Bob Dylan v Rappers who think they are poets.

cloptrop

It really gets my goat when people compare rappers with bob dylan for lyrics . Maybe it shouldnt . Nas seems to be the one everyone is preaching about , tupac before him . Im gonna use a bob dylan song that shows hardship as an example because this is a widely used category in rap music .
This is an example of using perfect words to paint a picture , the last few lines are genius but the whole song is really . Its a song bout a farmer having a rough time shooting his wife and family .
Has anyone got a rap song that comes close to it.

Hollis Brown
He lived on the outside of town
Hollis Brown
He lived on the outside of town
With his wife and five children
And his cabin brokin' down.

You looked for work and money
And you walked a rugged mile
You looked for work and money
And you walked a rugged mile
Your children are so hungry
That they don't know how to smile.

Your baby's eyes look crazy
They're a-tuggin' at your sleeve
Your baby's eyes look crazy
They're a-tuggin' at your sleeve
You walk the floor and wonder why
With every breath you breathe.

The rats have got your flour
Bad blood it got your mare
The rats have got your flour
Bad blood it got your mare
If there's anyone that knows
Is there anyone that cares ?

You prayed to the Lord above
Oh please send you a friend
You prayed to the Lord above
Oh please send you a friend
Your empty pocket tell you
That you ain't a-got no friend.

Your babies are crying louder now
It's pounding on your brain
Your babies are crying louder now
[- From: http://www.elyrics.net/read/b/bob-dylan-lyrics/ballad-of-hollis-brown-lyrics.html -]
It's pounding on your brain
Your wife's screams are stabbin' you
Like the dirty drivin' rain.

Your grass is turning black
There's no water in your well
Your grass is turning black
There's no water in your well
Your spent your last lone dollar
On seven shotgun shels.

Way out in the wilderness
A cold coyote calls
Way out in the wilderness
A cold coyote calls
Your eyes fix on the shortgun
That's hangin' on the wall.

Your brain is a-bleedin'
And your legs can't seem to stand
Your brain is a-bleedin'
And your legs can't seem to stand
Your eyes fix on the shortgun
That you're holdin' in your hand.

There's seven breezes a-blowin'
All around the cabin door
There's seven breezes a-blowin'
All around the cabin door
Seven shots ring out
Like the ocean's pounding roar.

There's seven people dead
On a south Dakota farm
There's seven people dead
On a south Dakota farm
Somewhere in the distance
There's seven new people born.

henryporter

His grandson is a rapper!

Seriously though, I think each generation has something to offer including rappers who's musical style is effectively an extension of Dylan's. I think your respect for Dylan is clouding your judgement a bit. Remember he also wrote:

"All the tired horses in the sun; how'm I gonna get any riding done"

MagicMarker

cloptrop

henryporter wrote: »

His grandson is a rapper!

Seriously though, I think each generation has something to offer including rappers who's musical style is effectively an extension of Dylan's. I think your respect for Dylan is clouding your judgement a bit. Remember he also wrote:

"All the tired horses in the sun; how'm I gonna get any riding done"

Wasnt self portrait intentionally unpoetic because he was pissed off with a new generation of kids calling him the voice of a generation. Thats the story to it as far as I remember.

mathepac

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/personal-view/3642416/Bob-Dylan-is-a-genius-but-hes-no-poet.html

OK, it's 5 years old now but (for a change) I agree with a lot of what this guy says in the article. One point where he does a big ooops in my view is where he talks about "typographical gimmicks". This is based (apparently) on his assumption that poetry is meant to be read. That's fine as far as it goes, but at a reading the "typographical gimmicks" will go unnoticed by the audience (unless of course they have a text which kinda defeats the purpose of being at a reading IMHO).

If you want a poet / singer / songwriter / performer / recording artist to contrast rappers with, why not Leonard Cohen? Recognised, published and acclaimed as poet before he ever made a record, the man's lyrics are magical. True he uses naughty words from time to time but they seem to work in the context of that particular piece of work, whereas rappers' seem to specialise in strings of pointless invective against women, police, "the man", etc.

