How British are You?

LordSutch · 16-04-2012 1:21pm

So getting back on topic, is there any part of you (Cavehill Red) that might be British?

Cavehill Red · 16-04-2012 1:24pm

Jorah wrote: »

We know your game pal. You are bitter and have a hatred of British people. I refuse to believe you've visited over a hundred countries yet still harbour such childish and generalised views about people.

What's this, the royal we, now?
This is the second occasion you've resorted to personal abuse because you don't like me airing the facts. I'm not generalising when I state how many people got arrested from each country abroad. Those are your government's statistics.
The only generalisation I see on this thread is some sad forelock tugging attempts at whataboutery, to suggest that somehow, despite the clear disparity of wrongdoing and the undeniable reputation the British have abroad as a result, somehow the Irish are just as bad.
Fact: we're not. Quit loathing yourselves and get over it and be proud that you aren't nationally associated with such a reputation.

I am pie · 16-04-2012 1:25pm

Cavehill Red wrote: »

On the contrary, out of the morass of nonsense, half-facts, self-loathing and forelock tugging in this thread, I'm the only person to have provided any facts.
I have supported every assertion I've made so far with cited evidence. If necessary, I'll go off and get you relative holiday stats for Britain and Ireland too.
Show me anyone else on this thread who has offered anything other than anecdote. There isn't one, apart from Fred's valiant but false attempt to implicate Ireland in the atrocities in Afghanistan.
You don't like my opinion? Fine. Unlike yours, however, it's supported by evidence.

No, your weak grasp of statistical analysis is not evidence. Really, it's not.

Please do go and get comparable (hint, that's an important word in this discussion) statistics which will compare age group to agree group and economic grouping to economic grouping. You could isolate Spain, Irish men/women from age group X with from social economic grouping Y (make up your own definition, so long as it's consistant for both nationalities). I'll eagerly await your results.

At least you're recognising your argument as merely your opinion.

Cavehill Red · 16-04-2012 1:25pm

LordSutch wrote: »

So getting back on topic, is there any part of you (Cavehill Red) that might be British?

Nope. Irish born and bred, to Irish parents, in Ireland, with Irish offspring.
And you?

Cavehill Red · 16-04-2012 1:26pm

I am pie wrote: »

No, your weak grasp of statistical analysis is not evidence. Really, it's not.

Please do go and get comparable (hint, that's an important word in this discussion) statistics which will compare age group to agree group and economic grouping to economic grouping. You could isolate Spain, Irish men/women from age group X with from social economic grouping Y (make up your own definition, so long as it's consistant for both nationalities). I'll eagerly await your results.

At least you're recognising your argument as merely your opinion.

The FCO and Dept of Foreign Affairs don't break down statistics like that. You're free to google yourself and see what they do provide. I've already treated you to it.

seanmc1980 · 16-04-2012 1:32pm

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Grand. Let's round back down to under 300 Irish arrests, then. That makes the disparity even more acute.
The facts are comparable. They are current. 2009 is not the Dark Ages. It's very recent indeed. I'm not going to spend all day digging up statistics for you to pick holes with because they don't suit your world view.
Fact: the British have a reputation abroad the Irish don't have. Fact: they get arrested per capita way more than the Irish do, which explains the reputation.
Now, if you doubt that, why not find me the statistics that say otherwise. You won't be able to. Even better, why not put it to the test yourself, by telling people the next time you're abroad that you're English and see if you get treated any differently. Might open your eyes to reality somewhat.

Ah i see where your coming from, you fall for the marketing used by foreigners too. "oh your irish we love the irish, you guys are great, now will you buy copious amounts of food, drink and tacky souvenirs while my friends and i laugh at how you believe the **** we tell you to buy our products”
See the tourist trade has copped on to the fact Irish people like to be liked but English don’t care if you like them.
having visiting over a 1/3 of the countries in the world should have i would have though your life experiences would have show irish are a stupid abroad as any other country, we nothing special like we like to think we are

Jorah · 16-04-2012 1:34pm

Cavehill Red wrote: »

What's this, the royal we, now?
This is the second occasion you've resorted to personal abuse because you don't like me airing the facts.

Airing what facts? That more Brits are arrested abroad than Irish? I've already stated that British people have won more Nobel Prizes. Does this make the British intellectually superior to the Irish?

I still challenge you on your claim to have visited over a hundred nations.

Cavehill Red wrote: »

The only generalisation I see on this thread is some sad forelock tugging attempts at whataboutery, to suggest that somehow, despite the clear disparity of wrongdoing and the undeniable reputation the British have abroad as a result, somehow the Irish are just as bad.

