Another CCTV query - with a twist this time

BenEadir

Hi all,

I originally rented a spare office in April 2006 from a company who had leased the entire building I'm in. They subsequently went bust but the building owner allowed me (and another tenant with a similar arrangement) to continue renting our individual offices. I basically switched to paying him a slightly lower monthly rent (around July 2009) as he wasn't able to provide some of the shared services the company I had been renting from had been providing me with e.g. phone answering, reception etc and I continued using the offices uninteruppted. He never bothered getting me to sign a rental agreement and I never chased him about it.

After a few months a new company leased a large chunk of the building so there are now 2 single office tenants (myself included) and this large company who have recently taken the rest of the building also.

They have now installed CCTV cameras in the halls to monitor their staff coming and going and for security reasons I guess as myself and the other tenant continue to use the offices and come and go as we see fit 24/7/365.

I appreciate they probably want to keep an eye on their offices but the business I'm in requires I treat my clients with confidentaility and discretion and the idea of them being recorded on another tenants CCTV is making me very unconfortable. I'm also increasingly uncomfortable about them monitoring my comings and goings.

I like the landlord and don't want to be a pain in the ar$e which is what I think will quickly happen if I ask my lawyer to write to him about this so I'm hoping before I head down that road I can get some bit of a steer here from fellow Boardsies on what the overall situation is in relation to tenants CCTV'ing other tenants? I've been on the data protection website (http://www.dataprotection.ie/viewdoc.asp?m=m&fn=/documents/guidance/cctv.htm and http://www.dataprotection.ie/docs/Guidance_Notes_-_Monitoring_of_Staff/208.htm) but it deals mostly with employee related cctv issues not one tenant cctv'ing another!!

Also, I overheard one of the main tenants employees talking about them putting some sort of secure access swipe card system on the main (only) entrance to the building and the idea of that is also winding me up as the landlord seems to have given them carte blanche to do what they like given they are now occupying 95% of the building.

Help??

Ben

BenEadir

Bump ^^^

Seriously, 78 views and no one has an opinion of any sort? Is the problem too complex? Is the post too long? Is it an in appropriate post? Is this the wrong forum?

C'mon fellow Boardsies, help me out here.

Ben

Hogzy

BenThere wrote: »

Bump ^^^

Seriously, 78 views and no one has an opinion of any sort? Is the problem too complex? Is the post too long? Is it an in appropriate post? Is this the wrong forum?

C'mon fellow Boardsies, help me out here.

Ben

Read the very first sticky on the entire forum. Its against the rules to seek specific legal advice

ALL T&C's for things like this are covered in your lease or rental agreement, Ask for the T&C's of your tenancy and have a good read through them. Was such confidentiality a condition of the rental agreement between you and the landlord? CCTV is such a standard security feature in nearly all comercial premises. Its hardly unreasonable for a tenant or landlord to provide it.

BenEadir

I did, seriously. I'm not looking for advice, I'm looking for opinions or suggestions where I can get the relevant info to form my own opinion.

Do I need to rephrase my post or just forget about it?

Ben

BenEadir

I forgot to say thanks for referring me to the T&C's Hogzy but that's part of my problem, I have no rental agreement of any sort and its not the landlord who's installing the CC TV cameras in common areas its another tenant!!

Ben

Hogzy

BenThere wrote: »

I did, seriously. I'm not looking for advice, I'm looking for opinions or suggestions where I can get the relevant info to form my own opinion.

Do I need to rephrase my post or just forget about it?

Ben

I dunno, Im not a mod. I just said it in reply to the fact that nobody has posted on the thread.

IMO you need to approach your landlord and explain your confidentiality concerns. He can then relay your concerns to the other tenant. (IMO)You wont be able to have the CCTV removed (unless you have a prior agreement with the landlord saying that CCTV being forbidden is an condition of your tenancy) but you could request a your landlord to adopt specific conditions in his tenancy agreements to provide for CCTV issues such as confidentiality, What the CCTV can be used for specifically etc...

Is the CCTV in communal areas that you and the other tenant share (such as car parks, reception areas etc) or is the CCTV limited to just the tenants private areas? (EDIT: Never mind you answered this already)

Hogzy

BenThere wrote: »

I forgot to say thanks for referring me to the T&C's Hogzy but that's part of my problem, I have no rental agreement of any sort and its not the landlord who's installing the CC TV cameras in common areas its another tenant!!

Ben

Get a copy of the T&C's. Take it from there then. And talk to your landlord about your concerns.

