Should horse racing be banned?

byhookorbycrook

xzanti wrote: »

I didn't watch the race, I don't watch racing at all but I've heard it brought up in conversations (was at a 30th last night and it was a popular topic) that the horse looked nervous and agitated at the beginning of the race..

Ok, back to the little fat cob again.You should see him dance and shy when he is out waiting to start at a cross country competition.I'm sure to a person who knows nothing about horses that he looks "nervous and agitated". Yes, he is agitated, raring to go, not because he doesn't want to, so much so that he hardly waits his turn.If I wanted to ascribe a feeeling to him it would be "yipeeee" but I can't honestly say it's what he's thinking. I think people are applying too many of their imagined human feelings to a horse.

mystika121

I have to say I totally disagree that a horse cannot be forced to do something that he does not want to do.

It's a daily occurrence for most people who work with horses to have to find a way to encourage a horse to do something that he doesn't want to do.

Most horses try their best for an owner/rider and their schooling has ensured that they often have to trust their rider over their own instincts.

kfallon

xzanti wrote: »

Humans

So? Do you think none of them should have played because of nerves? Athletes, whether human or equine, get nerves before a big event, it's not uncommon. You often see horses sweat before big races but still run their race.

xzanti

kfallon wrote: »

Got stats to back that up?

A quick Google search as yielded this..

The deaths of According To Pete and Synchronised bring the number of horses killed at the Grand National in the past 50 years to 36. Including Saturday’s deaths, 41 horses have been killed on UK racecourses this year.

41 in 50 years, while not astronomical, in my eyes is a significant loss of life for the sake of entertainment.

Seamus145

No

kfallon

mystika121 wrote: »

I have to say I totally disagree that a horse cannot be forced to do something that he does not want to do.

look at the GN start in 2010 and King John's Castle.

Watch Sariska in the Yorkshire Oaks 2010

xzanti

xzanti wrote: »

A quick Google search as yielded this..



41 in 50 years, while not astronomical, in my eyes is a significant loss of life for the sake of entertainment.

41 on UK tracks this year. Not 50 years.

UrbanSea

xzanti wrote: »

A quick Google search as yielded this..



41 in 50 years, while not astronomical, in my eyes is a significant loss of life for the sake of entertainment.

36 have died in 50 years of the National. 36 out of 2000+ runners is not a huge number

Chucky the tree

xzanti wrote: »

No, I am a meat eater.. but I don't watch cows being slaughtered for entertainment on a Sunday afternoon.. I know that animals die every day on farms and in abattoirs.. but they are killed for food, not for sport..

I think there is a difference..

Again, let me reiterate, I know they don't ALL die on the track.. but it seems to be quite common.

They are killed for your enjoyment. You don't eat them simply because they are food, you eat because you enjoy the taste. You could easily survive without meat, but you don't want to. 6 horses die per 1,000 horses in steeple-chase racing, I don't think that alot. Not to menion how many horses would be killed if they did ban horse racing? People simply wouldn't be able to keep them.

mystika121

There is a huge difference between a little cob about to tackle a cross country course and a tb about to race. If the little cob suffered a very bad experience on a cross country course and was then asked to repeat the experience again then the 'yippee' feeling might be somewhat diminished.

kfallon

xzanti wrote: »

41 in 50 years, while not astronomical, in my eyes is a significant loss of life for the sake of entertainment.

It's 36 in 50 years, that's 36 from around 2,000 runners. I agree it's 36 too many and as I said I'm not a fan of the GN.

It's 41 in UK racecourses this year, how many runners have there been in that period?

xzanti

Deleted User wrote: »

41 on UK tracks this year. Not 50 years.

Mea culpa, I read it wrong..

Even worse.

UrbanSea

xzanti wrote: »

Mea culpa, I read it wrong..

Even worse.

Yet still a ridiculously small percentage to runners.

byhookorbycrook

mystika121 wrote: »

There is a huge difference between a little cob about to tackle a cross country course and a tb about to race. If the little cob suffered a very bad experience on a cross country course and was then asked to repeat the experience again then the 'yippee' feeling might be somewhat diminished.