Shall we look at some stereotypes of the Irish around the world?

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Fact: we're not. Quit loathing yourselves and get over it and be proud that you aren't nationally associated with such a reputation.

This does not correlate with the assertions you're making.

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Nope. Irish born and bred, to Irish parents, in Ireland, with Irish offspring.
And you?

I hope your children marry into British families just to spite you.

Fratton Fred · 16-04-2012 1:38pm

Cavehill Red wrote: »

The Irish may often be loud and drunk and piss off some locals in all manner of places, but they don't brawl and riot and f uck in public and get themselves arrested for it like the British do.

You should try listening to the Joe Duffy show. According to that it goes on all the time.

I am pie · 16-04-2012 1:43pm

Cavehill Red wrote: »

The FCO and Dept of Foreign Affairs don't break down statistics like that. You're free to google yourself and see what they do provide. I've already treated you to it.

So, no then. You can't back up your prejudices with any evidence....and it's actually the British Foreign Office's fault that you can't.

Marvellous.

Nodin · 16-04-2012 2:04pm

Cavehill Red wrote: »

.......
The Irish may often be loud and drunk and piss off some locals in all manner of places, but they don't brawl and riot and f uck in public and get themselves arrested for it like the British do.

Ladies and gentlemen, what you are seeing is a total disregard for the things St. Patrick's Day stand for. All this drinking, violence, destruction of property. Are these the things we think of when we think of the Irish?

Used happen nearly every Friday and Saturday outside the old Concorde pub in Rathmines...still does in a lot of places round Dublin.

Cavehill Red · 16-04-2012 2:09pm

seanmc1980 wrote: »

Ah i see where your coming from, you fall for the marketing used by foreigners too. "oh your irish we love the irish, you guys are great, now will you buy copious amounts of food, drink and tacky souvenirs while my friends and i laugh at how you believe the **** we tell you to buy our products”
See the tourist trade has copped on to the fact Irish people like to be liked but English don’t care if you like them.
having visiting over a 1/3 of the countries in the world should have i would have though your life experiences would have show irish are a stupid abroad as any other country, we nothing special like we like to think we are

My assertion is not that the Irish are special. I already compared us to the French, Argentinians and Zimbabweans. The special ones are the British. They're the ones with the arrest rate and reputation.

Cavehill Red · 16-04-2012 2:12pm

Jorah wrote: »

Airing what facts? That more Brits are arrested abroad than Irish? I've already stated that British people have won more Nobel Prizes. Does this make the British intellectually superior to the Irish?

It does in the opinion of a small group of Swedish people. National IQ tests would be a better measure.

Jorah wrote: »

I still challenge you on your claim to have visited over a hundred nations.

Is it that you want a list, or are you just jealous? Book it and go, that's my advice. Big world, short life and all that.

Jorah wrote: »

Shall we look at some stereotypes of the Irish around the world?

AH does regularly. Feel free to reprise that conversation if you wish, on a relevant thread.

Jorah wrote: »

This does not correlate with the assertions you're making.

In your opinion.

Jorah wrote: »

I hope your children marry into British families just to spite you.

It wouldn't spite me in the slightest. Two of my siblings already have.

Cavehill Red · 16-04-2012 2:14pm

I am pie wrote: »

So, no then. You can't back up your prejudices with any evidence....and it's actually the British Foreign Office's fault that you can't.

Marvellous.

They're statistics, not prejudices. If you don't like the facts, that's your prejudice. I at least formulate my opinion based on the available data. If you don't like that data, or would prefer some more detail, a freedom of information request might do the trick.

partyguinness · 16-04-2012 2:19pm

Personally I have been in Boston, Dublin and Birmingham on St Patrick's Day (by co-incidence) and quite frankly it is a national embarrassment.

I do not care how our international arrest stats rate compared with the British. We can split hairs on stats all we want bottom line is either way we are pretty much in the same league as the British when it comes the drinking and making a show of ourselves. Who is worse than the other makes no difference. We just need to concentrate on ourselves.

I am sick of having to contradict stereotypes of the Irish over here. Not everyone from Ireland is an alcoholic two bit builder from Cavan who shags his sister.:mad:

Nodin · 16-04-2012 2:19pm

Cavehill Red wrote: »

They're statistics, not prejudices. If you don't like the facts, that's your prejudice. I at least formulate my opinion based on the available data. If you don't like that data, or would prefer some more detail, a freedom of information request might do the trick.