BenEadir

Hogzy wrote: »

Is the CCTV in communal areas that you and the other tenant share (such as car parks, reception areas etc) or is the CCTV limited to just the tenants private areas?

Yes Hogzy, that's the nub of my problem. The other tenant has installed CC TV cameras in shared common areas ie in the main building entrance hall and common area corridors which I (and more importantly my clients) have to walk through to get to my office.

Ben

Procrastastudy

When I have my constitutional revision done I'll come back :P

Until then I think a visit to google and a search on Data Protection may be in order.

Also a search on the threads about CCTV on this very forum?

Manach

Totally offhand, but as a tenant, the OP has an implicit covenant of quiet enjoyment (as per Deasy's Act) - to peaceably enjoy his premises. As the OP's business is being impacted by the CCTV and possible physical security measures, then this interference is a breach of this covenant?

BenEadir

Hi GCDlawstudent, first of all best of luck with your revision and studies and second of all thanks for taking the time to contribute. I know I presented the issue as a contentious one which I'm looking to resolve myself (partly true) but I'm also genuinely interested in the issues it throws up ie

1. I'm a commercial tenant (Ltd company) without a signed lease or rental agreement and I've been in continuous occupation under this arrangement almost 3 years. In the absence of a written contract and ignoring the cctv issue for a minute what governs the landlord tenant relationship?

2. Given I have no contractual relationship whatsoever with the offending tenant what recourse do I have if the landlord ignores my request to him to ask his tenant to remove their CC TV cameras from the building common areas?

BTW I have already tried the data protection website without success and read several discussions on the CC TV forum but the issues there are mostly neighbours over looking each other etc.

Manach, thanks for your contribution. I'll read up on the Deacy Act!!

Cheers, Ben

Tom Young

We're getting into charter breach territory above!

BenEadir

Apologies Tom, I genuinely don't want to do that so please delete or close the thread if you wish.

I do whoever think the issues I've identified, if removed from my specific circumstances, are worthy of 'discussion' and opinion sharing but again if you think that would only serve as a thin veil for "advice" being given I'll bow to your judgement. No problem.

Ben

Tom Young

No I will leave it open, just know that not everyone who comes here and posts is right. There is no substitute for properly insured legal advice.

Hogzy

Ben I REALLY think you should see a solicitor. There are way too many intervening factors to be able to construct any sort of half decent answer to your question.

The fact you dont have a rental agreement makes the whole thing very complicated. There is no strict 'law' or straight rule that will answer your question. Either go to a solicitor or approach your landlord and say it to him.

I would recommend doing the latter first as you wont have to fork out for an appointment to see your solicitor.

Good Luck!

BenEadir

Tom Young wrote: »

No I will leave it open, just know that not everyone who comes here and posts is right. There is no substitute for properly insured legal advice.

Thanks Tom, I can assure you of three things:-

1. I never believe anything I'm told without independent and if necessary/appropriate professional validation.
2. I've been round the block plenty of times.
3. I'm genuinely interested in debating/exploring these issues on here but won't be taking any action without consulting my solicitor. I do have a solicitor I consult with regularly for business reasons so I've no issue with that but I do like to have done some research myself first so I can a) understand the potential issues in advance and b) challenge the advice from a position of some knowledge if I want to.

Cheers,

Ben

Victor

BenThere wrote: »

Hi all,

I originally rented a spare office in April 2006 from a company who had leased the entire building I'm in. They subsequently went bust but the building owner allowed me (and another tenant with a similar arrangement) to continue renting our individual offices. I basically switched to paying him a slightly lower monthly rent (around July 2009) as he wasn't able to provide some of the shared services the company I had been renting from had been providing me with e.g. phone answering, reception etc and I continued using the offices uninteruppted.

Could, in a vaguely High Trees way, the terms of the previous agreement be applied to the new agreement, even if one of the parties is different?

BenEadir

Victor wrote: »

Could, in a vaguely High Trees way, the terms of the previous agreement be applied to the new agreement, even if one of the parties is different?

I guess in the absence of anything else that would make sense but I don't know if there is any sort of precedent for that.

Thanks for the suggestion Victor.

Ben

castie

Victor wrote: »

Could, in a vaguely High Trees way, the terms of the previous agreement be applied to the new agreement, even if one of the parties is different?

As a non legal person.

Is it possible that it could be argued the landlord has agreed to the terms of the previous contract by continuing the lease without contest?