Ireland Tour to New Zealand 2012 Discussion thread

Clearlier

RoundBox11 wrote: »

I never thought i'd be worried about missing D'Arcy during this series. I'd be fairly certain it'll be Earls and BOD in the centre again. Although I'd have BOD and Cave together with Earls on the wing instead of McFadden.

I hope not or at least if it is I hope that Earls actually plays 12 this time because he hadn't a notion of how to defend from 13. Cave is a far better option at 13 if we insist on putting BOD in at 12 (I don't think that we should).

DDC1990 wrote: »

Do you remember Paddy Wallace in the HC Final playing differently.

It was a while ago, but to my memory Wallace was anonymous in the Final, and dominated through the middle defensivly.

Leinster were on fire, but he still played shíte.

Im open to correction.

Others have corrected you but let me add this. I was at the HC final and couldn't for the life of me remember who the Ulster 12 was. He was a class above the rest of his team in attack, running better lines and causing Leinster all sorts of problems. He was weak in defence though - not missing tackles but never dominating them and usually giving ground. I looked it up afterwards and couldn't believe that I had forgotten that it was Paddy Wallace. He had an oustanding game in the final really rising to the occasion. He has a history of doing the same against New Zealand (on the Bradley tour I think? or maybe the one before that). If our sole aim to put the best players on the pitch he'll be there. I don't think that McFadden is a weak tackler but he is a weak defender and could read situations better. Earls is a similar defender but much better in attack however I believe he's a relatively long shot to be fit to play so Wallace seems like the almost uncontested option. I understand the attraction of a ROG/Sexton axis but if the kiwis prepared to face ROG they'd send men down his channel all day long and we'd quickly find ourselves on the back foot.

geotrig wrote: »

I dont think its disasterous, the only thing to conclude really is 1st game drift defence did not work 2nd game blitz defence caused nz problems and worked overall well

The biggest defensive problem in the first test was that Earls didn't close down the options of whomever he was facing. He stood off and gave them time and space to play.

I only caught the game from the 24th minute on but as I was watching it I was thinking that I had been a bit harsh on Murray's ability to clear the ball away, then Reddan came on and I realised that I hadn't been. This was part of the reason that ROG looked so good, he was behind a pack that was going forward and a scrumhalf that was moving the ball quickly. He certainly played well but there ar other factors that should be considered too!

Fishooks12

Clearlier wrote: »

I hope not or at least if it is I hope that Earls actually plays 12 this time because he hadn't a notion of how to defend from 13. Cave is a far better option at 13 if we insist on putting BOD in at 12 (I don't think that we should).



Others have corrected you but let me add this. I was at the HC final and couldn't for the life of me remember who the Ulster 12 was. He was a class above the rest of his team in attack, running better lines and causing Leinster all sorts of problems. He was weak in defence though - not missing tackles but never dominating them and usually giving ground. I looked it up afterwards and couldn't believe that I had forgotten that it was Paddy Wallace. He had an oustanding game in the final really rising to the occasion. He has a history of doing the same against New Zealand (on the Bradley tour I think? or maybe the one before that). If our sole aim to put the best players on the pitch he'll be there. I don't think that McFadden is a weak tackler but he is a weak defender and could read situations better. Earls is a similar defender but much better in attack however I believe he's a relatively long shot to be fit to play so Wallace seems like the almost uncontested option. I understand the attraction of a ROG/Sexton axis but if the kiwis prepared to face ROG they'd send men down his channel all day long and we'd quickly find ourselves on the back foot.



The biggest defensive problem in the first test was that Earls didn't close down the options of whomever he was facing. He stood off and gave them time and space to play.

I only caught the game from the 24th minute on but as I was watching it I was thinking that I had been a bit harsh on Murray's ability to clear the ball away, then Reddan came on and I realised that I hadn't been. This was part of the reason that ROG looked so good, he was behind a pack that was going forward and a scrumhalf that was moving the ball quickly. He certainly played well but there ar other factors that should be considered too!

1st bold bit: Earls is well able to defend at 13. He was solid in the six nations and has been solid for Munster in the position.

2nd bit: The entire backline was doing this, not just Earls. We had a completely different defensive strategy in the 2nd test that involved closing down space quickly and preventing them from off-loading

Tox56

Earls made his tackles, but there were smaller errors that get punished more often than not at international level. Positioning is incredibly difficult, and at this level and against this opposition, it's far harder than making the actual tackle.

BOD was surprisingly poor with his actual tackling the other day, but he was always in the right place.

The first try last week created by Smith is the more higher profile example of a defensive mistake, but there were little gaps here and there, and little breaks that don't necessarily result in a try, but shift momentum and lose field position.

Smith has the ability to make a fool of anyone, and BOD is the master in defence, I would play him at 13 at all costs.

Cpt_Blackbeard

bamboozle wrote: »

agreed, BOD marshalling of the 13 channel last week was excellent, this channel leaked trys the previous week.

Admittedly, we did concede one try in the 13 channel last week, but that was when Cave was introduced. 4 of the other tries were conceded on McFadden's wing.

