Traveller beliefs

The King of Moo

MungBean wrote: »

Is there any actual references to "grabbing" other than that clip from "My big fat gypsy wedding" ?

I remember having a dig around at the time when I seen it, shocked as anyone but found it very difficult to find any other mention of it other than references to the show and travellers themselves denying it was a tradition at all.

I've read of travellers saying it hasn't happened to them. I think it's not super common as apparently it mostly happens at big pre-arranged events like weddings and chirstenings.

hightower1 wrote: »

So the old "everyone else was doing it" defense is a legit reason for sexisim and general mental / social abuse of women and children.

China has horrific and abusive human rights violations, they all are doing it yet they still get condemed by the international community for it. Seems like the "eveyone else was doing it" defense doesnt actualy work even on the largest scale.


In regards to the original post.... there are no traveller "beliefs" just superstision and traditional habbits. They use the word "belief" to evoke images of religious of ethnic persecution should anyone with common sense decide that they are plain and simply not an ethic group no matter how much they would like to protray themselves as one.

I hate when what I say is misrepresented.
I never said anything like that.
Of course I think such things are wrong. I said people who hold such attitudes are not entirely to blame, but are still ultimately responsible for their actions.

Look at it this way:
Is it wrong that society in general was sexist back in the 50s and many men held very misogynistic views? Of course.
Is it understandable that many men held such views due to the inherently sexist nature of society? Of course.

It doesn't vindicate those actions; it just puts them in context.

Travellers aren't vindicated in treating women like slaves because it's part of their culture.
But it's more difficult for a male traveller not to be sexist as he's born into an inherently sexist culture and raised with sexist views from day one.
It's easy for us to condemn such attitudes because for most of us it's socially unacceptable to hold them, due to a combination of our own personal opinions and the context in which we've been brought up and live.

Understanding why some people have backwards attitudes doesn't mean we vindicate such attitudes and don't want them changed.
Don't make it so simplistic.

thomasm

charlemont wrote: »

Scandalous carry-on. Travellers are pretty much trapped in what they think/were taught is their culture..Which to the rest of us really is just criminality, A form of cultural criminality..

Most of us have families that would be very upset and angry if we done wrong (which I have myself),But with Travellers, Wrong is their way of life. Travellers are no different from us, They just use their culture to hide behind..

Dont think I have agreed with a post as much as this one before, perfect summation of the problem

Statistician

weemcd wrote: »

Traveller beliefs:

recycling (stealing)
strong family values (marrying your cousin)
big weddings (women dress like hoors, the kids do whatever they want and the men drink their bodyweight and punch the head off each other)

Sounds better than rotting away in an office.

Duggy747

For the bad eggs in the group, being highly religious (wearing the cross, Catholic tattoos, etc) while at the same time not behaving like it.

The ones from my hometown are well-known, friendly and generally get on with everyone. It's the younger generation who are utter animals.

Seachmall

Statistician wrote: »

Sounds better than rotting away in an office.

Especially Except the "marrying your cousin" part.

Sir Gallagher

That whole grabbing bollox doesnt go on over here. I dont think its a tradition as such, maybe just a bit of a fad that the boys over there dreamt up in all their wisdom.

MungBean

The King of Moo wrote: »

I've read of travellers saying it hasn't happened to them. I think it's not super common as apparently it mostly happens at big pre-arranged events like weddings and chirstenings.

Where did you read it ? Theres always plenty of gypsy weddings and christenings and there seems to have been no mention of this "tradition" before the tv show.

I'm not saying its not a tradition by the way but I'd like to read something about it that didnt emanate from a reality TV show.

Sir Gallagher

Seachmall wrote: »

Especially Except the "marrying your cousin" part.

We all have a tempting cousin :pac:

Paparazzo

My mate works in the metal business and has a lot of contact with travellers. From his experience he says travellers don't really consider it "stealing" if they're doing it from the settled community. They're fair game.