Have a look sometime at Woody Guthrie's work (and Arlo Guthrie his son); the two lads, Bob and Len, mined the rich vein of folksy stuff he uncovered and popularised; in fact Bob's early stuff owes more to Woody and the Clancy Brothers and Tommy Makem than Bobby Boy ever let on initially. Later in life he acknowledged his debt.

Should be an interesting thread if the trolls stay away.

D'Agger

Comparing Dylan to Rappers and vice versa is a foolish exercise imo

cloptrop

PaulieC wrote: »

Comparing Dylan to Rappers and vice versa is a foolish exercise imo

But rap fans will tell you rappers are modern day poets as good as dylan and the likes. I just wanted a poetic example of rap music , I doubt I will get anything from any rappers who have sold more than a thousand albums that is of much substance , but Im open to being proved wrong.

Legwinski

cloptrop wrote: »

But rap fans will tell you rappers are modern day poets as good as dylan and the likes. I just wanted a poetic example of rap music , I doubt I will get anything from any rappers who have sold more than a thousand albums that is of much substance , but Im open to being proved wrong.

Some of stuff on Def Poetry isn't bad (more of it is )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=le1kHp5lLmk

Doubt too many would say rappers are better poets than Bob Dylan but they could definitely prefer them or find them more powerful on a personal level.

cloptrop

Aha Shake wrote: »

Some of stuff on Def Poetry isn't bad (more of it is )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=le1kHp5lLmk

Doubt too many would say rappers are better poets than Bob Dylan but they could definitely prefer them or find them more powerful on a personal level.

Are you serious dude?
Anyhu could people just post the lyrics rather than the videos , we are speaking of the power of the words .

EdenHazard

Look up Eyedea's Message in a Bottle. About a talented violinist who is sexually abused! The dudes a poet, well was he dead now

ceegee

A few examples of the top of my head :

1 Jay Z & Eminem - Renegade.
(Not entirely sure what the copyright rules are for putting the full song up so have just included the verses)

[Jay-Z: Verse]
Mother****ers say that I'm foolish, I only talk about jewels
Do you fools listen to music or do you just skim through it?
See I'm influenced by the ghetto you ruined
That same dude you gave nothing, I made something doing
What I do, through and through and I gave you the news with a twist it's just his ghetto point of view
The renegade you been afraid
You penetrate pop culture, bring 'em a lot closer to the block where they
pop toasters, and they live with they mums
Got dropped roasters, from botched robberies niggas crotched over
Mummy's knocked up cause she wasn't watched over
Knocked down by some clown when child support knocked
No he's not around now how that sound to ya, jot it down
I'll bring you through the ghetto without ridin round
hiding down duckin strays from frustrated youths stuck in they ways
Just read a magazine that ****ed up my day
How you rate music that thugs with nothing relate to it?
I help them see they way through it, not you.
Can't step in my pants, can't walk in my shoes
Bet everything you worth; you lose your tie and your shirt.

[Eminem: Verse]
Since I'm in a position to talk to these kids and they listen
I ain't no politician but I'll kick it with em a minute
Cause see they call me a menace and if the shoe fits I'll wear it
But if it don't, then ya'll swallow the truth grin and bear it
Now who's the king of these rude ludicrous lucrative lyrics
Who could inherit the title, put the youth in hysterics
Using his music to steer it sharing his views in his marriage
But there's a huge interference they're sayin you shouldn't hear it
Maybe it's hatred I spew, maybe it's food for the spirit
Maybe it's beautiful music I made for you to just cherish
But I'm debated disputed hated and viewed in America
as a mother****in drug addict like you didn't experiment?
Now now, that's when you start to stare at who's in the mirror
and see yourself as a kid again, and you get embarrassed
And I got nothing to do but make you look stupid as parents
You ****in do-gooders - too bad you couldn't DO-GOOD at marriage!
And do you have any clue what I had to do to get here I don't
think you do so stay tuned and keep your ears glued to the stereo
Cause here we go, he's {Jigga durra Jigga da chk Jigga}
And I'm the sinister, Mr. Kiss-My-Ass it's just the..