The biggest difference with the defense in both games had nothing to do with the personnel. The line-speed was upped massively, and defenders actually talked and listened to one another.

It makes most sense to slot in Earls at 13. He has been playing good rugby there and has shut up all but his most ignorant of critics. McFadden has never to my knowledge played an international game at 12 and he rarely features there for Leinster. His distribution isn't good enough and he can't even defend effectively on the wing. Wallace would be a great choice were he not suffering from next to no gametime. Realistically, he won't be training with the squad until ~Wednesday and it would be a huge risk to bring him straight into the team.

Wallace can't be a bench option if we only have 9,10 and back cover on the bench. Wallace can only start.

Unless he drops ROG and goes for Wallace as 10 cover.

If he's flown out to be "part of the squad" for 1 game and not be involved in the match then I will have no words for the anger that I will feel.

irishbucsfan

Alan Creamy Oxygen wrote: »

Wallace can't be a bench option if we only have 9,10 and back cover on the bench. Wallace can only start.

Not really. Earls can cover all positions in the backs. So if he starts at 12 every position is covered.


I think there is some more of people wanting Earls to be a poor defender on here. Our general defense was poor because of our shocking line speed, regardless of who was in what channel at any time. Our line speed has been fine in the past with Earls at 13 though.

Tox56

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Not really. Earls can cover all positions in the backs. So if he starts at 12 every position is covered.


I think there is some more of people wanting Earls to be a poor defender on here. Our general defense was poor because of our shocking line speed, regardless of who was in what channel at any time. Our line speed has been fine in the past with Earls at 13 though.

He's not a poor defender, but he's not as good as BOD

Cpt_Blackbeard

Anyone know when the citing window closes? McLoughlin will be very lucky if he escapes without a healthy ban for gouging/contact with the eye area. Although I don't think he did gouge, in the clip below you can see him repeatedly have a go at McCaw's eye area. The incident starts at ~13.45 in the video.

funky penguin

Could you narrow it down a little bit?

Fishooks12

More I look at the Daag incident I'm starting to think that he was very lucky. He led with his elbow right into Kearneys face.

Borderline red

bamboozle

Fishooks12 wrote: »

More I look at the Daag incident I'm starting to think that he was very lucky. He led with his elbow right into Kearneys face.

Borderline red

Sean Fitzpatrick afterwards didnt think it deserved a yellow!!

GerM

funky penguin wrote: »

Could you narrow it down a little bit?

Maul at about 13.30. McLaughlin tries to remove McCaw who came in at the side of the maul. He grabs around the eye area and then the jersey. Certainly makes contact close to his eyes and could be looking at the standard 12 weeks in the HEC. Don't think there's anything in it but letter of the law etc. Pretty sure the window is closed already anyway. 50 hours from kick off is the normal, I believe.

bamboozle

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Admittedly, we did concede one try in the 13 channel last week, but that was when Cave was introduced. 4 of the other tries were conceded on McFadden's wing.

The biggest difference with the defense in both games had nothing to do with the personnel. The line-speed was upped massively, and defenders actually talked and listened to one another.

It makes most sense to slot in Earls at 13. He has been playing good rugby there and has shut up all but his most ignorant of critics. McFadden has never to my knowledge played an international game at 12 and he rarely features there for Leinster. His distribution isn't good enough and he can't even defend effectively on the wing. Wallace would be a great choice were he not suffering from next to no gametime. Realistically, he won't be training with the squad until ~Wednesday and it would be a huge risk to bring him straight into the team.

there's a big difference between where a try was scored and where the error was made on pitch that resulted in the try being scored. no way Mcfadden was at fault for 4 trys in 1st test as insinuated.

BOD is the best defender of the 13 channel in world rugby, he has to stay there.

Leinster v Bath in the Avivia, try scored by Luke Fitz after half time made by a beautifully floated skip pass by McFadden at 12 on the night.

i'd have earls at 11, trimble at 14 and McFadden or Wallace at 12.

Cpt_Blackbeard

funky penguin wrote: »

Could you narrow it down a little bit?

Sorry. The time stamp didn't save when I embedded the video for whatever reason.

Fishooks12

Wow, that's careless from McGloughlin

Liam90

GerM wrote: »

Maul at about 13.30. McLaughlin tries to remove McCaw who came in at the side of the maul. He grabs around the eye area and then the jersey. Certainly makes contact close to his eyes and could be looking at the standard 12 weeks in the HEC. Don't think there's anything in it but letter of the law etc. Pretty sure the window is closed already anyway. 50 hours from kick off is the normal, I believe.

Jesus that was dirty, should get a long ban for that.

Tox56

Hmm, that's a hard one. Impossible to say if he gouged (although it doesn't look like he did), but quite clearly all around the eye/head area.

Then again, you see a lot of attempted decapitation in mauls these days

leftleg

not pretty from Kev, Question though; Ownes is standing right infront of that maul and McCaw right infront of him runs in at the side of the maul and gets right in, am i missing something here?