Apart from breeding and a bigger girth, no, not really.:D
I know he isn't in fear from a bad experience as I know his history from the day he foaled. He adores being out at cross country, once there are no sheep too close at hand.And no matter what I try, he just will not hack out past a field of sheep,so I can encourage him to do things like go on the bit, but no amount of encouragement will make him pass the sheep. anyway, not really meaning to get into his foibles, but my point stands,a horse will not do things unless he wants to-whether as you think-to please the rider or otherwise.

Nulty

From Paul Bittar - Chief Executive of the British Horseracing Authority

It is important these matters be judged over a period of time. The decade since 2000 was the safest on record for the Grand National with a fatality rate of 1.5 per cent compared to 3.3 per cent at the start of the 1990s.

The stats say the race is safer than it used to be and horseracing as an industry is trying to make it safer. It will never be sterile. Nothing is without risk. "Theres no such thing as a certainty in horseracing" - or any thing else for that matter.

mystika121

That's sweet about the cob - he sounds like a great chap.

My point about racehorses though is that frequently in both flat and races over fences you see a horse that won't enter the starting stalls or won't approach the tape. I have only once seen a horse scratched from the race because of this.

The normal proceedure is for the horse to be blindfolded and led into the stalls or in the case of the steeplechase/hurdle race I have seen on telly a group of course officials chase the horse through the start!

Now if that's not forcing a horse to do something that he doesn't want to do then I don't know what that could be called.

mystika121

I don't think that the race will ever be banned and I think only token efforts are made each year to improve safety.

When Best Mate died (Best Mate collapsed and died of a suspected heart attack after being pulled up by jockey Paul Carberry whilst competing in the William Hill Haldon Gold Cup at Exeter Racecourse on November 1, 2005.) I always remember his trainer Henrietta Knight, who I had huge respect for saying that where there is livestock there is deadstock. I was shocked at the time but I feel that it sums up how the racing world feels about horses.

There will always be injuries and fatalities in racing and I believe that the racing world accepts that. It is only when people within the racing world complains that any lasting changes will be made.

kfallon

mystika121 wrote: »

I don't think that the race will ever be banned and I think only token efforts are made each year to improve safety.

When Best Mate died I always remember his trainer Henrietta Knight, who I had huge respect for saying that where there is livestock there is deadstock. I was shocked at the time but I feel that it sums up how the racing world feels about horses.

There will always be injuries and fatalities in racing and I believe that the racing world accepts that. It is only when people within the racing world complains that any lasting changes will be made.

Just to clarify, Best Mate died from a heart attack and not from running/jumping in The Grand National

calfmuscle

Seomra Mushie wrote: »

I find this thread interesting because it's amazing how defensive some defenders of horse-racing are, to the point of getting stroppy and insulting people. Why so defensive? If you are assured in your position, why?

People in racing get defensive because they love their animals, they love their jobs and they love racing. Yet people ignorant (Lacking knowledge, information or awareness about something in particular:) of racing come out every so often and accuse them of being cruel, heartless and motivated by money alone. You have to make sacrifices to work in racing and its hard graft day in day out. The wages are s**t* in fact a lot of the work involves s**t* but you get up every morning and do your work because of the love of horses. So its pretty annoying to listen to people who dont have a clue accuse you of being rich toff or a cruel jockey!

Huntley wrote: »

Makes for interesting reading from somebody who describes horse racing as "seeing animals forced to run and whipped for people's entertainment".

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=71230251

That is hilarious! I remember being so annoyed when reading those comments!

Mal-Adjusted

calfmuscle wrote: »

People in racing get defensive because they love their animals, they love their jobs and they love racing. Yet people ignorant (Lacking knowledge, information or awareness about something in particular:) of racing come out every so often and accuse them of being cruel, heartless and motivated by money alone...its pretty annoying to listen to people who dont have a clue accuse you of being rich toff or a cruel jockey!

It's arrogant to assume people who don't share or opinions are ignorant or don't know what they're talking about.

byhookorbycrook

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, however ill-informed it is, however,people pontificating on the self same subject,whilst knowing nothing about it are likely to be challenged.

Mal-Adjusted

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, however ill-informed it is, however,people pontificating on the self same subject,whilst knwoing nothing about it are likely to be challenged.

which could be said for either side of the debate

calfmuscle

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

It's arrogant to assume people who don't share or opinions are ignorant or don't know what they're talking about.