Did you bother to relate the number of arrests vs the size of the respective populations?

Did you relate either to the demographic most likely to travel abroad from each population?

ejmaztec · 16-04-2012 2:20pm

Cavehill Red wrote: »

They're statistics, not prejudices. If you don't like the facts, that's your prejudice. I at least formulate my opinion based on the available data. If you don't like that data, or would prefer some more detail, a freedom of information request might do the trick.

Where does the prejudice come from?

Rastapitts · 16-04-2012 2:21pm

im as british as when i have thought i have something won

I am pie · 16-04-2012 2:24pm

Nodin wrote: »

Did you bother to relate the number of arrests vs the size of the respective populations?

Did you relate either to the demographic most likely to travel abroad from each population?

No & No.

Calling them facts again and again doesn't make them so.

ShaneScouse · 16-04-2012 2:36pm

I like there footy teams and leagues, due to our league being rather pap, mainly due to the size of the british leagues and the influx of foreign players into them Inc.Ireland.
Which in turn weakens the leagues of the countrys where the players leave at the 1st chance.

I hate there media and the circus that seems to surround every sporting event/person etc.
And yes as has been said in this thread brits, esp english people tend to be very very tight and stingy no idea why just in there blood I guess.

Also I dont have anything against the average british person for what happened to Ireland for 800years~. The fault would be with royal family members well dead, goverments in power who are all dead or in retierment homes by now and army officals calling the shots who again are well dead or in a home.
In fact your average english and scottish person has no idea of most of Irish-British history and how it effected us. When films like micheal collins and wind that shakes the barely, or books and plays are done there is a bit of uproar in the UK if they get media attention, due to it painting britian with a bad brush, and making them look bad as if they could never do such a horrid thing to there little drunk neighbour to the west. The fact all of the above are lightweight versions of what happened and a hollywood version of our history so its easy to watch, makes it more ironic.

KeithAFC · 16-04-2012 2:37pm

This thread reminds me to take the Union flag down today and clean it up. Hopefully we can also get it back on topic as I don't know what the last few pages have to do with the OP question.

no1beemerfan · 16-04-2012 2:41pm

Chuck Stone wrote: »

The British?

Ah shure they're a grand bunch of lads.

And women. (I'm married to a British woman)

Mint Sauce · 16-04-2012 2:46pm

English by birth. Dont consider my self British for a second though.

fasttalkerchat · 16-04-2012 2:46pm

Nodin wrote: »

Did you bother to relate the number of arrests vs the size of the respective populations?

Did you relate either to the demographic most likely to travel abroad from each population?

Yes that was all done a few threads back. Please can we move past that. Point taken that the British behave worse than Irish when abroad.
Is there anything to be said relevant to the threat title?

Nodin · 16-04-2012 2:53pm

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Yes that was all done a few threads back. Please can we move past that. Point taken that the British behave worse than Irish when abroad.
Is there anything to be said relevant to the threat title?

Are you the thread police?

fasttalkerchat · 16-04-2012 3:05pm

Nodin wrote: »

Are you the thread police?

Sure you go and take an hour to yourself. Post whatever ****e you want for a few pages then we'll join in again.
Good lad there.

ejmaztec · 16-04-2012 3:19pm

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Sure you go and take an hour to yourself. Post whatever ****e you want for a few pages then we'll join in again.
Good lad there.

I think that started when the thread did.

LordSutch · 16-04-2012 3:39pm

irish-stew wrote: »

English by birth. Dont consider my self British for a second though.

Born in England and not British, so I guess that you're English then, or maybe Irish?

Mint Sauce · 16-04-2012 4:16pm

LordSutch wrote: »

Born in England and not British, so I guess that you're English then, or maybe Irish?

Duel Citizenship. But definatly not British.

spitfireIRL · 16-04-2012 4:35pm

irish-stew wrote: »

LordSutch wrote: »

Born in England and not British, so I guess that you're English then, or maybe Irish?

Duel Citizenship. But definatly not British.

yup same, born in London to Irish parents. wouldn't consider myself English either

LordSutch · 16-04-2012 6:06pm

spitfireIRL wrote: »

yup same, born in London to Irish parents. wouldn't consider myself English either

Interesting, this of course opens up a whole other argumant re where you are born & nationality, take children born in here in Ireland of Polish parentage, are they Polish or Irish? Going by your logic they are Polish (not Irish), although I suspect the reality is much more complicated than that, which may depend on things like how many years you spent there, your sense of belonging & identity, cultural leanings etc.