HemlockOption wrote: »

One of the 'cultural' practices I hate most about the Travelling community is their treatment of animals. An opening scene of one of the programmes in the Channel4 series 'My big fat gypsy wedding', shows a terrified horse strapped into a cart being charged into an oncoming car. Another scene showed a Traveller boy of about 12 picking up his small dog and flinging him into a lake.

Amazingly Channel 4 made no comment on this type of behaviour. Although, maybe they thought it was shocking enough to speak for itself.

I think Channel 4 just show you the pictures and the viewer can make up their mind. If they say anything negative, they show will probably end up getting cancelled.
I know in west dublin where I live it's normal to see traveller horses on common land tied to a tree.

Also, ever notice how the cameras almost never follow the men to work?

ScumLord

shangri la wrote: »

any sport that allows someone to be "spear tackled" is more dangerous than boxing.

You should stop now, you really haven't a clue what your talking about. MMA is a regulated sport with trained professionals in every corner, from the fighters to the refs to the hundreds of background staff. Comparing it to the crap travellers call fighting is just complete and utter nonsense.

The King of Moo

MungBean wrote: »

Where did you read it ? Theres always plenty of gypsy weddings and christenings and there seems to have been no mention of this "tradition" before the tv show.

I'm not saying its not a tradition by the way but I'd like to read something about it that didnt emanate from a reality TV show.

There's a farily balanced piece on it here which mentions it tends to happen at big functions, but doesn't give any views as to how common it is.

http://www.frostmagazine.com/2011/02/09/my-big-fat-gypsy-wedding-alex-knott-on-grabbing/

There's also a Guardian article with a traveller woman talking about the difficulties traveller women face, and she mentions not having seen it ever happen.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2011/feb/25/truth-about-gypsy-traveller-life-women

I'd say it's prominence is overstated, but at the same time I don't think the makers of My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding would make it up: they're happy to show how ridiculous the dresses can be so we can all laugh at them, but they also seem to be trying not to be seen to condemn travellers, so I don't think they'd include something like grabbing if it didn't happen to a small extent at least.

smcgiff

Sir Gallagher wrote: »

That whole grabbing bollox doesnt go on over here. I dont think its a tradition as such, maybe just a bit of a fad that the boys over there dreamt up in all their wisdom.

First I've ever heard of grabbing - it looks like what's going on in that Youtube video should get you 5 years plus in jail. The cries and distress seemed genuine and not put on for the show.

It's fairly ****ing disgusting actually, and apart from moaning on a message board, not doing anything about it.

Ghost Buster

shangri la wrote: »

i was in longford then and seen some of the aftermath.

fact is issues are solved by a families boxers that otherwise would be solved by others a more violent way.

sometimes a mass fight ensues and anyone caught with a dangerous weapon should serve proper jail time, not community service like the courts are giving.

the state does not want/cant afford to pay to jail them for long enough that use of weapons is not worth the jail term.

Do you see how you contradict yourself within the space of a single 'full stop?

micropig

What's yours is mine:D:pac:

krudler

shangri la wrote: »

i was in longford then and seen some of the aftermath.

fact is issues are solved by a families boxers that otherwise would be solved by others a more violent way.

sometimes a mass fight ensues and anyone caught with a dangerous weapon should serve proper jail time, not community service like the courts are giving.

the state does not want/cant afford to pay to jail them for long enough that use of weapons is not worth the jail term.

but they dont resolve them, it just continues on, that documentary Knuckle shows it and even travellers themselves say it solves nothing, just leads to another boxing match.

blatantrereg

Maybe the girls in the video were laughing genuinely before and after screaming.
Given the non-reaction of onlookers I suspect it was more playful and less violent than the clips made it look.
I've heard/seen girls screaming and stuff like that and then laughing and saying things like it was just play. Heard it a few times. [I wouldn't be dismissive of stuff like that and would pay attention and it did just sound/look like it was consensual and in fun.]

holystungun9

micropig wrote: »

What's yours is mine:D:pac:

Finders keepers.

Em, first of all this is my backyard. Just cause I don't have everything nailed down doesn't mean I don't intend to keep it.

