HELP, Dogs eating there own poop alot

sparky89

Hi all i have a 8 month old Yorkshire terrier (Bella) and a 6 month old pom (Harvey).
I got the Yorkshire terrier first and a few months later i got the pom.
Bella never had any problem with poop eating but as for Harvey he has done it from day one.
I no this will sound horrible but Harvey is so bad that he is even eating bellas poop and i mean there's nutting left by the time he is finished and its every poop they do hes eating it, also bella has started to eat the poop to because she sees Harvey doing it.

I have tried almost everything and have done hours of research and have not found one method that works:(.

The Methods i have tried :

1. I brought them to the vet because i had researched that it was a lack of a vitamin, the vets gave me a vitamin supplement to give to them for two weeks and it didn't work.
2. I have tried picking it up as soon as the go but i cant be with them 24/7 so when im not there they are eating it and sometimes make themselves sick.
3. I have tried putting chilli powder on the poop and it worked for an hour or two and then they just got used to it
4. I bought tablets called potty mouth in my local pet shop and the instructions told me one tablet for two weeks and if it does not work double the dosage. so two weeks later and double the dosage it still is not working
5. i feed them at regular times and i am feeding them the correct amount of food so there not been over fed.
6. i sent an animal nutritionist an email about the food i am feeding my dogs and she said the food is correct for all the nutrition they need. (i am feeding them royal canin mini adult).
7. teaching them the leave it command and giving out to them when i see them eating it.

I am going mad trying to find a method to get them to stop or even do less of it so if any one could help or give me advise it would be really appreciated.

Sigma Force

Just skimming through..have you tried tinned pineapple? It's always worked for any pups I've had ..just the regular tins I think Del Monte was the one I used coz it didn't have any added sugar in it. If you haven't tried it give it a go..feed a small chunk twice a day for a week. Keep an eye on the poop to make sure the pineapple is agreeing with the tum but other than that it's safe to feed and always worked for poopy breath puppies here.

sparky89

Sigma Force wrote: »

Just skimming through..have you tried tinned pineapple? It's always worked for any pups I've had ..just the regular tins I think Del Monte was the one I used coz it didn't have any added sugar in it. If you haven't tried it give it a go..feed a small chunk twice a day for a week. Keep an eye on the poop to make sure the pineapple is agreeing with the tum but other than that it's safe to feed and always worked for poopy breath puppies here.

I haven't tried this one
is it just one piece of the pineapple a day ?

sparky89

Anyone else any tips

falabo

I tried everythign: pineapple, tablets, water spray, chili mill , you name it ...

I changed their food to LUKULLUS (cold pressed, easy to digest, looks like rabbit nuts). this food is available from www.zooplus.ie

They stopped eating their poo INSTANTLY after 2 years

sparky89

falabo wrote: »

I tried everythign: pineapple, tablets, water spray, chili mill , you name it ...

I changed their food to LUKULLUS (cold pressed, easy to digest, looks like rabbit nuts). this food is available from www.zooplus.ie

They stopped eating their poo INSTANTLY after 2 years

I haven't tried changing there food because I was told that the food that there on it correct for them but I will give ur advise a go.
Is there anything in the food to stop them eating it

falabo

there is nothing in that Lukullus food that will make them stop eating food but because its so easily digestible, it doenst appeal to dogs after it came out their rear ends.

The problem with most commercial foods is that they are highly processed. This Lukullus food is probably the closest to the raw diet you'll ever find.

Vince32

I know this is going to sound weird... I even hesitate in posting it, but right now the dog is enjoying eating the poop, for whatever reason.. he likes it.

So it's up to you, to make the poop eating experience unpleasant... more unpleasant for the dog, if you know of something he really dislikes or better still hates, you need to do it to him as soon as he starts eating it, and make him understand this is not a good idea, because the thing he hates will happen when he does it.

Equally, when he stops, or doesn't try to eat it at all, you need to do or give the thing that he likes or better still, loves, and make him understand that not eating it or stopping eating it, he will get his favourite toy or treat.

This will take some days, and once you start you cannot stop, or skip one, every time without failing.

A dogs mind doesn't work like a humans, and applying human standards to canine actions simply doesn't work. You need to be mentally ready to be a little hard on your pooch, and the instant the switch flicks and he stops you need to be ready to lavish it with praise toys and / or treats.

I know about 8 people on this forum who will chew me out for suggesting this, but association to an action, what ever action, can be altered with either positive or negative reinforcement.

What ever way you choose to try sort this out, I hope you have all the success in the world.

