Should horse racing be banned?

Born to Die

KeithAFC wrote: »

Ok, so 13 deaths in the last 20 nationals is no big deal then?

If it were 13 jockey's that were killed then no.

KeithAFC

KeithAFC wrote: »

Ok, so 13 deaths in the last 20 nationals is no big deal then?

13 horses dying in 20 years of a race, while terrible to see and not something I hate happening, does not look like a big number to me.

FloatingVoter

This is not about the "cruelty" of horse racing, its about letting that clearly ****ed horse run.

Davidson2k9

I hate watching the grand national, its the one race i hate. But to ban horse racing, no way.

Look at when a horse falls or unseats its rider, what does it do? It gets back up and joins the other horses and completes the race going over the jumps too. They enjoy racing.

Athletes die in car racing, skiing, soccer, all kinds of sports.

Da Shins Kelly

Evie90 wrote: »

Personally I think there's no argument for banning the grand national, I've been horse riding for 15 years and competing for about 10 and I've seen at least a dozen horses die while show-jumping or at cross country or hunting they've either died instantly or were put down as a result of their injuries. Does that mean that show-jumping/ cross country/ point to points and hunting should all be banned? should riding on the roads be banned as well because horses and riders die on the roads? Every aspect of horse riding is dangerous, I'm not trying to be sensationalist but if you want to ban one race because horses die while in it, very little would actually be achieved as far as preventing the deaths of horses in sport .

As for the argument that we shouldn't be using horses for sport, they are very intelligent animals with the ability to remove you from their back with very little effort on their part, I honestly believe that horses like to have a purpose and that they do enjoy what they do, for example I compete at cross country and some of the fences I've jumped have been up to five foot and some courses have been quite frankly terrifying but the horse still goes and does it's best when It could easily stop and not move and there would be sweet f*** all the I could do about it. Admittedly it is eerie that Syncronised unseated his rider before the race and clearly wasn't happy so maybe he should not have been run, I feel they most sorry for his grooms as they are probably more attached to the horse than anybody and are most likely absolutely devastated right now.

Also (this is my last point I promise) the economic implications of banning Aintree festival would be massive for all the surrounding hotels/bars/ restaurants and retailers.

The point is that it's one race in the racing calendar and over 20 horses have died in this one race in 12 years. That's a lot. If that many horses were dying in one single cross-country event every year, there would be a reassessment. Most people who understand anything about the equine world agree that racing itself shouldn't be banned, but the Grand National needs to be looked at. First and foremost, reducing the number of runners would greatly reduce the risk. This is something we don't see in cross-country for example - we don't have 40 horses galloping at 5 ft high fences all together.

Believe me, I've seen horses come and go and I've seen my fair share of horrible accidents, but the organised carnage that is the Grand National is just a death trap. That's not what an enjoyable sport should be about, and furthermore, it gives the equine world a bad name.

Where To

FloatingVoter wrote: »

The horse (Synchronised) was making it quite clear it didn't feel like running let alone jumping. The fact that JP McManus and Tony McCoy are either too egotistical / greedy or don't understand animals enough to pull the horse from the race is relevant. BTW, I had money on two horsies myself and am not in any animal rights organisation.

McManus should become a bookie (oh look, he is) and McCoy become a "celebrity", he seems to think he is. And yes, the horse was cleared by a vet....funny vet that. Minutes away from death yet unable to diagnose a sick horse.

None of the three should be allowed in a decision making process near any animal in clear distress. Perhaps racing goldfish will be their next career move.

Ummm, he would be have to be a psychic vet to foretell the horse was going to fall.

FloatingVoter

FloatingVoter wrote: »

The horse (Synchronised) was making it quite clear it didn't feel like running let alone jumping. The fact that JP McManus and Tony McCoy are either too egotistical / greedy or don't understand animals enough to pull the horse from the race is relevant. BTW, I had money on two horsies myself and am not in any animal rights organisation.

McManus should become a bookie (oh look, he is) and McCoy become a "celebrity", he seems to think he is. And yes, the horse was cleared by a vet....funny vet that. Minutes away from death yet unable to diagnose a sick horse.