[Eminem + Jay-Z - Chorus]
[Eminem]


[Jay-Z: Verse]
I had to hustle, my back to the wall, ashy knuckles
Pockets filled with a lot of lint, not a cent
Gotta vent, lot of innocent of lives lost on the project bench
What you hollarin? Gotta pay rent, bring dollars in
By the bodega, iron under my coat, feelin braver
Doo-rag wrappin my waves up, pockets full of hope
Do not step to me I'm awkward, I box leftier often
My pops left me an orphan, my momma wasn't home
Could not stress to me I wasn't growin, specially on nights
I brought something home to quiet the stomach rumblings
My demeanor thirty years my senior
My childhood didn't mean much, only raisin greener
Raisin my fingers to critics raisin my head to the sky
Big I did it multi(i) before I die (nigga)
No lie, just know I chose my own fate
I drove by the fork in the road and went straight.

[Eminem: Verse]
See I'm a poet to some, a regular modern day Shakespeare
Jesus Christ the King of these Latter Day Saints here
To shatter the picture in which of that as they paint me
as a mother of hate, Satan and scatter-brained atheist
But that ain't the case, see it's a matter of taste
We as a people decide if Shady's as bad as they say he is
Or is he the ladder, a gateway to escape?
Media scapegoat, they can be mad at today
See it's as easy as cake, simple as whistling Dixie
while I'm wavin the pistol at sixty Christians against me
Go to war with the Mormons, take a bath with the Catholics
in holy water no wonder they try to hold me under longer
I'm a mother****in spiteful, delightful eyeful
The new Ice Cube, mother****ers hate to like you
What did I do? (huh) I'm just a kid from the gutter
makin this butter off these bloodsuckers, cause I'm a muh'****in

[Eminem + Jay-Z - Chorus]



2 Lupe Fiasco - American Terrorist

Close your mind
close your eyes
see with your heart
how do you forgive the murderer of your father?
the ink of a scholar is worth a thousand times more than the blood of a martyr

we came through the storm nooses on our necks
and a smallpox blanket to keep us warm
on a 747 on the pentagon lawn
wake up the alarm clock is connected to a bomb
anthrax lab on a w. Virginia farm
shorty ain't learned to walk already heavily armed
civilians and little children is especially harmed
camouflaged Torahs, Bibles and glorious qurans
the books that take you to heaven and let you meet the Lord there
have become misinterpreted, reasons for warfare
we read 'em with blind eyes I guarantee you there's more there
the rich must be blind because they didn't see the poor there
need to open up a park, just close 10 schools
we don't need 'em
can you please call the fire department they're down here marching for freedom
burn down their TV's, turn their TV's on to teach 'em


now the poor klu klux man see that we're all brothers not because things are the same because we lack the same
color that's green, now that's mean
cant burn his cross cause he can't afford the gasoline
now if a Muslim woman strapped with a bomb on a bus
with the seconds running give you the jitters?
just imagine an American-based Christian organization planning to poison water supplies to bring the second-coming quicker
nigga they ain't living properly
break 'em off a little democracy
turn their whole culture to a mockery
give 'em Coca-Cola for their property
give 'em gum, give 'em guns, get 'em young, give 'em fun
if they ain't giving it up, then they ain't getting none and don't give 'em all naw, man, just give 'em some its
the paper, some of these cops must be al-qaeda


It's like
don't give the black man food, give red man liquor
red man fool, black man nigga
give yellow man tool, make him railroad builder
also give him pan, make him pull gold from river give black man crack, glocks and things, give red man
craps, slot machines...

ceegee

3 Hilltop Hoods - Stopping All Stations


Early morn, train station, aching from the arthritis,
This war veteran knows what a hard time is,
He needs his pension, dementia and half blind is,
The reason he rides the train with no car license,
So he boards with an expired ticket has a swipe,
Gets a fine cos the change he got don’t add up right,
We’re taking about a man who never lived a lavish life,
Caught up in the age of computer chips and satellites,
A lovely lady boards looking tired and half awake,
He smiles, she’s reminds him of his wife that passed away,
She says something as she walks right past his way,
His old hearing aid don’t last quite half a day,
Some young gentlemen alive with their laughter,
Approach the old timer and put a knife to his heart to,
Explain that money or bloods the price of their barter,
To a man whose friends probably died for their fathers.