Nice new van and alloys by the way.

(above unfair generalization is both unfair and a generalization for the purpose of humour and does not reflect my view or the views of anybody ever. I do, however, wish I could afford not to work and to buy a new vehicle with alloys though. I think this will be out of my reach for a long time despite my hard work)

p to the e

shangri la wrote: »

they have 2 refs who will stop it when one man gives up or cant continue.

MMA which is gaining a huge worldwide audience is FAR more dangerous.

And I stop reading nnnnnnnnnnnnow!

hightower1

smcgiff wrote: »

First I've ever heard of grabbing - it looks like what's going on in that Youtube video should get you 5 years plus in jail. The cries and distress seemed genuine and not put on for the show.

It's fairly ****ing disgusting actually, and apart from moaning on a message board, not doing anything about it.

But their an ethnic minority you see, we cant be seen trampling on the ethnic beliefs of a culture surely..... :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

<sarcasim detector screams in pain>

ejmaztec

Min wrote: »

They have a belief that I need to buy gates for my farm all the time or need sheds painted or something else I don't need.

You might not need the gates, but the farmer up the road with the empty gate-posts might.

SEPT 23 1989

They believe they can fly

danois

http://www.travellerheritage.ie/default.asp

have a read there should help you a bit

BackScrub

I don't care what they believe in but I believe that there's far too much coverage of them and their carry on. They never seem to be off my telly.

smash

they're great lads aren't they

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRR2s2qeYgw

Ghost Buster

smash wrote: »

they're great lads aren't they

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRR2s2qeYgw

What a beautiful display of cultural identity and ethnicity. Up there with Morris Dancing, Hawaian garland giving and Eskimo nose rubbing.

MungBean

The King of Moo wrote: »

There's a farily balanced piece on it here which mentions it tends to happen at big functions, but doesn't give any views as to how common it is.

http://www.frostmagazine.com/2011/02/09/my-big-fat-gypsy-wedding-alex-knott-on-grabbing/

At these meetings, the girls dress up in very slutty outfits in a way not dissimilar to a prostitute. It suggests they’re very much looking for action – but their actions and morals are very different from the whorish image they portray.

Writer doesnt really hold back do they :eek:. And it seems to be an opinion piece about the TV show more than anything.

There's also a Guardian article with a traveller woman talking about the difficulties traveller women face, and she mentions not having seen it ever happen.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2011/feb/25/truth-about-gypsy-traveller-life-women

Thats what I mean travellers themselves dont seem to have heard of it until the TV show was aired.

I'd say it's prominence is overstated, but at the same time I don't think the makers of My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding would make it up: they're happy to show how ridiculous the dresses can be so we can all laugh at them, but they also seem to be trying not to be seen to condemn travellers, so I don't think they'd include something like grabbing if it didn't happen to a small extent at least.

I dont think they made it up either but from the show it wasnt a traveller who talked about "grabbing" and I doubt the show bothered a whole to to verify what yer one said. It made good TV, thats what the makers want. They want it in the Daily Mail causing controversy to boost ratings, its Daily Mail type crap anyway they hand pick the most extravagant families to shoot the weddings and christenings to make good TV.

Babooshka

Sir Gallagher wrote: »

That whole grabbing bollox doesnt go on over here. I dont think its a tradition as such, maybe just a bit of a fad that the boys over there dreamt up in all their wisdom.

Seriously, I saw one of them (male) get one of the females in a body grab that WWF fighters would be proud of on the luas a couple of months back. If it wasn't in the "grabbing" /courting tradition then he was just trying to wrestle her to the ground of the luas for fun.

mikemac1

Very religious
The believe in the nine commandants

One commandment is missing
"Thou shalt not steal"

danois

I dont doubt grabbing is real. I think it was something that happened rarely, unfortunately now after it being on tv im sure a lot more travellers will start to do it. :mad:

JoeyDoh

shangri la wrote: »

they have 2 refs who will stop it when one man gives up or cant continue.