Its not arrogant its fact, If I tell you 2 + 2 = 4 and you argue its 5, then you are ignorant of basic summation.

losthorizon

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

This comes up every year after the Grand National. I don't think racing in general should be banned, but I wouldn't miss the Grand National if it was gone. I like a bet from time to time, but there's too many horses in the field and the fences are just ridiculously big. I know it's meant to be the ultimate test, but it just ends up as complete carnage with horses dying almost every year.

Synchronized won the Gold Cup at Cheltenham last month, and had to be destroyed today which is gutting and such a waste of a promising horse (eerily, the horse threw off Tony McCoy before the race, and seemed very stressed beforehand). Then According To Pete, who was jumping beautifully throughout didn't even fall, but was brought down by another horse. This is a horse bred and raised by a man at his home in Yorkshire. The same man said that he didn't expect the horse to win, but to just put in a good show and come home safely. It's a terribly sad story.

Over 20 horses have died in the Grand National since 2000. If they scrapped the thing after this, I wouldn't object.

One of the most intelligent posts Ive read. Nothing against Horse racing or over Hurdles or Jumps but I think that the Grand National is too much.

WE are an Intelligent species - we don't need this. I used to enjoy watching it. Now it just disgusts me.


Surely Trainers and Jockeys must think the same? They work with these gifted animals all the time.

slowmoe

If you lower the jumps you make the race faster, speed is just as dangerous as height in a horse race. I wish there were fewer horses in the race, so sad when one takes another out. I'm amazed that the jockeys aren't getting killed

Canis Lupus

I don't understand why I can't have an opinion on horse racing because I don't watch it..

Personally I don't understand why people endanger an animal for entertainment.

Oscars Well.

Banning it would be ridiculous. Only a very small percentage of horses sustain injuries on the track. Do you really think people that watch one ten minute race a year know or care more about horses than those that look after them 365 days a year? :rolleyes:

Juwwi

Do people who want horse racing banned think all the horses would
live in fields and have a better life than racing each other.

The reality is without horse racing these horses would'nt of been breed
so they would never of existed.

What is better for them being born as a racehorse or never be born.

Canis Lupus

robbie1977 wrote: »

Do people who want horse racing banned think all the horses would
live in fields and have a better life than racing each other.

The reality is without horse racing these horses would'nt of been breed
so they would never of existed.

What is better for them being born as a racehorse or never be born.

That a serious argument?

Juwwi

Canis Lupus wrote: »

That a serious argument?

Its not an arguement what Im saying is people seem to think these horses
would have a better life if they did'nt have to race and what Im saying is they would'nt because there would'nt be any of them.

Duggys Housemate

Canis Lupus wrote: »

robbie1977 wrote: »

Do people who want horse racing banned think all the horses would
live in fields and have a better life than racing each other.

The reality is without horse racing these horses would'nt of been breed
so they would never of existed.

What is better for them being born as a racehorse or never be born.

That a serious argument?

Yes, horses would become extinct.

Oscars Well.

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Yes, horses would become extinct.

He means thoroughbreds...

Duggys Housemate

Oscars Well. wrote: »

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Yes, horses would become extinct.

He means thoroughbreds...

Thoroughbreds definitely.

Mr.Biscuits

A lot of nonsense posted from people who no doubt tuck into rashers and sausages that come from animals forced to live in atrocious conditions. Ditto for the vast majority of chicken consumed in this country and throughout Europe. Give me the life of a racehorse in the UK any-day over the "life" that they have to endure.

As for whether or not it should be banned: if it was banned, what would become of all the national hunt racehorses in training? Would they still be housed in such luxurious stables and getting the best veterinarian care that money can buy if they weren't paying their way (with prize money)? Not a chance would they - it would be off to the glue factory with the vast majority of them.

In short: save your pity for animals that really could do with it. Where it could make a difference and maybe when they're dealt with, then you can start to worry about racehorses that are living the life, albeit on rare occasions, an idyllic life cut somewhat short.

Del2005

robbie1977 wrote: »

Its not an arguement what Im saying is people seem to think these horses
would have a better life if they did'nt have to race and what Im saying is they would'nt because there would'nt be any of them.

True there are already too many (race) horses which people can't afford to keep and train. If they ban jump racing then there would be no need for them and the best result for the horse is the knackers yard.