Whatever it takes can justify,
Whatever ends we make, whatever the price,
To the end of a life, it’s just an observation,
So take a ride we’re stopping all stations.


It’s been a long night the suns lifting on a cold,
Morning but she’s drugged and drunk tripping on her stroll,
On the way home, she’s done with stripping on a pole,
But she can’t pay for her son living on the dole,
Jumps a train puts on her gloves she’s wearing black,
Being watched by some old mug she’s glaring back,
She’s on edge and got the bug from sharing smack,
So she says, “Hey, what the **** you staring at?”
He smiles, an unsteady hand rubs on his dome,
She takes a seat, a messy band of ruffs board alone,
To the digger with a machete at his lungs and he’s prone,
He can barely stand but ready to stand up for his own,
She tries to help him, she doesn’t choose to flee the car,
And catches a blow with enough bruise to leave a scar,
She starts fainting, the rooms moving and seeing stars,
Aint it amazing how courageous human beings are?


Whatever it takes can justify,
Whatever ends we make, whatever the price,
To the end of a life, it’s just an observation,
So take a ride we’re stopping all stations.


He knows nothing but toil, strife and hard yakka,
Pissed at the world for playing wife in a slammer,
This man was never given a life on a damn platter,
So he jumps a train with knife and bandanna,
Boys at his back, sleazy, hardened and far,
From giving a ****, an easy target his mark,
He sees an old man and says “See we’ll part with your hard,
Earned cash or rest in peace we can start with your heart.”
Some girl steps not afraid she’s gonna cop it sweet,
And gets decked before she made it even on her feet,
The old man leaped to her aid and to his horror he’d,
Thrusted his chest into the blade of his robber’s piece,
He grabbed the wallet, dropped the knife as he fled the car,
Concerned about the loss of life he’d never went this far,
What’s done is done, he’d got the prize and he’d spent his half,
Of two dollars in change and a pension card.






[Alternate third verse - from Hardroad Restrung album]

He knows nothing but hard work and scraping by,
Looking for a purse or wallet so he can make a buy,
He hasn’t been on the nod since this morning,
He needs to touch the face of god, his skin is just crawling,
These peeps are sheep, time to fleece the market,
Jumps a train with some friends, sees an easy target,
An old man hard hit by age, fainthearted,
The kid pulls a knife, like let’s get started,
A girl steps he’s like eat the carpet,
Laughs with his friend like she’s retarded,
The old man stepped and swept the assailant,
Off his feet, his head connected with the railing,
You’re weak the old man said as the kid lay recovering,
Blubbering, “Get to your feet I’ll tell you another thing,
A real man never lays his hands on a woman,
A real man would know that, no surprise that you wouldn’t,
I didn’t fight in two wars just so forty years later,
You’d have the freedom to rob me on the train this behaviour,
Doesn’t fit with what I gave this country so cut me,
Won’t live another day in a world that’s so ugly.”

mathepac

http://www.songmeanings.net/songs/view/3530822107858514769/#comment (can't copy and paste due to copyright restrictions)

I've picked one of Cohen's older songs here. Chelsea Hotel #2 is about his supposedly secret affair with Janis Joplin, one of the great short-lived, female hedonists of the 60's.

Not the prettiest of rock singers, Joplin was voted "The Man most likely to succeed" in her final high-school year and launched herself on the world doing everything to excess before her untimely death aged 28 or so. She drank, drugged, had sex with men and women, engaged in orgies with her band-members (Big Brother and the Holding Company) audience members, etc. She was a wild wild woman in every sense of the word.

Cohen was her male half, who at the time depicted in the song seemed destined to have sex with every woman on the planet as often as possible.