GerM

Liam90 wrote: »

Jesus that was dirty, should get a long ban for that.

Big difference between reckless and dirty. What Rougerie and Attoub did was dirty. This incident and ones such as Quinlan's were just thoughtless. Players grab around the head in mauls in almost every game in the manner McLaughlin did. You've to be very careful that it doesn't appear that you're going for the eyes. McLaughlin is probably the single most disciplined player in Irish rugby. I wouldn't think for a second he was doing anything aside from trying to forcefully remove a player who had come in at the side.

stephen_n

Tox56 wrote: »

DOC came on just after Ben Franks came on for Owen Franks

Fair point.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Not really. Earls can cover all positions in the backs. So if he starts at 12 every position is covered.


I think there is some more of people wanting Earls to be a poor defender on here. Our general defense was poor because of our shocking line speed, regardless of who was in what channel at any time. Our line speed has been fine in the past with Earls at 13 though.

What if it's Earls who gets injured?

Cpt_Blackbeard

stephen_n wrote: »

What if it's Earls who gets injured?

Any of Sexton, McFadden, Wallace, Cave or Duffy will be able to slot in for him.

irishbucsfan

stephen_n wrote: »

Tox56 wrote: »

DOC came on just after Ben Franks came on for Owen Franks

Fair point.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Not really. Earls can cover all positions in the backs. So if he starts at 12 every position is covered.


I think there is some more of people wanting Earls to be a poor defender on here. Our general defense was poor because of our shocking line speed, regardless of who was in what channel at any time. Our line speed has been fine in the past with Earls at 13 though.

What if it's Earls who gets injured?

Paddy Wallace!

ed7890

Picture gallary of the game from the nzherald, the opening picture isn't a good one for McLaughlin

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/image.cfm?c_id=80&gal_objectid=10813657&gallery_id=126189#9170467

CatFromHue

ed7890 wrote: »

Picture gallary of the game from the nzherald, the opening picture isn't a good one for McLaughlin

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/image.cfm?c_id=80&gal_objectid=10813657&gallery_id=126189#9170467

It's not is it!

The gouging/contact with the eye area has nearly come full circle now. That a couple of years ago would have lead to a ban but it's on a par with what McCarthy did for Connacht against Glasgow in their last Rabo game and he got off. So I dunno anymore!

Mr.Applepie

leftleg wrote: »

not pretty from Kev, Question though; Ownes is standing right infront of that maul and McCaw right infront of him runs in at the side of the maul and gets right in, am i missing something here?

Yes, its Richie McCaw.

leftleg

Mr.Applepie wrote: »

Yes, its Richie McCaw.

Actually upon viewing again, Richie actually comes in at the back and then worms his way into the middle; well played Richie; still got it

Monty Burnz

leftleg wrote: »

not pretty from Kev, Question though; Ownes is standing right infront of that maul and McCaw right infront of him runs in at the side of the maul and gets right in, am i missing something here?

Looked like he joined from the back to me?

edit, Oh right, just saw your last

Clearlier

Fishooks12 wrote: »

1st bold bit: Earls is well able to defend at 13. He was solid in the six nations and has been solid for Munster in the position.

2nd bit: The entire backline was doing this, not just Earls. We had a completely different defensive strategy in the 2nd test that involved closing down space quickly and preventing them from off-loading

You're right, the hyperbole did go into overdrive a little bit. Clearly Earls has got a clue how to defend at 13. What I should have said was that he defended very poorly in the 1st test. I looked at it very closely when I was reviewing the match, he was definitely defending there and he was definitely a step back from where he needed to be. For the 3rd try just after the break he had an opportunity to prevent an offload but he was too far back and by the time he got to make the tackle SBW had loads of time to offload - that move would have been snuffed out there and then if BOD had been defending at 13. I noticed it several times during the game where I guess he was thinking that he would use his pace to get out of trouble. What he needs to do is develop his judgement. I've said before that BOD was a poor defender when he started out. Earls can still learn (although it comes more naturally to Cave notwithstanding his howler at the end of the game) and I hope that he does.

The biggest difference in defending in the 2nd test was that BOD was defending at 13 and making the call as to when to shoot out and kill a move. He may be the best in the world at doing it and the rest of the backline take their defensive lead off him. I doubt that there was any real change in defensive patterns but with him leading the line it was much more aggressive.

thebaz

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Wow, that's careless from McGloughlin

it is careless , and I despise gouging , but doent look anyway intentional , hes trying to rid mccaw , and grabs him , not intentinally near the eye, he couldnt see from that angle - certainly does not look what I would deem a gouge - a deliberate poke in the eye , which is both dangerous and cowardly

Fishooks12

thebaz wrote: »

it is careless , and I despise gouging , but doent look anyway intentional , hes trying to rid mccaw , and grabs him , not intentinally near the eye, he couldnt see from that angle - certainly does not look what I would deem a gouge - a deliberate poke in the eye , which is both dangerous and cowardly

Wasn't saying he did it on purpose but if you put your hands in that area you're asking for trouble. He's a lucky boy