Vince

Edit: Oh and practice your "Bad Dog" voice, find a stern tone in your vocal range, and reserve it for telling off your dogs, meaning only use it when your dogs are being scolded, and again.. equally, find a nice, charming tone for when they are being good. The more you do this, the more your dogs will know you mean business.

Cherry Blossom

Hi OP,

I would recommend writing down your dogs' daily routine - feeding times, exercise times and what times of the day they do their poos. Work out when they go in relation to feeding times, if you figure out how this corresponds you can alter your feeding times so that poo time co-inside with the usual times they are waked. Exercise encourages bowel movements so will establish a habit that they only go when on walks. If the pineapple works you can use this in conjunction to 'break' the habit. When they go while on their walk give a very high value reward like lots of affection, a play with their favourite toy or a very tasty treat that they don't get at any other time (which will also distract them from trying to eat poo while you pick it up). It doesn't have to be a very long walk, 10 minutes should probably do it.

Definitely try a different food though, different foods suit different dogs and it sounds like there is something that is left behind with the RC that is appealing to them when it comes out the other end.

jf852003

sparky89 wrote: »

Sigma Force wrote: »

Just skimming through..have you tried tinned pineapple? It's always worked for any pups I've had ..just the regular tins I think Del Monte was the one I used coz it didn't have any added sugar in it. If you haven't tried it give it a go..feed a small chunk twice a day for a week. Keep an eye on the poop to make sure the pineapple is agreeing with the tum but other than that it's safe to feed and always worked for poopy breath puppies here.

I haven't tried this one
is it just one piece of the pineapple a day ?

Hi,

We used this on our cocker spaniel, my sister fed him pretty much a whole tin of pineapple (!!)

Suffice as to say, we have had no issues since. It definitely worked and he hasn't done it since but I don't know how universal it is

FoxyVixen

There's a possibility here that there's just too much protein in the dogs diet so that when it comes out, the dog can still smell food as opposed to faeces. Hence eating it thinking, "yum, more food". So you can either put pineapple in with it's feed so it's put off the food or change its diet. No idea on what's a good food for a small dog, but Gain Large Adult works for my Akita alongside red mills for the family sheepdog with healthy dinner left overs.

You'd be surprised at the change of a diet can bring in an animal. Had this issue with my Akita and realised it was the protein content that had her eating her faeces as soon as she had turned around!!

Definitely against a previous posters response going down the negative reinforcement should it be required. Having worked with both dogs and horses in the past, positive reinforcement brings on a MUCH quicker change in understanding from the animal than negative.

But something tells me it's in the diet. Does the animal nutritionist have relevant qualifications to justify considering their opinion? I've heard Royal Canine is just not what it used to be so again thinking it's a dietary thing.

Vince32

Sparky !

I don't know if your little poop problem is getting any better, but I was thinking about your problem today and I remembered a chap by the name, B.F.Skinner.

S-R can be observed all throughout the animal world, but is widely, and mainly used for human learning. It is worth mentioning that Skinner, while performing an experiment with dogs. (no dogs were harmed) If memory serves it had something to do with their digestion rate, Skinners assistants would bring the dogs their food, and they would begin to salivate even before they seen the food, once they saw the assistant with white lab coats.

There was a direct collation with the visual Stimulus, and saliva Response, basically he had inadvertently taught the dogs drool, when they saw white lab coats. He preformed variations of the experiment using a bell, and removing the white lab coats, and after a learning period, the dogs would then salivate at the tone of a bell.

From there he developed his working theory into the published theory linked below, which has been widely accepted in the teaching community.

Skinner is widely famous for his work in (S-R) Stimulus + Response, and his methods are fairly straight forward, it boils down to 3 simple steps, Action + Reaction = Result. or as Skinner would say, Stimulus + Response = behaviour modification. But I'll let you decide how much you rate the idea.

My previous post sort of sums it up, but in an effort to clarify my meaning, I'm going to provide a link that explains his theory clearly, http://www.instructionaldesign.org/theories/operant-conditioning.html

If it helps at all, or if anything else does, please let us know, personally I'd love to know how the pineapple thing works out.

Vince.

DBB

Vince32 wrote: »

I don't know if your little poop problem is getting any better, but I was thinking about your problem today and I remembered a chap by the name, B.F.Skinner.

S-R can be observed all throughout the animal world, but is widely, and mainly used for human learning. It is worth mentioning that Skinner, while performing an experiment with dogs. (no dogs were harmed) If memory serves it had something to do with their digestion rate, Skinners assistants would bring the dogs their food, and they would begin to salivate even before they seen the food, once they saw the assistant with white lab coats.

