Bob Dylan v Rappers who think they are poets.

Da Shins Kelly

cloptrop wrote: »

Da Shins Kelly



Alright theres a bit of something there, slight bit of wit , I so bad I get madame medusa stoned ,
I make medicine sick ,
I cut a scissors ,
I took the famines breakfast,
I gave aids an sti .

These type of things are nothing new , Ill hand it to him he makes a good one , I like the two uses of the Ms Moet Medusa , gives it a ring ,
You could stretch it out and say this is how his life was he was faced with a problems and he got through whatever faced him . I do like the line but the trouble is finding it in a big huge dragged out and overdone "it was tough growing up but I managed to get through it" subject matter.
Im not on here saying these dudes dont make a good song or write good lyrics , I just dont think they bring much to the table by means of poetry .
They arnt poets they are songwriters , and alot of the lyrics you can see are just put together because they ryme . Stuff like,

I like to kill nigga , finger on a trigger, cash flow gettin bigga , My homie J zee , I call him jigga ,

Then one one good line and he is a genius?
Paint the feelings of these street hustlers , tell me about the surroundings give me a picture of new york , not a random load of sequences involving people shooting each other and being tough and making money slanging dope ,and being poor when he is actuually making money slanging rap.

It read kinda like this , John doing it rough he is on crack , billy had to give his bitch a smack , bill sells cant get a job because he is black , Ill get rich I turn water to crack.

Somebody will say its not all like this , where is it then? Stop postig gangster rap pretend toughness and then saying oh its not all like that.

Well, I've given you examples of the poetic techniques used in the writing. It's not like he's just coming up with words that vaguely rhyme. There is thought put into it and it takes skill to use things like internal rhyme, metaphors, alliteration, similes and hyperbole effectively, and not everyone is able to do it.

If you listen to Illmatic, you'll get a vivid picture of Queensbridge and the environment that Nas grew up in. This is the real world - people do grow up in conflict areas where guns and drugs are rampant, and that's how a lot of hip hop artists grew up. The key to being a great writer is to write about what you know, and that's what a lot of them do know. It just so happens that a lot of them grew up in dangerous, poverty-stricken areas that were rife with violence and drugs. While I wouldn't consider certain rap songs that just deal with partying and such as poetry (and I don't think even the rappers themselves would even consider it as such), there are hip hop artists who successfully employ poetic techniques and their work can be read as poetry and engaged with on a literary level - such as, Illmatic.

Likewise, I wouldn't consider everything Dylan ever wrote as poetry, I don't even think he would.

cloptrop

Yes he uses the techniques shins but is there any substance in it. Why not write about his experiences rather than pretending to have somebody elses. This is why most of it has no substance . If Nas told me how he felt living this life rather than telling me this life exists and pretending he enjoys it and is great at it , I might be willing to give it merit but saying he lived in the **** , sold drugs to make it rich , made ringworm itch ,
although may make a good song its is not poetry for me of any merit.

Da Shins Kelly

cloptrop wrote: »

Yes he uses the techniques shins but is there any substance in it. Why not write about his experiences rather than pretending to have somebody elses. This is why most of it has no substance . If Nas told me how he felt living this life rather than telling me this life exists and pretending he enjoys it and is great at it , I might be willing to give it merit but saying he lived in the **** , sold drugs to make it rich , made ringworm itch ,
although may make a good song its is not poetry for me of any merit.

He isn't pretending to have somebody else's experiences. What on earth are you talking about?

Listening to Illmatic, I never got the sense that Nas particularly enjoyed the life he lived, but was simply resigned to it given that was the situation he was born into and accepted it as being part of his life forever. People tend to do this - we all come to accept our circumstances, doesn't mean we're happy about it. Also, just because you might object to the life someone lived and the fact that they enjoyed it, doesn't mean that it doesn't have literary merit.

Employing the poetic techniques effectively is key to writing poetry. The technicalities of it are what separates it from other literary forms. The songs on Illmatic can be and are considered poetry and have literary merit. If you don't want to accept it, you don't have to, but it doesn't make you right.

