squad (DOC/ROG, no Wallace - one I completely can't fathom). However, for a squad so devoid of upcoming players, I find the ones that are selected rather underwhelming.

Fishooks12

Podge_irl wrote: »

I think you could describe Zebo as having more potential then Kearney solely down to his gas, obviously Kearney isn't going to get any quicker. There is no guarantee either that Zebo will improve his defence and general positioning. Right now, if I had to put one of them on the pitch to play the ABs it would be Dave Kearney by a fair distance.

Gilroy, I think, is somewhere between the two of them. More likely to spark something then Kearney, though has a few issues in defence. Definitely think he is further along then Zebo though.

There are worse selections in the squad (DOC/ROG, no Wallace - one I completely can't fathom). However, for a squad so devoid of upcoming players, I find the ones that are selected rather underwhelming.

This is essentially exactly how I feel, +1

Tox56

Well, at the very least, Darren Cave and Dan Tuohy have forced their way in kicking and screaming, even Kidney couldn't ignore them for too much longer.

thebaz

really imaginative thought provoking selections from Kidney , yet again !

Fishooks12

What happens if ROG or Sexton gets injured so? Is Wallace called up or is it Madigan

shuffol

Can see this turning out the same way as the 6N, nothing ventured in terms of selections and planning for the future and most likely nothing gained in terms of results. Sigh.
ROG will most likely start his first Ireland test in almost a year and I think we'll really see how far he's fallen at this level, and his last start wasnt too good either.

thomond2006

Typical Munster biased crap again, Zebo over Gilroy is madness.

bamboozle

why couldnt they make it a 30 man squad or a 32 man squad and bring along Gilroy, Madigan & McLaughlin. No doubt we'll see withdrawals before they leave and we'll probably see lads flying over to replace injured players.

McLaughlin must be the most underrated player in Ireland by a long distance.