There was a direct collation with the visual Stimulus, and saliva Response, basically he had inadvertently taught the dogs drool, when they saw white lab coats. He preformed variations of the experiment using a bell, and removing the white lab coats, and after a learning period, the dogs would then salivate at the tone of a bell.

No, it wasn't B.F. Skinner who first described this, it was Ivan Pavlov. What you are describing here is not Skinnerian or operant conditioning, it is classical, or Pavlovian conditioning, whereby a previously neutral stimulus (in this case, the bell), when presented with an unconditioned stimulus (in this case, food) elicits a reflexive response from the animal (in this case, salivation). He did not teach the dogs to drool. It is a reflexive response which isn't taught. It is involuntary. The dog has no control over it.

What you are confusing classical conditioning with is operant, or instrumental conditioning, as described by B.F Skinner some years after Pavlov first described classical conditioning. In operant conditioning, the animal learns that if he carries out a behaviour, it will either be reinforced or it will be punished. If the behaviour is reinforced, the animal is more likely to repeat the behaviour. If it is punished, the animal is less likely to repeat the behaviour. The animal is fully in control of whether he responds or not, it is a voluntary response.

To put it in a "real life" context: when we use a clicker, we pair it with a food reward (mostly). The click, like the bell, eventually elicits a salivation response. Therefore, the effect of the click is classically conditioned. When the click happens, the dog can't stop himself from salivating.
When we want a dog to sit, we can use food to lure him into the required position. He can decide whether to sit or not. However, when he sits, he hears a click and the sit is reinforced with a food reward. The click elicits the salivation response and makes the dog anticipate reward for sitting. So, the act of sitting is operantly conditioned, but the response to the click is classically conditioned. So the two almost always work in tandem with one another, but it is vital to know the difference when training dogs, and critical for behavioural rehab.
I can absolutely assure you that both processes are used in teaching all animals, and both processes are constantly at work on every one of us, and our dogs and all animals, at every moment of the day.

I know about 8 people on this forum who will chew me out for suggesting this, but association to an action, what ever action, can be altered with either positive or negative reinforcement.

I have resisted respnding to this, but on foot of your confusion between the different forms of conditioning, and now confusing reinforcement with punishment, I feel it important to once again point out some inaccuracies: call it being "chewed up", but I call it correcting factual inaccuracies. When such inaccuracies are potentially going to cause harm or distress to a dog, it's only right that they are corrected.
I haven't seen any examples of negative reinforcement in your suggested methodology? Or have I missed something? I think you may be confusing your learning theory terms again, because it looks like you're confusing negative reinformcement with positive punishment?
If you negatively reinforce a dog for eating poop, you are making him continue eating poop. That's what reinforcement does. But you seem to be trying to make a dog stop eating poop, which requires the use of punishment. What form that punishment takes is important, because it's perfectly possible to punish a behaviour without having to do anything to the dog that he "dislikes, or better still, hates". What exactly are you suggesting here Vince? What are you suggesting the owner do to their dog to make him stop as he goes to eat the poop?

OP, the first thing that you simply MUST do is ensure that your dog has no underlying medical problems: malabsorption and digestive problems are very common in dogs, and are the root cause for a lot of coprophagic (poo-eating) behaviour. It is not just about missing vitamins from the diet: I'm talking major digestive anomalies which can only be diagnosed via blood and stool samples. There is absolutely no point in following any advice given here until you have eliminated this as a possible cause.

I agree with FoxyVixen that you need to tinker around with food: dogs fed a fresh diet rarely eat poop, so it would be worthwhile thinking about changing the dogs onto a fresh diet, or at worst a high-protein, low-waste commercial diet (e.g. Barking Heads, Taste of the Wild, Orijen).

Once you have established that this is not the cause, the first thing you MUST stop doing is giving out to the dogs. This can make dogs simply get the poop into themselves faster before you start giving out, and it will increase anxiety, which might bring about it's own problems. ALso, shouting at dogs during their toileting can make them hide whilst they're going, which is a nightmare for an owner trying to deal with coprophagia.
Now, it's time for some POSITIVE REINFORCEMENT:). That means teaching the dogs that if they respond to a verbal command, they're going to get a really yummy treat. This is going to require close supervision, and trying to structure the daily routine so that the dogs simply cannot poop unless there's someone there to supervise, but it's only for a few weeks.
When the dogs poop, you need to be with them. As soon as they've gone, call them over to you, give them a yummy treat (make it something particularly yum, like chicken or ham, or whatever your particular dogs would die for), then bring them back indoors. When they're safely in, go out without them and pick it up!

Repeat this over many days, but often after about 10-14 days, you should find that when your dogs poop, they will look at you, anticipating their reward (for those interested, the look response here has been operantly conditioned!). Keep perfecting this response, each time, bringing them back into the house with you before cleaning up.