I'm not sure if Janis was dead when the song was written. If she was then Cohen (for me) comes across as a heartless bastard using Janis as hundreds had used her before, exploiting her vulnerability. If she wasn't dead than maybe Cohen is being prophetic about her future.

The comments on that link will fill in some of the rest of the background to the song and its time and place, probably better than me.

D'Agger

cloptrop wrote: »

But rap fans will tell you rappers are modern day poets as good as dylan and the likes. I just wanted a poetic example of rap music , I doubt I will get anything from any rappers who have sold more than a thousand albums that is of much substance , but Im open to being proved wrong.

To be fair the use of the word 'poet' here is annoying me somewhat, i would say that lupe fiasco, eminem and multiple other artists are fantastic lyracists - so is Dylan, none of them are poets.

And tbh i know plenty of rap and music lovers who don't refer to musicians as poets

nyarlothothep

ICE T wrote some great lyrics back in the day.

cianisgood

would bob dylan consider himself a poet

smokedeels

Why Rap ahead of any other genre and why a select group of rappers?

HalloweenJack

Rap read as poetry:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tT-RGY6pYsk

I think, of modern music, rap is most comparable to poetry as rappers fit so much more into their lyrics then any other musicians out there.

Yeah, there are some rappers who just rap about nonsense stuff. Generalising all rappers with this label is like saying all rock singers are like Mike Love from The Beach Boys and only sing about surfing and hot girls (not having a go at The Beach Boys, I actually like them a lot, just making a point).

Songs like this make great points and that's comparable to what Bob Dylan does:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9jlDz25-ME

Da Shins Kelly

You might think Bob Dylan is the greatest, but art is subjective. Hip hop is as close as it comes to poetry. A lot of hip hop songs start out as poems that become songs, and technically it is just spoken word put to music. Nas is an incredible lyricist. His Illmatic album (which was released when he was 19) is a credit to the genre and to music in general. It goes beyond the realms of hip hop really, and anyone who really appreciates the written word will be able to realise how great that album actually is. His ability to create the atmosphere of New York City and so clearly describe his own life and environment there on the album from Genesis (his own beginnings as a rapper, and the beginnings of hip hop on the streets) through to It Ain't Hard To Tell (braggadocio combined with intellect) is amazing really. His ability to paint such vivid pictures for the listener is really unparalleled in hip hop, and I've heard very few other artists who have been such skilled writers.

He can depict the grim reality of street life in New York in N.Y State of Mind (which is one of only a few hip hop songs to be included in the Norton Anthology of African American Literature, by the by) so, so well. This song alone is just an incredible piece of writing:

'It's like the game ain't the same
Got younger niggas pullin' the triggers bringing fame to they name
and claim some corners, crews without guns are goners
In broad daylight, stickup kids, they run up on us
Fo'-fives and gauges, Macs in fact
Same niggas'll catch a back to back, snatchin' yo' cracks in black
There was a snitch on the block gettin niggas knocked
So hold your stash until the coke price drop
I know this crackhead, who said she gotta smoke nice rock
And if it's good she'll bring ya customers in measuring pots, but yo
You gotta slide on a vacation
Inside information keeps large niggas erasin' and they wives basin'
It drops deep as it does in my breath
I never sleep, cause sleep is the cousin of death
Beyond the walls of intelligence, life is defined
I think of crime when I'm in a New York state of mind'

The song has a sad sense of resignation to the life he lives, that this is the way it has to be. Life is described as being 'parallel to Hell', but he must 'maintain' and 'be prosperous though we live dangerous'. It's a very vivid description of real life for people who grew up in the circumstances Nas grew up in. It has the right mixture of truth and effective hyperbole, as well as great uses of alliteration ('it drops deep as it does in my breath') and similes ('sleep is the cousin of death', 'my rhymin' like a vitamin, Hell without a capsule). It's all pretty technical when you break it down. I could write an essay on this song.

He is a master of incredible metaphors and similes really, with brilliant lines like (from Halftime):
'You couldn't catch me in the streets without a ton of reefer
That's like Malcolm X catchin' the jungle fever'

Or from It Ain't Hard To Tell, possibly one of the greatest lines I've heard in a song:
'I drank Moet with Medusa, gave her shotguns in Hell,
From the spliff that I lift and inhale, in ain't hard to tell'

As in, Medusa the Greek monster who famously turned people to stone - Nas is flipping the situation by saying that instead of her turning him to stone, he gets her drunk and gives her shotguns (blowing smoke into someone else's mouth) and instead gets her stoned. It's such a brilliantly clever line, one the best moments on the entire record for me.

Life's A Bitch is arguably one of the saddest hip hop songs ever recorded. The first verse (written and performed by AZ) is one of the greatest stand alone verses out there:
'Visualizin' the realism of life and actuality
**** who's the baddest, a person's status depends on salary
And my mentality is money orientated
I'm destined to live the dream for all my peeps who never made it
cause yeah, we were beginners in the hood as five percenters
But somethin' must of got in us cause all of us turned to sinners
Now some restin' in peace and some are sittin' in San Quentin
Others such as myself are tryin to carry on tradition
Keepin the schwepervesence street ghetto essence inside us
Cause it provides us with the proper insight to guide us
Even though, we know somehow we all gotta go
but as long as we leavin' thievin' we'll be leavin' with some kind of dough
so, and to that day we expire and turn to vapors
me and my capers will be somewhere stackin' plenty papers
Keepin' it real, packin' steel, gettin' high
Cause life's a bitch and then you die'

Technically the use of assonance to create internal rhyming is really great, also the standard of vocabulary is pretty impressive. That aside, the melancholic, wistful atmosphere is captured pretty much perfectly. It's actually a really beautiful song.

This isn't nearly all of what I could say on this topic (I'm currently getting stuff together to do a fairly substantial research project on this album), suffice to say that I do think that hip hop lyrics can be engaged with as literature in much the same way as Bob Dylan lyrics can be. As hip hop is relying predominantly on lyrics, the ability to write poetically is really of utmost importance to anyone who wants to be taken seriously as a hip hop artist, and the best hip hop artists have an incredible grasp of language and poetic techniques. It is only when you break these songs down and pick the words apart that you actually realise how detailed, subtle and just downright clever the writing is. And most importantly, the best hip hop lyrics come from a real place which is central to any emotive and poetic writing (in my opinion). But then, like I said, art is subjective. I will never enjoy John Keats as a poet, but I'm not going to question his abilities as a poet. It's all in the eye (and ear) of the reader.

I could talk about this all day, but I won't. Sorry for the length!

cloptrop

EdenHazard wrote: »

Look up Eyedea's Message in a Bottle. About a talented violinist who is sexually abused! The dudes a poet, well was he dead now

Read through this , its a good story but hardly poetry. A short story that ryhmes maybe. The same word being used to describe the father two or 3 times with no real reason or effect , just because he lacked a thesaurus. Nothing symbolizes anything that I noticed on a quick read through , you didnt get a feel for the place she lived in , a poet writing that probably would have just wrote something like.
"the house had a lake, girls suicide led to dad being detested.
She played violin, he molested."

A poet wouldnt need 4 or 5 verses a chorus and stings song with the words changed to get what this fella gets across , Im working through the rest of the quotes on here.

cloptrop

ceegee wrote: »

A few examples of the top of my head :

1 Jay Z & Eminem - Renegade.
(Not entirely sure what the copyright rules are for putting the full song up so have just included the verses)

[Jay-Z: Verse]
Mother****ers say that I'm foolish, A LONG RAP ABOUT THE RAP HE IS COULD TELL US BUT WOULD RATHER RAP ABOUT HOW GOOD HIS RAP IS , PRETTY MUCH MASTERBATION WITH A PEN. ...

