Ireland Tour to New Zealand 2012 Discussion thread

Maaa!

Sounding like a whinger I know but Owens really did contribute to us losing on Sat. I could live with 1 or 2 decisions going against us (refs are fallible) but 4 f***k ups in a row in the last 2 mins of the game does make a difference:
1. No penalising Weepu for slow put in to scrum
2. Franks clearly drops bind, Caine not bound, scrum wheeled not 'run around'
3. Knock on in play by ABs leading up to drop goal, right under Owens nose!
4. I personally think (after several slow motion replays) that Carters 1st drop attempt did not touch an Irish hand
Sour grapes is one thing but it is hard to take when ABs tend to get home town decisions. To be fair I think we should have been masters of our own destiny and made a winning effort, penno, drop or try off our own steam. Terrible to see BOD so crestfallen at the end. He deserves better after his career. Just hope they can find something this week but I fear the ABs will tear into us.
On the team, ROG fine at the end of the game when things have opened up. You play your best 10 at 10, i.e. Sexton. Grudgingly Wallace will probably play but I prefer Earls. I don't think either of them have any less defensive frailties than the other. Locky, SOB and POM in the back row. Henry to come on. Murray to start again, Reds to up tempo if we are still alive later in the match. Heres hoping!

Klunk_NZ

Maaa! wrote: »

Sounding like a whinger I know but Owens really did contribute to us losing on Sat. I could live with 1 or 2 decisions going against us (refs are fallible) but 4 f***k ups in a row in the last 2 mins of the game does make a difference:
1. No penalising Weepu for slow put in to scrum
The scrum fell apart meaning it was not stable enough to put in.
2. Franks clearly drops bind, Caine not bound, scrum wheeled not 'run around'
The scrum was wheeled illegally the back 5 were all crabbing sideways instead of pushing through the gate.
3. Knock on in play by ABs leading up to drop goal, right under Owens nose!
Vid pls
4. I personally think (after several slow motion replays) that Carters 1st drop attempt did not touch an Irish hand
Wow.... clear deflection, clear touch.

Sour Grapes
is one thing but it is hard to take when ABs tend to get home town decisions. To be fair I think we should have been masters of our own destiny and made a winning effort, penno, drop or try off our own steam. Terrible to see BOD so crestfallen at the end. He deserves better after his career. Just hope they can find something this week but I fear the ABs will tear into us.
On the team, ROG fine at the end of the game when things have opened up. You play your best 10 at 10, i.e. Sexton. Grudgingly Wallace will probably play but I prefer Earls. I don't think either of them have any less defensive frailties than the other. Locky, SOB and POM in the back row. Henry to come on. Murray to start again, Reds to up tempo if we are still alive later in the match. Heres hoping!

The luxury of two eyes....

Tomtom364

Klunk_NZ wrote: »

1. No penalising Weepu for slow put in to scrum
The scrum fell apart meaning it was not stable enough to put in.
2. Franks clearly drops bind, Caine not bound, scrum wheeled not 'run around'
The scrum was wheeled illegally the back 5 were all crabbing sideways instead of pushing through the gate.
3. Knock on in play by ABs leading up to drop goal, right under Owens nose!
Vid pls
4. I personally think (after several slow motion replays) that Carters 1st drop attempt did not touch an Irish hand
Wow.... clear deflection, clear touch.

1. Still inconsistant, pinged Murray faster in previous occasions, including 1 occasions where the props elbows were blocking the tunnel, also, penalized Murray without any warnings where as gave a warning here.

2. Not a scrum expect so ill stay out.

3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=tuXY22N29ug#t=6166s
I thought it was knocked on when I watched it live.
Watching it back now I still think the same. When the ball comes out like that refs always call it as lost forward.

4. Agreed the ball was touched.

Monty Burnz

Klunk_NZ wrote: »

The luxury of two eyes....

If the scrum was wheeled (and I think that's highly debatable) it happened after Franks lost his bind.

The rest of it looks fine to me, aside from the knock-on in the ruck - how did it ping forward if not out of the hands of an AB? Probably merits a closer look.

Klunk_NZ

Monty Burnz wrote: »

If the scrum was wheeled (and I think that's highly debatable) it happened after Franks lost his bind.

The rest of it looks fine to me, aside from the knock-on in the ruck - how did it ping forward if not out of the hands of an AB? Probably merits a closer look.

Even on replay I couldn't see it move forward off a hand. No way in hell that could have been picked up live by a ref without him just guessing.


In reality, missing a yellow/red card for a suspected gouge attempt is more crucial than all of those since it would have gifted a penalty to the AB's and avoided the first try of the Irish.