Nodin · 16-04-2012 6:07pm

LordSutch wrote: »

Interesting, this of course opens up a whole other argumant re where you are born & nationality, take children born in here in Ireland of Polish parentage, are they Polish or Irish? Going by your logic they are Polish (not Irish), although I suspect the reality is much more complicated than that, which may depend on things like how many years you spent there, your sense of belonging & identity, cultural leanings etc.

He's speaking for himself, as he's entitled to do.

Fratton Fred · 16-04-2012 6:10pm

LordSutch wrote: »

Interesting, this of course opens up a whole other argumant re where you are born & nationality, take children born in here in Ireland of Polish parentage, are they Polish or Irish? Going by your logic they are Polish (not Irish), although I suspect the reality is much more complicated than that, which may depend on things like how many years you spent there, your sense of belonging & identity, cultural leanings etc.

I asked someone born in England, to Irish parents did he feel more English or Irish. he said he considers himself a Londoner.

LordSutch · 16-04-2012 7:28pm

Nodin wrote: »

He's speaking for himself, as he's entitled to do.

Well spotted, but as I said in Post#336 "Interesting, this of course opens up a whole other argumant re where you are born & nationality" . . . .

laoch na mona · 16-04-2012 7:38pm

0% sasnach

Cavehill Red · 16-04-2012 10:49pm

Nodin wrote: »

Are you the thread police?

LordSutch wrote: »

Well spotted, but as I said in Post#336 "Interesting, this of course opens up a whole other argumant re where you are born & nationality" . . . .

"Being born in a stable doesn't make you a horse": said, I believe, by a Dublin-born Englishman.

who the fug · 17-04-2012 4:42am

Cavehill Red wrote: »

"Being born in a stable doesn't make you a horse": said, I believe, by a Dublin-born Englishman.

more like said by a kerryman about a meath born jackeen, what had to emigrate to get on

Fratton Fred · 17-04-2012 8:57am

Cavehill Red wrote: »

"Being born in a stable doesn't make you a horse": said, I believe, by a Dublin-born Englishman.

Daniel O'Connell was born in Kerry wasn't he?

Wibbs · 17-04-2012 9:03am

Cavehill Red wrote: »

"Being born in a stable doesn't make you a horse": said, I believe, by a Dublin-born Englishman.

Apparently he never actually said that(If it's Wellington we're speaking of).

paddyandy · 17-04-2012 9:41am

What is exactly British or Irish ??????

Madam · 17-04-2012 9:46am

Dudess wrote: »

Music, TV, film, literature, theatre, sense of humour, journalism, Viz.

Are those really any different from Ireland?

Cavehill Red · 17-04-2012 12:30pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Apparently he never actually said that(If it's Wellington we're speaking of).

I'm rather gratified to hear that, if it's the case. It always irked me that Dublin boasts a large monument to a man notorious for disowning the place of his own birth in such a derogatory fashion. This fact should be more widely publicised.

Dub Ste · 17-04-2012 12:53pm

LordSutch wrote: »

Born in England and not British, so I guess that you're English then, or maybe Irish?

Not sure,ask Phil Lynott,Shane McGowan,Paul McGrath,Sean Moncrieff maybe??

Wibbs · 17-04-2012 3:44pm

Cavehill Red wrote: »

I'm rather gratified to hear that, if it's the case. It always irked me that Dublin boasts a large monument to a man notorious for disowning the place of his own birth in such a derogatory fashion. This fact should be more widely publicised.

I agree. In fact it was Daniel O'Connell who said it of Wellingtons Irish birth. Wellington never made such a comparison. Wellington for his part suffered a lot of public outcry over his resolute support for Catholic emancipation, with his detractors screaming about his support for "popery". He was no republican, he saw himself as British(as did many Irish men and women at the time and not just Protestant), but he was no Cromwell either.

Cavehill Red · 17-04-2012 10:53pm

Wibbs wrote: »

I agree. In fact it was Daniel O'Connell who said it of Wellingtons Irish birth. Wellington never made such a comparison. Wellington for his part suffered a lot of public outcry over his resolute support for Catholic emancipation, with his detractors screaming about his support for "popery". He was no republican, he saw himself as British(as did many Irish men and women at the time and not just Protestant), but he was no Cromwell either.

The version I think I heard was that it had been said by Wellington in response to barracking from the opposition in parliament over his place of birth.
Interesting that it was actually O'Connell who said it of him.