None of the three should be allowed in a decision making process near any animal in clear distress. Perhaps racing goldfish will be their next career move.

He did absolutely nothing to indicate he didnt want to run, AP fell of him and he cantered off like any horse would, he actually ran off a lot more relaxed than loose horses usually do. He didnt try to evade being caught and his heart rate was not even elevated as the vet checked. Vets will withdraw a horse if needs be. He wasn't sick, he was just unlucky.

FloatingVoter

Where To wrote: »

Ummm, he would be have to be a psychic vet to foretell the horse was going to fall.

Not psychic, observant perhaps.

FloatingVoter

I've seen contrary horses before. that horse was ill.

RobbingBandit

In honour of Synchronised.

Born to Die

FloatingVoter wrote: »

I've seen contrary horses before. that horse was ill.

You know this how?

Dyr

tbh any industry that uses animals will be all about maximising their profits rather than caring about the animals welfare. It's just a bit sickening when the industry is using animals to entertain humans.

My name is URL

Carolina Disgusting Paperback wrote: »

He did absolutely nothing to indicate he didnt want to run, AP fell of him and he cantered off like any horse would, he actually ran off a lot more relaxed than loose horses usually do. He didnt try to evade being caught and his heart rate was not even elevated as the vet checked. Vets will withdraw a horse if needs be. He wasn't sick, he was just unlucky.

After McCoy got back on the horse and was showing it the fence before the race, it did not look like it wanted to run. Even the commentator said at the time that the horse looked uncomfortable.

later12

FloatingVoter wrote: »

I've seen contrary horses before. that horse was ill.

Oh come on. If you posted that before it happened, I would give you some credit. The idea that vets are deliberately passing horses that are clearly ill is just absurd. The idea that a trainer would allow (or hesitate to sue for negligence) any veterinary surgeon doing such a thing is even worse.

Trainers and owners refrain from sending their horses to meetings all the time when there is a concern over an animal's health.

While I would take the point that there is an ongoing need to re-visit and measure risk and the course deisgn at Aintree, I think you're picking some pretty unrealistic arguments here.

FloatingVoter

FloatingVoter wrote: »

I've seen contrary horses before. that horse was ill.

If you think Syncronised was contrary today I doubt you know what a contrary horse is.

Harry Angstrom

FloatingVoter wrote: »

The horse (Synchronised) was making it quite clear it didn't feel like running let alone jumping. The fact that JP McManus and Tony McCoy are either too egotistical / greedy or don't understand animals enough to pull the horse from the race is relevant. BTW, I had money on two horsies myself and am not in any animal rights organisation.

McManus should become a bookie (oh look, he is) and McCoy become a "celebrity", he seems to think he is. And yes, the horse was cleared by a vet....funny vet that. Minutes away from death yet unable to diagnose a sick horse.

None of the three should be allowed in a decision making process near any animal in clear distress. Perhaps racing goldfish will be their next career move.

Wow.
Synchronised jinked before the start because his attention had been diverted by the starting tape above his head, other horses did the same thing as well. Tony McCoy was just unlucky to lose his balance and fall off. It had nothing to do with the fact that the horse "didn't feel like running".
He cantered down the course for a bit, came to a stop all by himself and a camerman came and held on to him. A vet came to check him and there were no signs that the horse was the least bit distressed. Maybe you should become a vet or a horse psychologist as you seem to profess to know a lot more than most about the inner workings of a horse's mind? :rolleyes:

Maire2009

FloatingVoter wrote: »

I've seen contrary horses before. that horse was ill.

So the "egotistical, greedy" JP McManus let his Gold Cup winning horse run even though he knew the horse was ill and had a chance of dying?

Yeah, that makes sense - letting a horse run to his death that is making him a mint, seen as you are talking money.

Sunnyisland

Bambi wrote: »

tbh any industry that uses animals will be all about maximising their profits rather than caring about the animals welfare. It's just a bit sickening when the industry is using animals to entertain humans.

Is there not millions of pounds/euros/dollars spent on maintaining these horses ? As another poster has said they are treated very well in the there homes stables.

Born to Die

Carolina Disgusting Paperback wrote: »

If you think Syncronised was contrary today I doubt you have know what a contrary house is.