Tomtom364

Klunk_NZ wrote: »

Even on replay I couldn't see it move forward off a hand. No way in hell that could have been picked up live by a ref without him just guessing.


In reality, missing a yellow/red card for a suspected gouge attempt is more crucial than all of those since it would have gifted a penalty to the AB's and avoided the first try of the Irish.

In that type of situation refs usually, if not always give it as forward off the team in possession.

Considering there has been no citing (which is hindsight of professionals, better then us to judge) raised with that incident its fair to say that Owens didnt give a penalty there because there wasnt one to be given.

Beery Eyed

Tomtom364 wrote: »

1. Still inconsistant, pinged Murray faster in previous occasions, including 1 occasions where the props elbows were blocking the tunnel, also, penalized Murray without any warnings where as gave a warning here.

2. Not a scrum expect so ill stay out.

3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=tuXY22N29ug#t=6166s
I thought it was knocked on when I watched it live.
Watching it back now I still think the same. When the ball comes out like that refs always call it as lost forward.

4. Agreed the ball was touched.

Since we're delving into this territory, it's also worth noting that a significant call was made by the assistant to award the scrum in the first place. On 74minutes the pass from Reddan to Ross goes to ground. Owens calls 'back' but his assistant (Poite I believe) contradicts him & insists it went forward. It looked dubious at the time & having seen it again a few times I still think Owens had it right originally. The ball goes to ground, certainly, but it looks to be dropped backwards. A close call, but Owens was in a great position & called it correctly to begin with.

Of all the calls that were made from then on, I kept thinking about this one as the starting point. A small issue but one that undoubtedly changed the momentum at the time. Even the commentators at that point were saying we looked like the only team likely to score and we were on their 22 building pressure. Anyhow, the rest, as they say, is history...

Klunk_NZ

Tomtom364 wrote: »

In that type of situation refs usually, if not always give it as forward off the team in possession.

Considering there has been no citing (which is hindsight of professionals, better then us to judge) raised with that incident its fair to say that Owens didnt give a penalty there because there wasnt one to be given.

By that logic you questioning professional referees has been completely voided. (considering he still defends himself illiterately on twitter)

Monty Burnz

Klunk_NZ wrote: »

Even on replay I couldn't see it move forward off a hand. No way in hell that could have been picked up live by a ref without him just guessing.

But an AB took the ball in, so it could only have spilled out of his possession - no guessing required.

Klunk_NZ wrote: »

In reality, missing a yellow/red card for a suspected gouge attempt is more crucial than all of those since it would have gifted a penalty to the AB's and avoided the first try of the Irish.

Indeed. This is purely an academic exercise as far as I'm concerned, as a single different interpretation at any stage would change everything afterwards.

Maaa!

1. Weepu had a at least 2 secs (more than Murray got!) to put the ball in before it started collapsing. Loosehead prop had hand on ground anyway which Poite should have spotted.
2. I certainly don't claim to understand the black arts but to me Irl began to wheel scrum legitimately, Franks immediately lost his bind, Caine disengaged from the scrum and only then did Irl 'run around'. Reset for Irl or at best a penno to Irl. Momentum of the game swung on this single moment.
3. As other subs have said when the ball squirts out of a ruck after being carried in by attacking team logic would suggest it was knocked on. Most refs would call that.
4. I still think touch on drop is open to debate but I'm happy to go with general opinion.
Agree with other sub, looked like Ross did not drop forward but very marginal and could have gone either way, as shown by Owens thinking it was ok and Poite calling knock on.
As has been said throughout, its just consistency we want. I'm over it and I hope they can bring it on this Sat.

Klunk_NZ

You've had 107 years of consistency :P

Klunk_NZ

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Cian Healy apparently escaping notice somehow despite a huge number of tackles, plenty of carries, and holding his own/driving back the AB scrum for 80 minutes.

Interesting stuff though. It's fascinating getting an insight into the NZ rugby 'mind'.

A prop didn't win the popularity competition?
What is this madness?

Monty Burnz

Klunk_NZ wrote: »

A prop didn't win the popularity competition?
What is this madness?

:pac:

Gd194

any thoughts for this weekends team vs nz since heaslip nd darcy are out?
i was thinking

1. cian healy
2. rory best
3. mike ross
4.dan touhy
5.donnacha ryan
6.mcloughlan
7.sean o'brien
8. peter o mahony
9. conor murray
10. ronan o' gara
11.zebo
12.sexton
13. drico
14.fergus mcfadden
15. kearney

sydthebeat

not a chance in hell of o gara starting with sexton at 12.