MMA which is gaining a huge worldwide audience is FAR more dangerous.

I'm afraid you're quite mistaken in that matter. The reason being that if you can stand back up within 10 seconds in boxing you can continue to sustain punishment to your head.

In mma if a fighter is knocked down in the same fashion a boxer is deemed to be down for the count the fight is immediately stopped to prevent further damage.

Sorry to derail the thread but this was something I feel I had to address.

MungBean

JoeyDoh wrote: »

I'm afraid you're quite mistaken in that matter. The reason being that if you can stand back up within 10 seconds in boxing you can continue to sustain punishment to your head.

In mma if a fighter is knocked down in the same fashion a boxer is deemed to be down for the count the fight is immediately stopped to prevent further damage.

Sorry to derail the thread but this was something I feel I had to address.

Only after its been established that he is actually out cold and incapable of fighting, usually after a follow up blow or two while they are unconscious.

Sir Gallagher

Whats the story with MMA fans loving a good preach about how amazing and safe MMA is?

JoeyDoh

Sir Gallagher wrote: »

Whats the story with MMA fans loving a good preach about how amazing and safe MMA is?

Because there is a deep set prejudice against the sport which is grounded in the believe that competitors beat each other to a bloody pulp which is far from the truth.

Under the unified rules mma has become a far safer sport. I was more so addressing the statement that Bare Knuckle boxing, a sport governed by men from a tradition where giving up is a great shame is safer than a regulated and recognized sport.

@Mungbean
Not necessarily out cold, in some cases fights are stopped when a fighter is seen to be groggy or "out of it"

Professey Chin

MungBean wrote: »

Only after its been established that he is actually out cold and incapable of fighting, usually after a follow up blow or two while they are unconscious.

Its not out cold. Its when theyre "not intelligently defending". They could be completely conscious but if theyre just turtling and or not attempting to evade/counter it gets stopped.

pickarooney

hightower1 wrote: »

Im sorry....but those behaviours and life choices DOES make a person a bad egg. If a settled person decided not to give their children the chance at a full education and made their women bound to 1960s roles in the home then I'd call them a major ar$ehole, Im not going to single anyone out on ethnic grounds so ANYONE with that kind of attitude IS an ar$sehole - settled or traveller- imo.

Who says that the genders are opposed to occupying the traditional roles though? If they're comfortable with it, who is it harming?

A school education is not necessarily the only way to learn or become an adult. Just because it differs from your way of thinking doesn't make anyone else a worse person.

Ghost Buster

pickarooney wrote: »

Who says that the genders are opposed to occupying the traditional roles though? If they're comfortable with it, who is it harming?

A school education is not necessarily the only way to learn or become an adult. Just because it differs from your way of thinking doesn't make anyone else a worse person.

Indeed. The high literacy rate amongst travellers is testament to this. Besides , reading and writing is over rated and not neccessary for most types of employment.

pickarooney

pickarooney wrote: »

A school education is not necessarily the only way to become an adult.

Biology tends to take care of that all right

bigpoppa

Besides , reading and writing is over rated and not neccessary (sic) for most types of employment.

Over rated? It is useful when filing a tax retur....oh never mind

pickarooney

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Indeed. The high literacy rate amongst travellers is testament to this. Besides , reading and writing is over rated and not neccessary for most types of employment.

But I don't think they buy into the whole idea of office work or anything outside the scope of traditional traveller occupations. That said, you don't need to go to school to learn to read, write and do arithmetic.

Ghost Buster

pickarooney wrote: »

But I don't think they buy into the whole idea of office work or anything outside the scope of traditional traveller occupations. That said, you don't need to go to school to learn to read, write and do arithmetic.

I dont work in an office. My work is hands on and manual but I kinda need to read none the less. What is inside the scope of traditional traveller occupation exactly and do you mean to imply that travellers are home schooled or such?

pickarooney

Ghost Buster wrote: »

I dont work in an office. My work is hands on and manual but I kinda need to read none the less. What is inside the scope of traditional traveller occupation exactly and do you mean to imply that travellers are home schooled or such?