One with 6 bathrooms and only 2 bedrooms.

Discodog

Carolina Disgusting Paperback wrote: »

If you think Syncronised was contrary today I doubt you have know what a contrary house is.

But he might know what a contrary horse is

Naomi00

'Cruelty' is not the right word. Those horses are treated like royalty and have better lives than a lot of people. I've been to the races a good few times and have only seen jockeys get injured, it seems to be just at big races like the Grand National where horses die. It's not the sport of horse racing that's in question, there's nothing wrong with that and the horses enjoy it. I think that races like the Grand National need to be altered though to make it safer for the horses.

Discodog

Maire2009 wrote: »

Yeah, that makes sense - letting a horse run to his death that is making him a mint, seen as you are talking money.

Are they not insured ?

dr.bollocko

MickySticks wrote: »

If anyone else wrote this they would be banned.

Disgusting, shame on you!!!

I notice how you have selectively removed my edit to this post in order to give me another bash. Did you read the rest of the thread?


Anybody else posting this would not have been banned.

This is after hours.

If you want serious business go to the horse racing forum.

I have already clarified my position in that post and on this thread and apologised.

Seeing as how I can do little else at this point beyond that lets please get back to the topic of the thread.

Optimalprimerib

KeithAFC wrote: »

I would rather watch two people enter an arena with shield and sword and a fight to the death happens than watch horse racing to be honest. Get the old ways back into entertainment. It is far to safe today and I honestly think back in the days of the Roman Empire, the thrill of fighting would have been greater than anything we have today.

It is just betting on horses and many of the horses don't have a clue. Boxing isn't that good now and UFC is too safe. Perhaps one event a year could happen in which convicts who are serving time for murder can battle it out and the winner of the event is released.

An event for convicts could involve horses and say 20 convicts serving murder having to run a long course and while they race to win, they are allowed to use bow and arrow to kill the other convicts.

Just make the hunger games a reality. Imagine if this was berties punishment. RTE would have no issues with dwindling ratings if it was. Anyway back on topic, I'm very saddened to hear the fate of synchronised. He had a chance to create history today instead his name will br remembered for a different reason entirely.

My name is URL

Naomi00 wrote: »

'Cruelty' is not the right word. Those horses are treated like royalty and have better lives than a lot of people. I've been to the races a good few times and have only seen jockeys get injured, it seems to be just at big races like the Grand National where horses die. It's not the sport of horse racing that's in question, there's nothing wrong with that and the horses enjoy it. I think that races like the Grand National need to be altered though to make it safer for the horses.

Well they're certainly looked after well once they are still turning a profit for the owners. After that though, life is not so easy for them.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12682680

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/feb/06/racehorse-slaughter-animal-welfare

Born to Die

Discodog wrote: »

Are they not insured ?

Isn't everything these days.

Maire2009

Discodog wrote: »

Are they not insured ?

They would be I'd reckon, but anyone would hardly be suggesting someone as rich as JP McManus would let a Champion horse die to claim some insurance money?!

BlaasForRafa

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Its just a gimmick. Like having sprinkers at the side of a formula 1 track. Flat racing is the sport of kings for the best horses. Only in Ireland and the UK is jumps racing popular because the rest of the world see it as pointless. I think Ireland is the only country in the world where jumps races is preferred to the real stuff.

flat racing is boring as f**k, as are the people who like it.

RichieC

Really sad about Syncronised all the same. From gold cup glory to dog food in a matter of weeks.

Naomi00

My name is URL wrote: »

Well they're certainly looked after well once they are still turning a profit for the owners. After that though, life is not so easy for them.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12682680

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/feb/06/racehorse-slaughter-animal-welfare

Fair point, although that's more to do with money than animal welfare. If they were abandoned or mistreated it would be a welfare issue. I'm guessing that those horses would be from trainers who don't make that much money and maybe have no other choice, I'd imagine that the ones who can afford it look after their retired horses.

Evie90

Discodog wrote: »

It may be the last point but it is the most pertinent. No one is going to ban the National it makes too much money in tax. I have been to a lot of horse shows & I have never seen a horse die as a result of show jumping. Cross country is different & so is point to point.