Horse racing is a business, in all businesses non performing assets are disposed of at least costs to the business.

calfmuscle

Del2005 wrote: »

True there are already too many (race) horses which people can't afford to keep and train. If they ban jump racing then there would be no need for them and the best result for the horse is the knackers yard.

Horse racing is a business, in all businesses non performing assets are disposed of at least costs to the business.

This is true in some cases, but the majority of owners and trainers either let the horse retire to stud, be kept as a lead horse, companion horse or go on to be used in eventing, showjumping or pleasure riding etc.
I know a good few people who have given their ex race horses to polo and polo cross yards.

Its really not just "shot gun and cheque book".

I've worked in a lot of yards and can say I have only seen an owner send horses to the factory once and that was in New Zealand.

sunnyjo41

my opinion - no should not be banned it what they trained to do - reduction in the amount of entrants for grand national should be reduced as jockies have no room to move

smokedeels

zerks wrote: »

Lets ban all sports on health & safety grounds:rolleyes:.I hate to be callous but they are only horses.When an animal dies we get all the animal rights loons coming out of the woodwork.

A footballer in Italy died today from a heart attack while playing for Livorno,should we ban football?

The horses don't have a choice in the matter

Oscars Well.

smokedeels wrote: »

The horses don't have a choice in the matter

You can't force a horse to race. If they didn't want to race they'd stand still at the start or refuse to jump a fence/hurdle.

smokedeels

Oscars Well. wrote: »

You can't force a horse to race. If they didn't want to race they'd stand still at the start or refuse to jump a fence/hurdle.

What happens to a horse that refuses to race?

lividduck

smokedeels wrote: »

What happens to a horse that refuses to race?

It gets a verbal warning, if it refuses again it gets a written warning:D

Oscars Well.

smokedeels wrote: »

What happens to a horse that refuses to race?

Nothing... He refuses to race, is brought back to the stables and they'll try again the next time he runs

smokedeels

Oscars Well. wrote: »

Nothing... He refuses to race, is brought back to the stables and they'll try again the next time he runs

Is there a point when the owner considers them a lost cause and what would happen to such a horse?

awec

smokedeels wrote: »

Is there a point when the owner considers them a lost cause and what would happen to such a horse?

Become a stud most likely. Or sold off.

Discodog

UrbanSea wrote: »

This is another ignorant argument.

If a horse does not want to run, it will not run. Look at King John's Castle in the National. Sariska used to stand in the stalls. Look up a filly named Memory. The list is endless.

The Jockey is able to weigh up & assess the risk whereas the Horse isn't. It is trained to follow it's riders directions so it depends on the rider to keep it safe.

The one good thing about these threads is that, when friends ask about the attitude of Ireland towards animal welfare, I can link to threads like this.

Discodog

awec wrote: »

Become a stud most likely. Or sold off.

So a Horse that refuses to race & therefore doesn't get a history of wins gets sold off when there is such an oversupply of horses or put to stud :rolleyes:

Canis Lupus

Oscars Well. wrote: »

You can't force a horse to race. If they didn't want to race they'd stand still at the start or refuse to jump a fence/hurdle.

But horses aren't tremendously bright. They don't stand at the start of a race weighing up the likelihood of whether they'll have a fall and break a leg, nor are they aware that if that happens it won't be a happy ending for them. They're animals trained by humans to race. We, as the thinking party should ask ourselves are we willing to put an animal at risk purely for entertainment.

Oscars Well.

smokedeels wrote: »

Is there a point when the owner considers them a lost cause and what would happen to such a horse?

Yes, happened to a pretty high profile horse a few years ago called Sariska. She was a multiple group 1 winner and refused to race a few times and was retired. This was on the flat, not National Hunt btw. The same would apply in NH, but NH horses are gelded so couldn't be used in breeding, apart from the mares who can become broodmares.

Nulty

Discodog wrote: »

So a Horse that refuses to race & therefore doesn't get a history of wins gets sold off when there is such an oversupply of horses or put to stud :rolleyes:

You not talking just about horse racing then. All livestock based industry destroys animals that are not profitable. Whether you think its right or not that is what happens with all animals in livestock industries.

mr.jingle

Discodog wrote: »

So a Horse that refuses to race & therefore doesn't get a history of wins gets sold off when there is such an oversupply of horses or put to stud :rolleyes:

So what do you suggest? Slaughter the horse? Sure that's better than cancelling the National:rolleyes: