Should horse racing be banned?

Duggys Housemate

Discodog wrote: »

UrbanSea wrote: »

This is another ignorant argument.

If a horse does not want to run, it will not run. Look at King John's Castle in the National. Sariska used to stand in the stalls. Look up a filly named Memory. The list is endless.

The Jockey is able to weigh up & assess the risk whereas the Horse isn't. It is trained to follow it's riders directions so it depends on the rider to keep it safe.

The one good thing about these threads is that, when friends ask about the attitude of Ireland towards animal welfare, I can link to threads like this.

The Grand National is English. You antis have no case. The fact that without horse racing horses would become extinct, or very nearly, is presented time and time again and you refuse to engage. You accuse people who work with horses of being animal haters without cause.


Its all moot.

An industry where Ireland is a world leader is not going to change because of a few keyboard warrior vegans

Oscars Well.

Canis Lupus wrote: »

But horses aren't tremendously bright. They don't stand at the start of a race weighing up the likelihood of whether they'll have a fall and break a leg, nor are they aware that if that happens it won't be a happy ending for them. They're animals trained by humans to race. We, as the thinking party should ask ourselves are we willing to put an animal at risk purely for entertainment.

No matter how smart an animal is or isn't, they will refuse to do something they don't want to do. A horse will recognise they are on a racetrack and know what they are about to do. Again, we can come back to the argument that thousands of horses run races annually and only a minimal amount sustain fatal injuries, or just injuries for that matter.

Duggys Housemate

Canis Lupus wrote: »

Oscars Well. wrote: »

You can't force a horse to race. If they didn't want to race they'd stand still at the start or refuse to jump a fence/hurdle.

But horses aren't tremendously bright. They don't stand at the start of a race weighing up the likelihood of whether they'll have a fall and break a leg, nor are they aware that if that happens it won't be a happy ending for them. They're animals trained by humans to race. We, as the thinking party should ask ourselves are we willing to put an animal at risk purely for entertainment.

Oh FFS. you the "thinking party" of mediocre smug vegans wouldn't know one end of a horse from another.

Canis Lupus

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Oh FFS. you the "thinking party" of mediocre smug vegans wouldn't know one end of a horse from another.

Throwing insults doesn't do much to persuade me to your side of the argument.

smokedeels

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

The Grand National is English. You antis have no case. The fact that without horse racing horses would become extinct, or very nearly, is presented time and time again and you refuse to engage. You accuse people who work with horses of being animal haters without cause.


Its all moot.

An industry where Ireland is a world leader is not going to change because of a few keyboard warrior vegans

I don't see what diet has to do with it, personally I don't eat meat but I don't argue for animal slaughter to end - only a fantasist would bother to - I just don't avail of it.

I guess I have the same stance in regardless to sports that use animals, but I would hope that the industry operates with the animals best interests in mind, which is far from moot, it's a worthwhile conversation.

mongoman

My name is URL wrote: »

Should horse racing be banned?

Yes.

TeddyTedson

The Grand National is a bit of a disgrace nowadays I think. It's four miles long for christ sake with 30 jumps. They should at least half the race. Nobody really enjoys the long draw out part of it anyway.
Watching it yesterday I was almost squeamish at every jump.
I've really gone off it. I don't thinking anyone can really argue that it's not cruel.
To stress before someone slate me I'm not for banning it completely, but changes could and should be made.

Canis Lupus

Oscars Well. wrote: »

No matter how smart an animal is or isn't, they will refuse to do something they don't want to do. A horse will recognise they are on a racetrack and know what they are about to do. Again, we can come back to the argument that thousands of horses run races annually and only a minimal amount sustain fatal injuries, or just injuries for that matter.

But horses are trained from an early age. Get an animal young enough and you can make it do all sorts of ridiculous things. I appreciate the vast number of races pass without incident but I just don't like the thought of an animal suffering an accident and having to be put down through something that's solely for human entertainment.

mr.jingle

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

An industry where Ireland is a world leader is not going to change because of a few keyboard warrior vegans

Most of them are more than likely not even vegans tucking into there nice Sunday roast FFS, a joke thread made by people who don't have a clue what goes on in horse racing and make there mind up because they lost €2 on one Saturday of the year.