But it is another concern when one race regularly results in so many deaths. There has to come a point where you are subjecting the animals to reckless endangerment.

Your right show-jumping is a bad example but nonetheless horses do get injured in it, it would have been a better example of the point that if a horse didn't want to do do something you couldn't make it.

If your interested in horses you'll probably know about Badminton Horse Trials, it's the biggest eventing competitions in the world, the cross-country course is notoriously dangerous and difficult with substantial jumps where horses regularly fall and some unfortunately die during it, if I remember correctly 6 horses fell at the same fence in 2010 ( one I remember was a rotational fall where the horse could have easily be killed)and a horse died at a different fence the same year but there's never as much uproar after Badminton as there is after the national. I suppose what I'm trying to say as that if all these people who are so gun-ho that the national should be banned actually had an interest in horses at all they would see that horses die in all aspects of the sport not just in racing.

FueledByAisling

kincsem wrote: »

If there is no horseracing they will be no thoroughbred horses. They are not a wild breed. Thoroughbreds are the result of about 300 years of selective breeding, a bit like pedigree dogs.

These horses are bred to race. No races, no horses. Do you want to kill 200,000+ broodmares worldwide, and also the stallions, and horses in training (racing), totalling millions of horses?

Bleeding-heart poorly informed animal-rights "supporters". :rolleyes:

Ehh thoroughbreds aren't only used for racing, they are also used in different sports and infact excel in a lot of them!

Born to Die

FueledByAisling wrote: »

Ehh thoroughbreds aren't only used for racing, they are also used in different sports and infact excel in a lot of them!

Particularly basketball.

FueledByAisling

Like many people stated (and I agree to) the problem isn't the fact of there being any jumps. If the race is x miles long jumps NEED to be restricted to y cm heigh. Muscles need a certain amount of time to recover from a jump but if a horse is running 4 miles at full speed and supposed to jump a large number of fences at the height of roughly 1.30m is ridiculous! A horse is exhausted cantering around a course of 1.30m let alone having to gallop 4 miles ontop of that :eek:

LilyCricket

Maire2009 wrote: »

They would be I'd reckon, but anyone would hardly be suggesting someone as rich as JP McManus would let a Champion horse die to claim some insurance money?!

What use would it have been to him with a badly broken leg, probably wouldn't have recovered

Sad, but true

Jimoslimos

Born to Die wrote: »

Particularly basketball.

Harlem Globetrotters

Evie90

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

The point is that it's one race in the racing calendar and over 20 horses have died in this one race in 12 years. That's a lot. If that many horses were dying in one single cross-country event every year, there would be a reassessment. Most people who understand anything about the equine world agree that racing itself shouldn't be banned, but the Grand National needs to be looked at. First and foremost, reducing the number of runners would greatly reduce the risk. This is something we don't see in cross-country for example - we don't have 40 horses galloping at 5 ft high fences all together.

Believe me, I've seen horses come and go and I've seen my fair share of horrible accidents, but the organised carnage that is the Grand National is just a death trap. That's not what an enjoyable sport should be about, and furthermore, it gives the equine world a bad name.

I'm not arguing that it shouldn't be made safer, I'm all for it being made safer but I'm not a course designer or an expert on racing so I can't really comment on it how that could be achieved aside from the obvious point of reducing the number runners. Admittedly my post is a bit long winded but I was trying to illustrate horses die a lot as a result of being ridden and it's fairly redundant imo to ban a one race when horses die in other areas of the sport.

abouttobebanned

KeithAFC wrote: »

Ok, so 13 deaths in the last 20 nationals is no big deal then?

Compare that to deaths of horses on farms, on ranches...on halting sites...

If horses could talk they would all be telling you how they wanted to be race horses when they grew up.

Maire2009

LilyCricket wrote: »

What use would it have been to him with a badly broken leg, probably wouldn't have recovered

Sad, but true

Oh yeah I agree with that. Just it seemed to be suggested above that McManus, McCoy and Co. ran the horse to his death even though they knew something was wrong. Have no doubt the horse would have been pulled if they knew what was going to happen as the "physic vet" above seems to have known.

It was a bad, unfortunate fall. The horse didn't refuse to jump the fence as some other horses did, he just didn't clear it. Very sad.