Monty Burnz

Apropos of nothing in particular, two years ago a 19 year old Rhys Ruddock was playing against the ABs in the back row. Now he isn't even in the touring squad, and not even a regular for a full-strength Leinster. What the hell was he doing out there last time?

irishbucsfan

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Apropos of nothing in particular, two years ago a 19 year old Rhys Ruddock was playing against the ABs in the back row. Now he isn't even in the touring squad, and not even a regular for a full-strength Leinster. What the hell was he doing out there last time?

Nobody else was fit

WeeBushy

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Apropos of nothing in particular, two years ago a 19 year old Rhys Ruddock was playing against the ABs in the back row. Now he isn't even in the touring squad, and not even a regular for a full-strength Leinster. What the hell was he doing out there last time?

He played against Aus, no?

We had a raft of injuries in the back row, he was a terribly exciting prospect and was still eligible for Wales so that tied him down.

dregin

McFadden to 12 and Zebo on the wing.

Madigan migrating north with the flying pigs.

Quint2010

Gd194 wrote: »

any thoughts for this weekends team vs nz since heaslip nd darcy are out?
i was thinking

1. cian healy
2. rory best
3. mike ross
4.dan touhy
5.donnacha ryan
6.mcloughlan
7.sean o'brien
8. peter o mahony
9. conor murray
10. ronan o' gara
11.zebo
12.sexton
13. drico
14.fergus mcfadden
15. kearney

I would like to see the above team except with Trimble on the left wing. I think Deccie will go with the first test centre partnership though. He likes Earls at 13.

totallegend

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Apropos of nothing in particular, two years ago a 19 year old Rhys Ruddock was playing against the ABs in the back row. Now he isn't even in the touring squad, and not even a regular for a full-strength Leinster. What the hell was he doing out there last time?

Heaslip got suspended and Muldoon broke his arm, there was no-one else available and Ruddock at least was match fit having been with the u20 world cup side.

He is a very good player but I sometimes wonder did he look better at U20 level because he was a massive specimen at that age? Either way, with Jennings, Heaslip, O'Brien and McLoughlin ahead of him at Leinster, his chances have been limited enough but he'll come good.

Podge_irl

He was also already down south I think with the U20s so no travel issues. He's a good player. Very much a 6 and not an 8 though.

irishbucsfan

Podge_irl wrote: »

He was also already down south I think with the U20s so no travel issues. He's a good player. Very much a 6 and not an 8 though.

He was in Argentina I think! Flight is about 14 hours going on past experience!

I think it was moreso the lack of other options combined with the national qualification issue. He was also more physically ready for it than a lot of players who were well older than him.


I think he's a good 6 but possibly too slow and not athletic enough to ever be first choice out of Leinsters depth coming through.

Luckycharm

Podge_irl wrote: »

He was also already down south I think with the U20s so no travel issues. He's a good player. Very much a 6 and not an 8 though.

What are you talking about he is South Africa which is nearly an 15 hour flight away plus 7/8 hour time zone difference

shaungil

Luckycharm wrote: »

What are you talking about he is South Africa which is nearly an 15 hour flight away plus 7/8 hour time zone difference

Think he was in Argentina at the U20 Wc when called up

Podge_irl

Ignore me so!

Luckycharm

shaungil wrote: »

Think he was in Argentina at the U20 Wc when called up

It is a 13hr flight to NZ (is there direct flights) from Argentina plus great time diff if not mistaken. It is kind of like saying sure he is up North when he is infact in Japan :P

durkadurka

The key thing was to cap him and lock him down for Ireland.

RoundBox11

I wonder will we see any rotation in the all blacks squad for this weekend. It's quite ironic that we've rotated more than them so far :P, albeit largely due to necessity. I'd like to see Cruden start from an Irish standpoint.

It will be interesting to see who wins the battle of the backrows this weekend. Personally i think we have the edge. I haven't heard anything about Veto returning and i don't think much of Thomson at all. McCaw is the only one i'd have concerns about. However without Ferris and Heaslip.... although O'Brien has been outstanding so far and McLaughlin was very good last weekend. I'd give the backrow edge to us..... Infact id say our whole pack have the egde really, even without POC, Ferris and Heaslip.
If Smith and Cruden play together and we dominate up front I think we could put serious pressure on the allblacks.... Jesus never thought i'd say that.

I wouldn't usually place any emphasis on emotions of the players heading into a match, but given the scale of the match for BOD (and to a lesser extent DOC, Reddan and Ross), i think they will be 100% up for it like last week.

I almost slept in last week and missed the match, i'll definitely be glued to it this weekend!!

unplayable

ireland ftw this weekend.