When they're good at this, start building up the distance between you and them when they toilet. Eventually, you should find that even if you're still in the house, they'll come looking for you to get their treat after they've pooped.

Now, at this stage it might happen that they run back out into the garden to dine on their poop before you get out to pick it up. They might not, but they might! And if they do, this is the time to try using an aversive taste on the poop, making sure you're nowhere near the poop when the dogs taste it. The reason you wait until this stage is that if the dogs taste the aversive taste, they'll be much more inclined to come looking for you again, because looking for you has become habit. If they stay out and get to play with the poop, even with the aversive stuff on it, they will eventually become habituated to the aversive taste and it won't work any more: this is why using aversion on its own often does not work. If you have to go down this route, you want each exposure to be very short: it will be far more effective, but let me stress that you should not go down the aversive taste route until/unless the dogs give you the excuse to once you have gone through the training process.

This whole method, often wthout having to use the aversive bit at the end, is a highly effective, tried and tested method to help a dog lose interest in their poop: Having already utilised it with quite a few coprophagic dogs, I have recently successfully finished training my own new-ish dog who was eating her poop when I got her. To put a timescale on it for you, it took about 3 months from start to finish, and we had some mistakes along the way when she snuck out to the garden for a munch:o, but get there we did with progress every week. Every dog will be different of course, but as long as you're consistent, and avoid the use of shouting or other punishments along the way, you'll get there!

Vince32

Thanks for the correction, I don't know why I keep confusing Pavlov and Skinner, but it was worth the correction, so thanks for that.

When you asked what kind of things the dog would dislike, or hate?, well that's down to the individual dog, something along the line of a water pistol, or being put outside for 10 minutes, nothing extreme, just something to associate the action of poop eating, with something unpleasant, and then when it begins to stop, to equally reward and lavish praise on the dog when it starts to learn, to associate not eating it, with love and hugs and / or treats.

Sorry I can't describe what I want to say any clearer than that, but take from it what you will, even if it's nothing at all.

Vince.

DBB

Vince32 wrote: »

Sparky !

It is worth mentioning that Skinner, while performing an experiment with dogs. (no dogs were harmed)

For the record, the experiments carried out by Pavlov on these dogs were pretty gruesome: the dog's neck skin was dissected back to expose the salivary glands, which had bottles attached to them to collect saliva.
Pavlov also performed some rather upsetting experiments on children and babies that would never be allowed today. They were the times in Russia in the 1920s, and although our modern society would be repulsed by the treatment the dogs and children got, to put a silver lining on it all, there were nevertheless some extremely important discoveries made as a result of the research.
Indeed, although he wasn't a great advocate of punishment, the "Skinner Box" utilises electric shocks in order to demonstrate the effects of negative reinforcement and punishment on, in Skinner's case, rats and pigeons.
So, dogs were harmed during these experiments. As were children. And rats. And pigeons.

sparky89

Hi all just said id give am update
i have been giving them one ring of pineapple in the morning and another ring in the evening but there still eating it so i am now going to try doubling the dosage.

As far as for discipline i have tried it i have sat looking out the window at them waiting for them to eat the poop and they walk away when corrected but as soon as i turn around there straight at it

Vince32

when they turn away, thats the precise moment to start treating them, lots of praise and a few treats, then take away the poop, before you go away.

well done on what you have done so far, keep it up, they will start to learn what you want pretty quickly, give it another few days

DogsFirst

sparky89 wrote: »

Hi all i have a 8 month old Yorkshire terrier (Bella) and a 6 month old pom (Harvey).
I got the Yorkshire terrier first and a few months later i got the pom.
Bella never had any problem with poop eating but as for Harvey he has done it from day one.
I no this will sound horrible but Harvey is so bad that he is even eating bellas poop and i mean there's nutting left by the time he is finished and its every poop they do hes eating it, also bella has started to eat the poop to because she sees Harvey doing it.

I am going mad trying to find a method to get them to stop or even do less of it so if any one could help or give me advise it would be really appreciated.

Took this article from my site, hope it helps.

Coprophagia (poo eating)

Another problem with the wet masses of dry-fed dogs described above in “Anal Glands” is coprophagia. Dogs will eat poo for many reasons, but today it boils down to two – boredom/stress and nutrition, of which the latter is by far the most important. Dogs will naturally eat other animals’ poo (humans included) for nutritive reasons but they rarely eat their own; when they do it is more related to stress/boredom.