Yes two horses died in what was actually accidental circumstances one was brought down the other injured itself after falling and running off loose. Yes the National brings the added danger but the horses are trained accordingly the don't just turn up and be told to jump them fences they are specifically trained over fences such as the ones they jumped on Saturday. They have tried to make it safer and as has been said there the have dropped the fatality rate in the 2000's. Horses die day in day out just like people do thats life so to speak so get over it!

mystika121

Oscars Well. wrote: »

Nothing... He refuses to race, is brought back to the stables and they'll try again the next time he runs

Put 'Jockey headbutts horse' into YouTube to get an idea of what can happen to a horse when there is trouble at the start of a race!

KamiKazeKitten

Canis Lupus wrote: »

But horses are trained from an early age. Get an animal young enough and you can make it do all sorts of ridiculous things. I appreciate the vast number of races pass without incident but I just don't like the thought of an animal suffering an accident and having to be put down through something that's solely for human entertainment.

Have you ever ridden a horse? If they genuinely do not want to do something they won't, simple as, and you can't make them. No matter how much schooling you do with them.

I used to showjump, there were times that the horse would not go and so we didn't compete. Equally, there are times that the horse balked at something, and still jumped the round. You think I should have just given up on the competition then and there?
They spook at anything! And this was no highly strung racehorse I was riding.

Oscars Well.

TeddyTedson wrote: »

The Grand National is a bit of a disgrace nowadays I think. It's four miles long for christ sake with 30 jumps. They should at least half the race. Nobody really enjoys the long draw out part of it anyway.

It's 4 and a half miles The Grand National is meant to be the ultimate stamina test for a horse. Reducing it's length would completely take away the meaning of the race.

Oscars Well.

mystika121 wrote: »

Put 'Jockey headbutts horse' into YouTube to get an idea of what can happen to a horse when there is trouble at the start of a race!

You can't tar the whole industry with one brush because some idiot does that. The jockey was banned by the Horse Racing Authority, which is correct as there is no place for such idiotic actions in racing.

TeddyTedson

KamiKazeKitten wrote: »

Have you ever ridden a horse? If they genuinely do not want to do something they won't, simple as, and you can't make them. No matter how much schooling you do with them.

I used to showjump, there were times that the horse would not go and so we didn't compete. Equally, there are times that the horse balked at something, and still jumped the round. You think I should have just given up on the competition then and there?
They spook at anything! And this was no highly strung racehorse I was riding.

Some horse just can't be broken in all right.
Also even the most quiet horses can surprise you.
I was throw off a very quiet horse and kicked by another.
You see it at the horse show every year, a horse just won't go for them on the day.

TeddyTedson

Oscars Well. wrote: »

It's 4 and a half miles The Grand National is meant to be the ultimate stamina test for a horse. Reducing it's length would completely take away the meaning of the race.

Oh four and a half is it.
Still though, I just can't approve the idea behind this race. Do you think it's cruel yourself?

Borders no.2

I'm no racing fan (if it was up to me it'd be banned) but really its up to the punters, there is a big demand for racing among the public so it'll continue. Its like Boxing some will say it should be banned but there's an audience for it so it will continue.

However, I do believe there should be some laws brought forward from within the racing industy to stop greedy owners/trainers etc. from allowing a horse who won/ran in the Cheltenham Gold Cup (or similar race) run in the Grand National a matter of weeks later. I felt that way before the race and wasn't surprised at the fate that befell that wonderful horse who despite giving his owner/trainer some big paydays was ultimately let down by these same people.

The majority of trainers are responsible and know that as the pinnacle of the year, the horses training should be geared towards Cheltenham and then give the horse time to recover before using a few races to lead into Cheltenham again the following year.

awec

Discodog wrote: »

So a Horse that refuses to race & therefore doesn't get a history of wins gets sold off when there is such an oversupply of horses or put to stud :rolleyes:

As opposed to what?

Oscars Well.

TeddyTedson wrote: »

Oh four and a half is it.
Still though, I just can't approve the idea behind this race. Do you think it's cruel yourself?

As pointed out earlier, horses aren't just told to jump these fences when they turn up, they've had endless hours schooling over them. The two deaths this year were very unfortunate. Synchronised was injured as a result of running loose, AccordingToPete was brought down by a horse falling in front of him. I don't think it's cruel, but I do agree that reducing the number of runners may minimise the risk of falling/sustaining injuries.

KamiKazeKitten

awec wrote: »

As opposed to what?

The slaughterhouse is where most end up I'd guess.
If the horse has no track record, why would anyone want him at stud?

From experience with them, racehorses are not usually cut out to be family pets.

And in a recession, not that many people want to take on a horse! They are expensive pets.

Cheeky_gal

Hilarious thread.

People who have no idea about horse racing hear of two horses having to be destroyed and they log onto boards and talk about how cruel it is and suggest horse racing be banned :rolleyes:

I wonder if these people were sitting at home crying all day about Synchronised and According to Pete? Doubtful

Oscars Well.

[QUOTE=Borders no.2;78145618
However, I do believe there should be some laws brought forward from within the racing industy to stop greedy owners/trainers etc. from allowing a horse who won/ran in the Cheltenham Gold Cup (or similar race) run in the Grand National a matter of weeks later.
[/QUOTE]

There is no way JP McManus or John Joe O'Neill would have let Synchronised run if he wasn't 100%. SunnyHillBoy also ran at Cheltenham and finished second, beaten by a shorthead.

mystika121

Oscars Well. wrote: »

You can't tar the whole industry with one brush because some idiot does that. The jockey was banned by the Horse Racing Authority, which is correct as there is no place for such idiotic actions in racing.

He was only banned for one day by the Horse Racing Authority- that's a mere wrist slap!

In another disclipinary hearing around the same time a jockey was banned for 10 days for being rude to a racing steward.

Just goes to show where the priorities of the Horse Racing Authoity lie . . .

KamiKazeKitten

TeddyTedson wrote: »

Some horse just can't be broken in all right.
Also even the most quiet horses can surprise you.
I was throw off a very quiet horse and kicked by another.
You see it at the horse show every year, a horse just won't go for them on the day.

Exactly, one of the worst falls I've ever had was from a sweet little pony who was normally good as gold. They can be moody creatures. I've been bitten, kicked, stood on, you name it...if a horse does not want to do what is being asked they won't.

Oscars Well.

mystika121 wrote: »

He was only banned for one day by the Horse Racing Authority- that's a mere wrist slap!

In another disclipinary hearing around the same time a jockey was banned for 10 days for being rude to a racing steward.

Just goes to show where the priorities of the Horse Racing Authoity lie . . .

I completely agree it was disgraceful he was only banned for a day, there is no room in the industry for such behaviour. However, 99% of those involved in racing wouldn't dream of intentionally harming a horse.

awec

Oscars Well. wrote: »

As pointed out earlier, horses aren't just told to jump these fences when they turn up, they've had endless hours schooling over them. The two deaths this year were very unfortunate. Synchronised was injured as a result of running loose, AccordingToPete was brought down by a horse falling in front of him. I don't think it's cruel, but I do agree that reducing the number of runners may minimise the risk of falling/sustaining injuries.

Exactly.

To be honest, I don't see the need to have 40 runners. Even half that would be plenty.

xzanti

Cheeky_gal wrote: »

Hilarious thread.

People who have no idea about horse racing hear of two horses having to be destroyed and they log onto boards and talk about how cruel it is and suggest horse racing be banned :rolleyes:

Yeah, next they'll be calling for breastfeeding in public to be banned.. hilarious indeed.

byhookorbycrook

awec wrote: »

Become a stud most likely. Or sold off.

Provided he is still entire and not gelded.

awec

awec wrote: »

Oscars Well. wrote: »

As pointed out earlier, horses aren't just told to jump these fences when they turn up, they've had endless hours schooling over them. The two deaths this year were very unfortunate. Synchronised was injured as a result of running loose, AccordingToPete was brought down by a horse falling in front of him. I don't think it's cruel, but I do agree that reducing the number of runners may minimise the risk of falling/sustaining injuries.

Exactly.

To be honest, I don't see the need to have 40 runners. Even half that would be plenty.

Come on! The bookies need the 40 horses in one race so they can maximize profits.

Cheeky_gal

xzanti wrote: »

Yeah, next they'll be calling for breastfeeding in public to be banned.. hilarious indeed.

Fingers crossed on that one

Borders no.2

Oscars Well. wrote: »

There is no way JP McManus or John Joe O'Neill would have let Synchronised run if he wasn't 100%. SunnyHillBoy also ran at Cheltenham and finished second, beaten by a shorthead.

By no coincidence with the same owner and trainer. How well the horse did is irrelevant. I'm sure Synchronised would have done ok if he'd stayed standing but at 9 years old the trainer and owner need to be picking their races. Could you have seen Best Mate being run in this race when he was after winning his 3rd gold cup at 9 years of age?

Also I believe there is a big bonus on offer for winning the two races? (not sure on that). JP is a business man first and foremost.

Ultimately its a ruthless business with little sentiment buth there are much greater issues facing animal welfare.

Ultimately while I'm no fan, its up to spectators, if they keep turning up then the industry will prosper and its good for the economy I suppose, even today it seems like there was a linkup with China and Coolmore which will be hugely beneficial.

mr.jingle

Deleted User wrote: »

Come on! The bookies need the 40 horses in one race so they can maximize profits.

The bookies will have no input whatsoever there still going to get the same amount of business no matter how many are in the race. Most people will always back in the National, ALWAYS! By this time next year when the Natioanls about to be run again i can nearly guarantee that most of the people asking for it to be banned over the next few days will have a small flutter on the race and watch it like they do every other year.

Nulty

Borders no.2 wrote: »

By no coincidence with the same owner and trainer. How well the horse did is irrelevant. I'm sure Synchronised would have done ok if he'd stayed standing but at 9 years old the trainer and owner need to be picking their races. Could you have seen Best Mate being run in this race when he was after winning his 3rd gold cup at 9 years of age?

Also I believe there is a big bonus on offer for winning the two races? (not sure on that). JP is a business man first and foremost.

Ultimately its a ruthless business with little sentiment buth there are much greater issues facing animal welfare.

Ultimately while I'm no fan, its up to spectators, if they keep turning up then the industry will prosper and its good for the economy I suppose, even today it seems like there was a linkup with China and Coolmore which will be hugely beneficial.

Seriously, you have no idea what your talking about. (Except for the last paragraph.)

Borders no.2

Nulty wrote: »

Seriously, you have no idea what your talking about. (Except for the last paragraph.)

Could you please inform me so, I'd love to be enlightened.

awec

Deleted User wrote: »

Come on! The bookies need the 40 horses in one race so they can maximize profits.

Less horses doesn't mean less profits at the bookies. People will still bet, they'll just have less horses to choose from.

If anything it'll make it more enticing, trying to wrap your head around 40 runners is a big ask.

mr.jingle

Borders no.2 wrote: »

By no coincidence with the same owner and trainer. How well the horse did is irrelevant. I'm sure Synchronised would have done ok if he'd stayed standing but at 9 years old the trainer and owner need to be picking their races. Could you have seen Best Mate being run in this race when he was after winning his 3rd gold cup at 9 years of age?

Comparing the two of them horses is like chalk and cheese. One was purposely wrapped in wool by his trainer and was set out for specific races through the season. Synchronized was very much a winner unexpectedly of a Grade 1 in Ireland before winning the Gold Cup with the Grand National his intended target before both those wins in Ireland and at Cheltenham. Two completely different animals in different era's that are not comparable.

He was very much improved a horse this season so the chance of winning a National was there for all to see they may have never got another chance of winning the National with even if he stayed alive

Nulty

Best Mate didn't run in the National because he wasn't a national horse. He was handicapped to his best form and he was never entered in the race because he was always aimed at the Gold Cup and only the Gold Cup.

JP McManus doesn't need the money and spends more money on buying bad horses, running bad horses and keeping bad horses than makes fiscal sense. Its a hobby of his.

Horse racing is a business yes. There are people whos income relies on the industry but it is ultimately an entertainment industry. Anyone buying racehorses knows there is a slim chance of making money from it. People do it cause they love racing and love horses.

Nulty

Was anyone watching Keenland just there on ATR?

Flat race horse just jumped over the inside rail.

Horses can be insane.

Borders no.2

mr.jingle wrote: »

Comparing the two of them horses is like chalk and cheese. One was purposely wrapped in wool by his trainer and was set out for specific races through the season. Synchronized was very much a winner unexpectedly of a Grade 1 in Ireland before winning the Gold Cup with the Grand National his intended target before both those wins in Ireland and at Cheltenham. Two completely different animals in different era's that are not comparable.

Thanks for that. Fair enough, just have to agree to disagree with ye I suppose ye are obviously racing fans. Its an internal issue for the people in the industry including spectators to shape the sport the want.

UrbanSea

Borders no.2 wrote: »

By no coincidence with the same owner and trainer. How well the horse did is irrelevant. I'm sure Synchronised would have done ok if he'd stayed standing but at 9 years old the trainer and owner need to be picking their races. Could you have seen Best Mate being run in this race when he was after winning his 3rd gold cup at 9 years of age?

Also I believe there is a big bonus on offer for winning the two races? (not sure on that). JP is a business man first and foremost.

Ultimately its a ruthless business with little sentiment buth there are much greater issues facing animal welfare.

Ultimately while I'm no fan, its up to spectators, if they keep turning up then the industry will prosper and its good for the economy I suppose, even today it seems like there was a linkup with China and Coolmore which will be hugely beneficial.

That part is totally untrue. JP owns hundreds of racehorses, he loses an absolute fortune in racing, but he is in it for the love of the game. If he wanted to make money from racing he'd be buying sons of Galileo and opening a stud, not gelded handicap hurdlers with a rating of 90.

Discodog

A friend of mine breaks & trains horses. She jokes that she could go to the Cliffs of Moher, get on the horse & get it to jump over the edge. That is the trust that a good rider builds in their horse.

The horses have no idea what fate or risk awaits them. They rely on humans & they often get let down.

Again all these comparisons between farm animals & racehorses. One is food production & business, the other is entertainment & business. Whatever your dietary desires the cow dies to feed people whereas the race horse dies to provide fun & betting/prize income.

Chucky the tree

Discodog wrote: »

A friend of mine breaks & trains horses. She jokes that she could go to the Cliffs of Moher, get on the horse & get it to jump over the edge. That is the trust that a good rider builds in their horse.

The horses have no idea what fate or risk awaits them. They rely on humans & they often get let down.

Again all these comparisons between farm animals & racehorses. One is food production & business, the other is entertainment & business. Whatever your dietary desires the cow dies to feed people whereas the race horse dies to provide fun & betting/prize income.

Food is entertainment. I don't know anyone and have never meet anyone who eats a type of meat they enjoy the taste of.

ppink

For those who may be interested and speaking about jumps being dangerous etc there were 3 horses killed duing Dubai's Gold Cup last week.........on the flat!

calfmuscle

Discodog wrote: »

A friend of mine breaks & trains horses. She jokes that she could go to the Cliffs of Moher, get on the horse & get it to jump over the edge. That is the trust that a good rider builds in their horse.

The horses have no idea what fate or risk awaits them. They rely on humans & they often get let down.

Again all these comparisons between farm animals & racehorses. One is food production & business, the other is entertainment & business. Whatever your dietary desires the cow dies to feed people whereas the race horse dies to provide fun & betting/prize income.

Your friend has an awful sense of humour and inflated ego. Horses are very intelligent and regularly refuse to do things.

The horses know exactly what they are doing and what is going on. They get excited because they are anticipating the race or their dinner or they saw the horse box being hitched.

Why do you think the jockeys show them the first fence???

LH Pathe

Yes ban this.. pageantry of grotesque. Nevermind the horses!! without betting it would not survive.. neither would my bum uncles who would then be revealed as good for absolutely nothing, if they couldnt have a flutter

Ban betting - the premise of false sports fans, then horseracing will follow

cardwizzard

My name is URL wrote: »

Or at least, should they get rid of jump racing?

Two horses died at the Grand National today. I never actually watch or bet on the sport but just happened to see the race today. Loads of other horses fell while going over the fences. It's a wonder that there were only two fatalities.

Is it worth it? Would the sport not be just as enjoyable if there were no fences? Doesn't make any sense to me to risk the lives of both jockeys and horses by having them jump.

What say you?

OP as he admits has no idea about racing as a whole. Thats like myself starting a thread on brain surgery. Pointless arugement.

Johro

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

I worked with race horses for many years and in that time I rarely saw cruelty. Over use of the whip gets the jockey a nice fine. These animals are very expensive and are treated in the best possible way.

Horses naturally run and when working them they love to get ahead of the pack. It is sometimes very difficult to hold them back in training. Nobody wants to see horses put down and it's never pleasant to return to your yard with an empty spot in the trailer. But like most sports there is an element of risk and
Nothing can be 100% safe.

As a side point, it was worth noting the grey horse's ears as he entered the winners enclosure. They were pricked up. This would be a sign the animal is content and interested in its environment.

We'll take your word for it.. Though it could easily mean the horse is alert because it's entering a noisy crowd environment with lots of people cheering and shouting.
I appreciate that what you say about the grey horse may be entirely true but I also reckon a lot of this is down to interpretation and I wouldn't think all horses act the same. I'm sure horses have 'tells' just like other animals such as dogs, I'm just aware of peoples ability to excuse almost anything.
By the way, lots of horses don't get treated well, but yeah, the expensive ones do. It is all about money in the end, though not for the people who actually work with the horses, most of them do genuinely care for them.

Johro

cardwizzard wrote: »

OP as he admits has no idea about racing as a whole. Thats like myself starting a thread on brain surgery. Pointless arugement.

I think the argument is that in a race where horses fairly frequently end up dead it may be worth debating whether demanding races such as these with very high fences should be held at all, or if at least the fences should be lowered.
That's not rocket science. You don't have to have an idea about 'racing as a whole', just eyes in your head and a bit of sense.

Oscars Well.

Johro wrote: »

By the way, lots of horses don't get treated well, but yeah, the expensive ones do. It is all about money in the end, though not for the people who actually work with the horses, most of them do genuinely care for them.

No sensible person buys a racehorse expecting to make money. Look at JP McManus or Michael O'Leary, they don't expect to make enough in prize money to keep their horses in training, they're in it for the love of the game.

My name is URL

cardwizzard wrote: »

OP as he admits has no idea about racing as a whole. Thats like myself starting a thread on brain surgery. Pointless arugement.

Yes it's exactly like that.

I didn't say that I have no idea about horse racing ffs! All I said is that I don't watch it.

Do you think that improvements could be made in order to ensure that less fatalities occur in the Grand National?

Johro

Cheeky_gal wrote: »

Hilarious thread.

People who have no idea about horse racing hear of two horses having to be destroyed and they log onto boards and talk about how cruel it is and suggest horse racing be banned :rolleyes:

I wonder if these people were sitting at home crying all day about Synchronised and According to Pete? Doubtful

Again, you don't have to have a clue about horse racing to be able to see that a big race where twenty horses have died in ten occasions of this race is probably not a good thing ffs.