I'm also seriously beginning to doubt the sincerity of your intent here.

cloptrop

Not at all doing this in a trolling way Im reading through what was posted up , I did see something by renegade I thought was good.

rcaz

I don't think anyone's going to convince you cloptrop. This whole thread is kinda like a playground for you to disagree with everyone. Which is fine, I just don't see the point to this thread anymore.

Donnielighto

cloptrop wrote: »

Why not write about his experiences rather than pretending to have somebody elses. This is why most of it has no substance .

Dylan didn't just deal with his own experiences. He also dealt with issues that he felt he should. You don't seem to be approaching this with a fully open mind as evidenced by the title of the thread even. While the vast majority of rap isn't near poetry some could be viewed as poetry, dance with the devil - immortal technique , mathematics - mos def, nas as mentioned earlier and others. The harsher language does reflect a harsher upbringing for most but also the social commentary aspect of certain rappers requires this to effectively deal with the issues.

Jimmy Iovine

I can't understand what the point of this thread is?

"The Road Not Taken", for example, was written to be read out as a poem. "N.Y. State of Mind" (by Nas) was written to be rapped. That Dylan song you mentioned was written to be sung.

If someone tried to rap "The Road Not Taken" then it'd probably be written off as one of the worst songs of all time. The same as if someone was to read a Nas song out at a poetry reading. It'd probably be dismissed as useless.

I reckon there are almost no artists out there at all who would compose a song with the intention of it being called a poem, or for them to be recognised as a poet on the back of it. If they do this then they're approaching it all wrong.

As rcaz said you can't judge the song by just reading the lyrics. That's not how the artist envisioned people would be judging it by or performing it when he/she wrote it.

With regard to rap the flow of the artist is as important as the lyrics at times. You can throw as many flash words into a song as possible but there may only be 1 person in the world who can deliver that song to perfection, and that person is generally the one who writes it. It's not as important an issue in other genres because a lot of the songs are sung at the same tempo.

Look at a song like "Bombs Over Baghdad" by Outkast. Read through the lyrics and then listen to the song. It's really only when you listen to it you realise what an unbelievable song it is. Everything fits perfectly; the delivery, the beat and the lyrics.

[Dre]
1, 2.. 1, 2, 3; yeah!
In-slum-national, underground
Thunder pounds when I stomp the ground (Woo!)
Like a million elephants and silverback orangutans
You can't stop a train
Who want some? Don't come un-pre-pared
I'll be there, but when I leave there
Better be a household name
Weather man tellin' us it ain't gon' rain
So now we sittin' in a drop-top, soaking wet
In a silk suit, tryin' not to sweat
Hits somersaults without the net
But this'll be the year that we won't forget
One-Nine-Nine-Nine, Anno Domini anything goes, be whatchu wanna be
Long as you know consequences, to give and for livin'
The fence is too high to jump in jail
Too low to dig, I might just touch hell
HOT! Get a life, now they on sale
Then I might cast you a spell, look at what came in the mail
A scale and some Arm and Hammer, soul gold grill and some baby mama
Black Cadillac and a pack of pampers
Stack of question with no answers
Cure for cancer, cure for AIDS
Make a nigga wanna stay on tour for days
Get back home, things are wrong
Well not really it was bad all along
before he left adds up, to a ball of power
Thoughts at a thousands miles per hour
Hello, ghetto, let your brain breathe,
believe there's always more, ahhhhh!

[Big Boi]
Uno, dos, tres, it's on
Did you ever think a pimp rock a microphone?
Like that there boy and we still stay street
Big things happen every time we meet
Like a track team, crack fiend, dying to geek
Outkast bumpin' up and down the street
Slant back, Cadillac, 'bout five nigga deep
Seventy-five MC's freestylin' to the beat
Cause we get crunk, stay crunk, at the club
Should have bought an ounce, but you copped a dub
Should have held back, but you throwed the punch
'Spose to meet your girl but you packed a lunch
No D to-the U to-the G for you
Got a son on the way by the name of Bamboo
Got a little baby girl four year, Jordan
Never turn my back on my kids for them
Should have hit it (hit it) quit it (quit it) rag (rag) top (top)
Before you RE up, get a laptop
Make a business for yourself, boy, set some goals
Make a fat diamond out of dusty coals
Record number four, but we on the road
Hold up, slow up, stop, control
Like Janet, Planets, Stankonia is on ya
A movin' like Floyd commin' straight to Florida
Lock all your windows then block the corridors
Pullin' off on bell 'cause a whippings in order
I like a three piece fish before I cut your daughter
Yo quiero Taco Bell, then I hit the border
Pity PAT rappers tryin' to get the five
I'm a microphone fiend tryin' to stay alive
When you come to ATL boi you better not hide
cause the Dungeon Family gon' ride, hah!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVyVIsvQoaE

wayfarers

cloptrop wrote: »

It really gets my goat when people compare rappers with bob dylan for lyrics .

It gets my goat that Dylan is categorised as a 'poet' and God forbid any other musicians should be. And I'm no fan of Tupac or his particular genre.

rcaz

cloptrop wrote: »

Why not write about his experiences rather than pretending to have somebody elses. This is why most of it has no substance .

So all artists should only try to express their own personal experiences? Telling imaginary stories automatically leads to empty art with no substance? Right.

budgemook

Poetry or not cloptrop? To be honest, you seem to know more about it than I do so I'm genuinely interested in what you think:

What do you mean keep it real, could someone please explain
When reality's just light interpreted by your brain
And if mine and your perceptions ain't one and the same
Which one of us is normal which one is insane
The skin never forgets a deep abrasion
Yet your brain often forgets deep conversations
This annoys me due to the nature of humanity
Want to remember the good, not just the bad things that happened to me
And yeah, I understand the minds an intricate tapestry
So is the skin and that still records damage, see
This scar above my eyebrow's from when I was a kid
And my skin has kept a record of the damage I did
Twenty some years down the line from that very day
Documentation of carelessness and the price that you pay
Yet it's over complex brain that sits inside of my head
Can't remember the last things me and my friend J said
I don't want to be just devoid of desire
I don't want to be another bird on the wire
I don't want to be just a log on the fire
I don't want to be that at all
I got a heart rate that's erratic
I guess god ****ed up the schematic
I can't hack it and I panic and that makes it go pneumatic
Causing landslides t-t-t-tearing up my insides
Sometimes I think I'll live forever, but I know I won't
When I really should be working on my flow I don't
I just sit here and read extracts from this note I wrote
Trying to find something that is worth a quote
Fixing up mad Bitches like lobotomy stitches
When I hit a tight rhyme see my leg it twitches
I ain't into this game for the fame or riches
Good to write tight rhymes, street poems and scriptures
Now what's the point I'm making? Why I am saying this out loud?
Am I convincing myself or pandering to the crowd?
You can hear every word, you would still never know me
Like Sean Penn could win 10 Oscars but he'll still be Spicoli

Midlife Crashes

If you want to hear genuinely good lyrics in rap, avoid this mainstream gangsta crap and listen to what are known as conscious rappers. People like Talib Kweli, Common, Lupe Fiasco an Mos Def. Some of these guys are as much poets as rappers.

Talib Kweli - Religion
Every Sunday waking up, catching gossip at its worst
Couldn't see the difference between the Baptist and the Catholic church
Caught up in the rapture of the 1st chapter and the 2nd verse
If we are all God's Children, what?s the word of the Reverend worth?
Taught early that faith is blind, like Justice when you facing? time
If we all made in God's image, does that mean his face is mine?
Wait...Or is that blasphemy, it?s logical, it has to be
If I don't look like my father, then the way I live is bastardly
Naturally that's confusion to the young?n that trying to follow Christ,
Taught that if you don't know Jesus than you lead a hollow life.
Never question the fact that Jesus was a Jew and not a Christian
Know that, Christianity was made law by politicians, and who was King James?
And why did he think that it was so vital-
To remove chapters and make his own version of the Bible?
They say hell is underground, heaven is in the sky
They say that?s where u go when u die- but how they know?
I've been to many churches, I've quoted many verses,
I've dealt with my base self, I control my many urges
I used to study my lessons, that was a blessing and not a curse,
I found out that heaven and hell exists here on Earth
Studied with Rastafarians and found out from the dreads
That hell was called the Babylon and that?s where a crazy boy has dwelled
They got us thinking that Muslims like to make bombs,
But real Muslims believe in Paradise and resist the Shai'tan. (Muslim word for Satan)
So, it all sound the same to me
But when they say what?s right and the other's wrong, it sounds like game to me
Its like God skipped past the church and came to me
No- that ain't vain to me.
Its just a particular way that I came to see the difference between those who claim to be religious and those they say they spiritual
And recognize that life full of miracles
You could see the flow of divine
I glow when I rhyme
Cause it coincides with the growing tide of those looking for God and know to go inside
Looking for absolution
Living the mass confusion
The gas inducing psychopath creating the last solution, based on his interpretation
Of what the words are saying
Looking for God but ending up doing the work of Satan
Religion create division-
Make the Muslim hate the Christian
Make the Christian hate the Jew
Make the rules of faith that you condition to
And gotta follow, God Forbid, You go to Hell
But if you've been to and ghetto than you know well.

Jimmy Iovine

Midlife Crashes wrote: »

If you want to hear genuinely good lyrics in rap, avoid this mainstream gangsta crap and listen to what are known as conscious rappers. People like Talib Kweli, Common, Lupe Fiasco an Mos Def. Some of these guys are as much poets as rappers.

The majority of 'mainstream rap' is not gangsta rap. Gangsta rap is pretty much non-existent now. Also I've never heard anyone calling them rappers conscious rappers (I'm not arguing with you, it's just an observation).

Don't write off the gangsta genre though. If you look around there are some peaches in there. Check this song out from Freddie Gibbs. He's from Gary, Indiana. The Jackson 5 were all born there. That's about the only good thing about it. 25% of the population lives in poverty and by all accounts it's depressing to live there. Anyway Gibbs raps about his home city. It's one of the best songs I've heard in ages.

He somehow manages to be proud of his city despite all of it's obvious flaws. No fake bull **** just a real song about real people. It's not mainstream and unfortunately he'll probably never make as big as he should but he's still able to put out a great song. Gangsta rap isn't all crap.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8QHM49HCNY

cloptrop

Thats great lads descend the thread to **** by spending the time attacking me rather than my posts.
I never said you cant write about other peoples experiences , the first poem I posted was about someone elses experiences , what I was meaning was Nas never dealt with these peoples feelings or gave you any feeling towards their nature he just listed them off like he was looking a test and told to list what he sees in the picture.
That is no substance. That English rapper/dj the streets did some decent rap as far as I remember.
Im not writing everything off Iv only got as far as when everyone starts slagging me off in the thread Im still reading through alot of it.

rcaz

Don't be so quick to jump on the defensive, nobody's having a go at you and we are attacking the content of your posts and not yourself. Chill out in that respect.

How about the post I made with the four different videos and some lyric extracts on page two that you completely ignored? I think that Blackalicious tune would be particularly interesting to you, from what you've been saying so far.

paddyandy

'No Melody then it simply IS'NT Music of any kind ......something else maybe .

rcaz

paddyandy wrote: »

'No Melody then it simply IS'NT Music of any kind ......something else maybe .

So all music needs to have a discernable melody? I suppose none of this is music then?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2OQbA3r78M

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZazYFchLRI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIsh1J4FbKU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9pOq8u6-bA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhhvgdQs_h4

Da Shins Kelly

cloptrop wrote: »

what I was meaning was Nas never dealt with these peoples feelings or gave you any feeling towards their nature he just listed them off like he was looking a test and told to list what he sees in the picture.
That is no substance.

He's talking about life in the area he grew up in from his own perspective, but it was hardly an experience that was unique to himself. It's not "listing it off", he's describing the scenes. Listing things off is completely different, and does not require skill. That's not what is happening here. Songs on Nas' Illmatic have been and continue to be looked at as having literary merit. I do not think that that would be the case if he was simply "listing it off".

I don't really know what you're trying to achieve here...

cloptrop

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

He's talking about life in the area he grew up in from his own perspective, but it was hardly an experience that was unique to himself. It's not "listing it off", he's describing the scenes. Listing things off is completely different, and does not require skill. That's not what is happening here. Songs on Nas' Illmatic have been and continue to be looked at as having literary merit. I do not think that that would be the case if he was simply "listing it off".

I don't really know what you're trying to achieve here...

Every time I go to read something I keep getting posts from you saying Im wrong what am I trying to achieve , you say nas gets literary merit, . If you read the first post you would see that this annoys me because he is a songwriter , a good song writer who makes lots of money but as far as Im concerned he doesnt deserve anymore literary merit than Bubba Sparx or Snoop Dog , he is a rapper like all the rest .
Look at this for an example this is Bob Dylan describing a paranoid junkie thinking her house is bugged. Nas might say something like

My drugs are ready sell , I have them all rapped , maggie is paronoid she thinks her phone is tapped

Ok you could call that poetry just not very good poetry , look how Bob Dylan set the whole seen , explains the situation Maggie rushing in "fleet foot face full of black soot" checking the chimney for bugs , looking in the bed , he creates the vision of this chaotic scene theres not a line wasted.

Maggie comes fleet foot
Face full of black soot
Talkin' that the heat put
Plants in the bed but
The phone's tapped anyway
Maggie says that many say
They must bust in early May
Orders from the DA

Now if i have time Im gonna try locate this blackalicious one.

cloptrop

The hazy days go to nights returning on and on
The eye in the sky that don't lie be watching all y'all
The troublesome time filled anxieties just keep crawling on
And a dream world line up in your mind just keep on calling y'all

The shining lights of stages after the show are faded
The crowd is gone away, and now the dawning day
Gives way to creatures lurking, can hear the crickets chirping
Only the owls can see for this is when they start their prey
The homeless ask for quarters for shelter and some water
Say "sorry not today" and turn and walk away
The busy street is empty whistling winds are blowing gently
Listening intently to all of the things they have to say
A day of work completed a night of rest is needed
Almost done read a book but eyelids to heavy to read it
The fireplace is kindling, snug with your queen and building
About the victories tomorrow's gonna bring your way

[chorus]

(I hope that what I have written will be of some assistance)

Gazing outside the window the sunny skies dwindle
And now it's full of stars a hurling comet soars
While during the body slumber the soul begins to wander
To dream dimensions see the inner conscious doesn't pause
Keeps moving where it's bound to say now I lay me down to
After that stretch and yawn energy left and gone
The sandman's on your shoulder whispering in your ear he told you
Let all your problems go tonight I'm rapping hear my song
A day of work completed a night of rest is needed
Almost done read a book but eyelids to heavy to read it
The fireplace is kindling snug with your queen and building
About the victories tomorrow's gonna bring your way

This is more like it , imagery a feel for the situation , paint a picture dont just list what you see . I wouldnt call this my type of stuff but it is decent poetry none the less . Im willing to say Blackilicious could be called a writer of poetry ,
He doesnt capture my imagination in any way but thats just me , if you think its good or it makes you feel something then it would be perfectly viable to call this good poetry. Ill stick him on a list .

Donnielighto

You can read pages into most decent literary works including songs, rap song are no different. You are a big Dylan fan and that is clear but while he may have more depth than most rappers the comparison is of someone who is seen as the top of his field against an entire group so it's always goin to be easy to claim is money, drugs, bitches and guns.

Try http://rapgenius.com for some of the songs mentioned, the background to some lines is the songs arent always what they seem at first.

Quick question, for something to be poetry does it have to be unclear what the poet is sayin on first reading with each line?

paddyandy

Melody is music .Rap has NO melody or Notes from music . therefore it is not music of ANY sort kind or type .????? Is that CLEAR ?

cloptrop

Donnielighto wrote: »

Quick question, for something to be poetry does it have to be unclear what the poet is sayin on first reading with each line?

No definately not , but some of the best poetry for me is hard enough to understand to get a load of different meanings to it , Bob Dylan never said what his poems were about because debating what they are about is half the fun ,
For example he would tell you mr tambourine man is just about some dude banging a tambourine , its metaphorical. It for me is about getting someone to make a joint or deal you some drugs or something along them lines .
It does not have to be this way and alot of stuff is quite straightforward , but usually you need to think about the good stuff because thats when they are using metaphors to represent other things they arnt mentioning .
For example that nas line , about giving medusa blowbacks and getting her stoned.
This for me is a metaphor medusa being the harsh hand he was dealt growing up in the hood , giving it a shotgun (blowback ) is another metaphor for making the best of your surroundings however ****ty .
Some people may read it as a fella saying they drank and smoked weed with madame medusa and then shot her with a 12 gauge , fair enough .

Da Shins Kelly

cloptrop wrote: »

Every time I go to read something I keep getting posts from you saying Im wrong what am I trying to achieve , you say nas gets literary merit, . If you read the first post you would see that this annoys me because he is a songwriter , a good song writer who makes lots of money but as far as Im concerned he doesnt deserve anymore literary merit than Bubba Sparx or Snoop Dog , he is a rapper like all the rest .
Look at this for an example this is Bob Dylan describing a paranoid junkie thinking her house is bugged. Nas might say something like

Ok you could call that poetry just not very good poetry , look how Bob Dylan set the whole seen , explains the situation Maggie rushing in "fleet foot face full of black soot" checking the chimney for bugs , looking in the bed , he creates the vision of this chaotic scene theres not a line wasted.

So, just because he's "a rapper like all the rest" he doesn't deserve literary merit? That's not a very strong argument. It doesn't really matter if it annoys you, or that you don't think he deserves it. It doesn't change the fact that his work is treated as such.
You're barely even addressing what I've said to you over the posts apart from saying that you don't think he deserves or it annoys you, or making uninformed comments about the authenticity of the work (even if it was inauthentic, which it isn't, why would it even matter? Poets aren't obliged to tell the truth, and they don't always do) or not understanding what descriptive writing is or having a very narrow view of what it involves. So what if you don't like it or agree with it? Get over it. Art is subjective.

Oh and I'm glad you deem Blackalicious worthy of being put on your "list" of poets. :rolleyes:

cloptrop

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

So, just because he's "a rapper like all the rest" he doesn't deserve literary merit? That's not a very strong argument. It doesn't really matter if it annoys you, or that you don't think he deserves it. It doesn't change the fact that his work is treated as such.
You're barely even addressing what I've said to you over the posts apart from saying that you don't think he deserves or it annoys you, or making uninformed comments about the authenticity of the work (even if it was inauthentic, which it isn't, why would it even matter? Poets aren't obliged to tell the truth, and they don't always do) or not understanding what descriptive writing is or having a very narrow view of what it involves. So what if you don't like it or agree with it? Get over it. Art is subjective.

Oh and I'm glad you deem Blackalicious worthy of being put on your "list" of poets. :rolleyes:

Its you again , there is absolutely nothing wrong with descriptive writing as you say and there is nothing wrong with telling the truth or not , but if you use descriptive writing you have to add something to your description to show your feelings , their feelings or someones feeling , something about the backround give me an image of the situation .
If you just write niggas will come up and cap you for your patch , you are just describing an action not descriptively writing , it is worthy of a newspaper article not a poetry session.

magma69

paddyandy wrote: »

Melody is music .Rap has NO melody or Notes from music . therefore it is not music of ANY sort kind or type .????? Is that CLEAR ?

rcaz

paddyandy wrote: »

Melody is music .Rap has NO melody or Notes from music . therefore it is not music of ANY sort kind or type .????? Is that CLEAR ?

It's wrong o'clock!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQxhOYqLPdY

budgemook

Cloptrop you never answered my post

paddyandy

They never learn .

Rothko

paddyandy wrote: »

Melody is music .Rap has NO melody or Notes from music . therefore it is not music of ANY sort kind or type .????? Is that CLEAR ?

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Either that or you're trolling.

Da Shins Kelly

cloptrop wrote: »

Its you again , there is absolutely nothing wrong with descriptive writing as you say and there is nothing wrong with telling the truth or not , but if you use descriptive writing you have to add something to your description to show your feelings , their feelings or someones feeling , something about the backround give me an image of the situation .
If you just write niggas will come up and cap you for your patch , you are just describing an action not descriptively writing , it is worthy of a newspaper article not a poetry session.

Sigh. You don't know what you're talking about.