2 Lupe Fiasco - American Terrorist

Close your mind
close your eyes
see with your heart
how do you forgive the murderer of your father?
the ink of a scholar is worth a thousand times more than the blood of a martyr

we came through the storm nooses on our necks
and a smallpox blanket to keep us warm
on a 747 on the pentagon lawn
wake up the alarm clock is connected to a bomb
anthrax lab on a w. Virginia farm
shorty ain't learned to walk already heavily armed
civilians and little children is especially harmed
camouflaged Torahs, Bibles and glorious qurans
the books that take you to heaven and let you meet the Lord there
have become misinterpreted, reasons for warfare
we read 'em with blind eyes I guarantee you there's more there
the rich must be blind because they didn't see the poor there
need to open up a park, just close 10 schools
we don't need 'em
can you please call the fire department they're down here marching for freedom
burn down their TV's, turn their TV's on to teach 'em


now the poor klu klux man see that we're all brothers not because things are the same because we lack the same
color that's green, now that's mean
cant burn his cross cause he can't afford the gasoline
now if a Muslim woman strapped with a bomb on a bus
with the seconds running give you the jitters?
just imagine an American-based Christian organization planning to poison water supplies to bring the second-coming quicker
nigga they ain't living properly
break 'em off a little democracy
turn their whole culture to a mockery
give 'em Coca-Cola for their property
give 'em gum, give 'em guns, get 'em young, give 'em fun
if they ain't giving it up, then they ain't getting none and don't give 'em all naw, man, just give 'em some its
the paper, some of these cops must be al-qaeda


It's like
don't give the black man food, give red man liquor
red man fool, black man nigga
give yellow man tool, make him railroad builder
also give him pan, make him pull gold from river give black man crack, glocks and things, give red man
craps, slot machines.

This fella is good now Ill givem that , at least he has a message other than how great he is followed by 50 different ways in which he could beat my ass ,

Irish Guitarist

Bob Dylan was (and probably still is) a friend of rapper Kurtis Blow and appeared on his song Street Rock in 1986. Kurtis Blow also introduced him to the music of NWA and Ice T as well as other rappers.

http://30daysout.wordpress.com/2008/06/19/rock-moment-kurtis-n-bob-1986/

cloptrop

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

Bob Dylan was (and probably still is) a friend of rapper Kurtis Blow and appeared on his song Street Rock in 1986. Kurtis Blow also introduced him to the music of NWA and Ice T as well as other rappers.

http://30daysout.wordpress.com/2008/06/19/rock-moment-kurtis-n-bob-1986/[/QUOTE]

I hope he got paid alot for that appearance.

rcaz

Sure wasn't Bob Dylan a rapper himself?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMIlP4zB0EM

Also, trying to evaluate how effective a rap is just by reading the lyrics as text is missing the point. You have to listen to it.

cloptrop wrote:

at least he has a message other than how great he is followed by 50 different ways in which he could beat my ass ,

Also missing the point is the whole 'they only talk about fighting and money' generalisation. Don't write off hip hop when you clearly haven't given it a proper chance.

cloptrop

rcaz wrote: »

Also missing the point is the whole 'they only talk about fighting and money' generalisation. Don't write off hip hop when you clearly haven't given it a proper chance.

I am giving it a chance that is the whole point of this thread, plus the reason its written and not the rap is because we are establishing whether its poetry or just lyrics ,
homesick blues has great imagery of the quirky charachters in his past life which makes him homesick and all the problems and excitement of it , then it gives his being a writer "hang round the inkwell" , and risking if you can actually make a living out of it or "join the army if you fail" showing its a profession that can leave you with little other opportunity , then he shows the boredom of living the make everyone happy and be straight life "20 years of schooling and they put you on the dayshift" and the stupid things that worry you " the pump dont work cause the vandals took the handle"

Just listening to the song once or twice you may miss all that and just hear "look out kid your gonna get hit " every few minutes .


Oh and my reason for the talking about the fighting beating my ass thing was the two quotes ceegee posted before the good one which I didnt quote properly because it was two massive quotes about beating my ass and how good his story writing is without writing a story or beating anyones ass.
Could have just said I will beat your ass and write a good story .

cloptrop

cianisgood wrote: »

would bob dylan consider himself a poet

From one of his rambling songs , he had a load of these

Now they asked me to read a poem
At the sorority sister's home
I got knocked down and my head was swimmin'
I wound up with the Dean of Women
Yippee ! I'm a poet, and I know it
Hope I don't blow it.

rcaz

But if you'd gone and properly listened to any decent hip hop you wouldn't have brought up the point I quoted there.