Chronically underfed and malnourished individuals are seen to partake (Serpell, 1995) more than well-nourished counterparts. Butler and du Toit (2006) documented that dogs in Zimbabwe were fed a low-protein diet by people in the village, and when left to roam during the day human waste made up 20% of their diet. Thus your dog's coprophagia is likely symptomatic of a nutrient deficiency.

There are many nutritional benefits to eating herbivore faeces. It is full of nutrients and vitamins from the healthy vegetarian diet. Symbiotic bacteria in the large intestines of most animals produce important vitamins such as vitamin K, thiamine (B1), and riboflavin (B2) (Feldhammer, 2003). Dogs fed a diet low in these specific nutrients may seek out faeces to top them up. Furthermore stools can be high in protein, particularly in the case of human and cat faeces, explaining the high incidence of coprophagia in Zimbabwean dogs.

In this way you will notice that coprophagic dogs will prefer the faeces of dry fed dogs to those of a raw-meat-fed dog as the latter will digest more completely their easy-to-digest meal. What is left is of little nutritional value (I always picture the dry nugget of the owl here for some reason, consisting of matter hair and feathers, the odd mouse claw and few bone fragments!). A dry-fed dog on the other hand is fed a meal high in difficult to digest components such as heavily processed "meat" derivatives and plant fibre (which suffers little break down on the passage from carnivore mouth to gut). This partially undigested meal moves to the large intestines providing extra sustenance to bacteria housed therein. Apart from the blooming of the wrong type of bacteria at this point (known as tropical sprue and treated by your vet with anti-biotics), their by products such as vitamins B and K and, somewhat unfortunately, gas are passed with the faces.

Dogs fed vitamins at the minimum required for growth, which is the industry norm for dry foods regardless of price (apart from the high meat types such as Orijen), who need more of these vitamins in times of extra excercise, stress, injury, are by necessity going to find it elsewhere, such as the stools of others.

Self-medication in dogs (and cats) is a result of their ability to rapidly associate food items consumed with physiological consequences, resulting in a preference for said items. This explains why coprophagia may appear as a “habit”. In fact it is no more a habit than the eating of oranges by sailors to avoid scurvy. It is a necessity brought about by nutrient-specific deficiency. Many animals demonstrate nutrient-specific hungers which evaporate when the animal is given a food loaded with that nutrient (Baker et al., 1987...cited in Serpell 1995). In this way poo can be quite tasty to your dog, but lets try to avoid it (at least in front of the neighbours)!!

So coprophagia comes naturally to the dog, don’t stress – you’re not a bad parent. Appropriate diet usually reduces this little issue to nil. In this case feed a fresh diet full of protein (raw meat) and vitamins (fresh food of any type really). If you insist on feeding a dry diet be aware the vitamins therein are at the "minimum required for growth" as per industry guidelines, despite what your vet or pet food retailer tells you. Vitamin inclusion is expensive. If your dry food contains more of a certain vitamin it will be written on the front of the packet, such as "with added vitamin C for dogs recovering from injury". This then becomes a vet prescribed food and doubled in price. Furthermore the vitamins in your dry food come from a bottle. A mix of chemicals that are preserved with other chemicals. These chemicals, particularly the heat liable ones, are often included in dry food in very high dose due to the level of destruciton during processing (vitamin C so lots of chemical is needed for some active molecules to remain as "vitamin C" - what happens the rest of the chemicals? Don't know.).

So aim to add a little fresh to your dogs diet be it whole raw chicken bits or some minor fruit additions. Cooked veggies are great too (preferably peas and green beans, power food). These actually need to be cooked for the dog as carnivores are woefully inept at digesting plant cell walls. Heat will break down the plant cell wall. Chop or mash them up to help this process further.

A more immediate solution to poo eating is the addition of pineapple (makes their poo unappetising, but not others of course...) or small amounts of courgette for the same reason. It is worth noting that if pineapple doesn't work try the courgette. This will help while you get the diet right. Without published evidence I can only cite my professional opinion that coprophagia is almost entirely a dry-fed dog phenomenon.

From a behavioural view point most are of the opinion that your actions can make the whole issue worse. Stalking the dogs while they poo or punishing them when they eat it can engrave a cheeky game element to the whole affair which may fudge the issue. This is tricky. Furthermore punishing will only stop the dog doing it in front of you, like weeing inside the house. Dogs should be toileted on the lead, reprimanded verbally if showing interest and rewarded for looking / walking away from the poo with a bit of sausage. The dream is that the dog comes looking for a bit of sausage after pooing, thereby leaving the poo, which you should absolutely be picking up immediately. Main thing here, keep them on the lead while you get the diet right. The fresh ingredients together with pineapple and courgette and 2-3 weeks of good poo patrol (no off lead exercise for example), should decrease this behaviour to almost nil.