I don't know as I've never lived in a traveller community so wouldn't know where to begin making assertions or implications on something I know nothing about.

Sir Gallagher

JoeyDoh wrote: »

Because there is a deep set prejudice against the sport which is grounded in the believe that competitors beat each other to a bloody pulp which is far from the truth.

Under the unified rules mma has become a far safer sport. I was more so addressing the statement that Bare Knuckle boxing, a sport governed by men from a tradition where giving up is a great shame is safer than a regulated and recognized sport.

@Mungbean
Not necessarily out cold, in some cases fights are stopped when a fighter is seen to be groggy or "out of it"

In a thread about travellers and the first mention of deep set prejudice is about MMA. Classic After Hours.

later12

shangri la wrote: »

I have heard constantly about travellers being discriminated against because of their customs and beliefs.

I would genuinely like to know, in modern Ireland, what exactly are these customs and beliefs?

I'm willing to keep an open mind to understand your viewpoint and would ask anyone that wants to have an aimless go at travellers to use one of the other threads.

I'd consider there to be one major problem in respect of this discussion on travellers, broken into two parts

(1)
Advocates of improving the conditions of travellers trying to prove that travellers have a distinct and separate culture or ethnic identity.
This is futile, diversionary, and altogether beside the point.
It does not matter whether travellers have a distinct culture of gene pool or not. What matters is that there is an identifiable group of individuals who display severe attributes of disadvantage in relation to public health, labour force participation and employment, and educational history. That's enough for intervention, in my book.

(2)
Critics of travellers repeatedly constructing straw men exactly similar to the above.
Observer1:This cohort of the population have outstandingly high mortality rates
Observer2: And the same cohort display worrying levels of illiteracy and criminal activity
Critic: They're not a real culture! OMG lik wat is their culture?!!!!1!!!


Hum-ing and haw-ing over a cultural and ethnic question is a silly waste of time which will always end in disagreement because the question is so wooly and abstract. The problems apparent in this visible cohort of individuals are tangible and real, and need to be addressed on that basis.

the purple tin

Are settled travellers classed in the same group as actual travelling travellers?

cloud493

You know I've been in Ireland for 2 years now, and I've never seen a traveller.

later12

the purple tin wrote: »

Are settled travellers classed in the same group as actual travelling travellers?

In the census and the All Ireland Traveller Health studies, yes.

MungBean

The Great Chinholio wrote: »

Its not out cold. Its when theyre "not intelligently defending". They could be completely conscious but if theyre just turtling and or not attempting to evade/counter it gets stopped.

I'm not talking about turtling I'm talking about blows landed after the fighter is incapable of fighting, whether knocked out cold or groggy. It takes blows after the knock out to determine whether they are defending intelligently or not. I've seen fighters knocked out and come around again so the refs give them the opportunity to defend even though they are not defending.

So to say MMA is safer because once knocked out the fight is stopped when the fact is the blows are allowed to continue until the ref decides the fighter is incapable of fighting is absurd. A fighters well being is entirely in the refs hands in MMA once he gets to that stage of not being able to defend himself, theres some good refs but some bad ones too. And thats at main event televised show-pieces. Drop back down to where these guys come from and your gonna find a hell of a lot of dodgy refs who let young guys take too much of a beating before stopping a fight.


But anyway back on topic now that I have got my piece in

Corruptedmorals

Those two in the grabbing clip married each other, Cheyenne and whatever his name is, the daily mail wrote about it. Will be on an upcoming big fat gypsy wedding probably.

paddymick

cloud493 wrote: »

You know I've been in Ireland for 2 years now, and I've never seen a traveller.

Stick a skip outside your house as bait and wait an hour..;)

Ghost Buster

cloud493 wrote: »

You know I've been in Ireland for 2 years now, and I've never seen a traveller.

If you live in the country make your home look like it is the home of a plumber or builder, leave your gate open and wait. They will come.