Here's some of my favourite stuff lately;

Blackalicious - Sleep. Actually a lot of kinda pastoral ideas in here, maybe in line with some ideas in romantic poetry. I don't know that much poetry, but if you wanted to compare the two, maybe think John Keats style;

The shining lights of stages after the show are faded
The crowd is gone away, and now the dawning day
Gives way to creatures lurking, can hear the crickets chirping
Only the owls can see for this is when they start their prey
The homeless ask for quarters for shelter and some water
Say "sorry not today" and turn and walk away
The busy street is empty whistling winds are blowing gently
Listening intently to all of the things they have to say
A day of work completed a night of rest is needed
Almost done read a book but eyelids to heavy to read it
The fireplace is kindling, snug with your queen and building
About the victories tomorrow's gonna bring your way

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i27ri_etWxU

Del Tha Funkee Homosapien - Hoodz Come In Dozens. Since we're comparing hip hop to Bob Dylan, think of this as a protest song. Del's rapping against the gang culture. He does some amazing stuff playing with rhymes, one of my favourite bits in this tune;

The ones with the Reebok pumps get their
rumps rearranged for their
change now they're
down in the dumps.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgPEsAJil-M

You were complaining about gangsta rap stuff, but give some of it a shot. The third verse in this tune is amazing, he does so much with one vowel sound;

Money, hoes and clothes
Blunt smoke comin' out the nose is all a nigga knows
Flippin' on foes, puttin' tags on toes
Watchin' the stash grow, clockin' the cashflow

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gccimMIyu6s

Another savage example of taking a handful of rhymes and doing a million different thing with them is the first verse of Eminem's Lose Yourself (I especially like how he had such a massive hit with really technical rapping, getting so popular without compromising any of his work. Same goes for The Way I Am, such a huge song with such vicious, angry rapping.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TADyXC2K0g

cloptrop

Da Shins Kelly

'I drank Moet with Medusa, gave her shotguns in Hell,

Alright theres a bit of something there, slight bit of wit , I so bad I get madame medusa stoned ,
I make medicine sick ,
I cut a scissors ,
I took the famines breakfast,
I gave aids an sti .

These type of things are nothing new , Ill hand it to him he makes a good one , I like the two uses of the Ms Moet Medusa , gives it a ring ,
You could stretch it out and say this is how his life was he was faced with a problems and he got through whatever faced him . I do like the line but the trouble is finding it in a big huge dragged out and overdone "it was tough growing up but I managed to get through it" subject matter.
Im not on here saying these dudes dont make a good song or write good lyrics , I just dont think they bring much to the table by means of poetry .
They arnt poets they are songwriters , and alot of the lyrics you can see are just put together because they ryme . Stuff like,

I like to kill nigga , finger on a trigger, cash flow gettin bigga , My homie J zee , I call him jigga ,

Then one one good line and he is a genius?
Paint the feelings of these street hustlers , tell me about the surroundings give me a picture of new york , not a random load of sequences involving people shooting each other and being tough and making money slanging dope ,and being poor when he is actuually making money slanging rap.

It read kinda like this , John doing it rough he is on crack , billy had to give his bitch a smack , bill sells cant get a job because he is black , Ill get rich I turn water to crack.

Somebody will say its not all like this , where is it then? Stop postig gangster rap pretend toughness and then saying oh its not all like that.

IrishGeordie

Blowin in the Wind - one of the most hauntingly beautiful pieces of music ever written

IrishGeordie

Sorry, almost forget - Make You Feel My Love is better than any 'rapper''s 'tunes'...

cloptrop

IrishGeordie wrote: »

Blowin in the Wind - one of the most hauntingly beautiful pieces of music ever written

Yes a song where he throws great metaphores about like they are confetti , Nas throws one into a song and everything he wrote is up there with willie wordsworth.