The numbers definitely seem to be a problem - one horse fell and took out 2/3 other horses with him at one stage.

FloatingVoter

Every year without fail, some horses refuse to take starting positions (thats me calling a horse "contrary") . Theres a bit of messing and eventually they start, usually those of us with money on the spirited nags know they're not going to perform too well (I'm not psychic, just been around). Sometimes they don't make it to the start at all.
Sometimes something happens in the stables and we have a non-runner.
This Cheltenham Gold Cup horse did the mother of all tantrums yet still ran.
Those are all facts.
"Contrary" is just a phrase I used. "Insurance" was mentioned too. I haven't read the insurance contract on the horse - so who could tell ?

Byebye horsies, RIP.

the bolt

Princess Peach wrote: »

The footballer chose to play the sport knowing risks, the animals aren't given a choice.

i dont think a horse would run if he didnt want to,but i think cutting down the number of runners would help,

Born to Die

Do race horses of this pedigree get buried or are they used as pet food.

(Serious question)

NoelJ

This thread comes around every year. Its a shame that the horses are dying. Everything has been changed in the course to try and stop this such as changing the height of jumps but realistically its just made the times quicken up and put them in more danger. People in horse racing obviously care about the horses and its unlucky that a non-threatening disease for humans like a broken leg is fatal for horses as they get pneumonia. Like Noel Feilhy broke his leg today..

Things like this happen a lot in horse racing unfortunately. Gottany O's died while running on the flat during the races. Its not always because of the hurdles and jumps..

Evie90

RichieC wrote: »

Really sad about Syncronised all the same. From gold cup glory to dog food in a matter of weeks.

It's more than likely that he'll be cremated or buried, horses destined for consumption are usually sent to the abattoir alive.

NoelJ

FloatingVoter wrote: »

Every year without fail, some horses refuse to take starting positions (thats me calling a horse "contrary") . Theres a bit of messing and eventually they start, usually those of us with money on the spirited nags know they're not going to perform too well (I'm not psychic, just been around). Sometimes they don't make it to the start at all.
Sometimes something happens in the stables and we have a non-runner.
This Cheltenham Gold Cup horse did the mother of all tantrums yet still ran.
Those are all facts.
"Contrary" is just a phrase I used. "Insurance" was mentioned too. I haven't read the insurance contract on the horse - so who could tell ?

Byebye horsies, RIP.

Finans Rainbow ran throw the barrier yesterday and won.. Its impossible to know if they don't want to run or too eager to run.

My name is URL

Is there really the need for 30 fences? Reduce it by 10 and the chances of a horse being fatally wounded are cut by 1/3.

NoelJ

My name is URL wrote: »

Is there really the need for 30 fences? Reduce it by 10 and the chances of a horse being fatally wounded are cut by 1/3.

The race will go faster and chances of a horse being fatally wounded would increase? Perhaps they could increase the jumps so horses have to go slower?

kincsem

FueledByAisling wrote: »

Ehh thoroughbreds aren't only used for racing, they are also used in different sports and infact excel in a lot of them!

They can be used for other purposes, but they are bred to race. I have over 500 thoroughbred racing / pedigree books so I don't need the "Ehh". You are not teaching me much / anything.

Born to Die wrote: »

Do race horses of this pedigree get buried or are they used as pet food.
(Serious question)

My guess is there might be a hundred thoroughbred graves in Ireland. That is not many when you realise there are tens of thousands of thoroughbreds living in the country, and have been for a few hundred years (much lower thoroughbred population in the past.)
Only exceptional champions would be buried and the grave marked with a headstone. I have a book "Etched In Stone: Thoroughbred Memorials" http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1691070.Etched_in_Stone
This book lists 475 memorials in Kentucky, home of American racing. The USA has a much bigger thoroughbred population.

The greatest European thoroughbred Sea-Bird was sent to a knackers yard.

homerjay2005

should horse racing be banned? no, but the grand national should be changed.

its a wonderful event, but its also the most dangerous in the world in terms of racing. i really really cringed today seeing some of the falls, they were awful. surely they need to review the length of the course, the heights of the fences and number of horses in it.

token101

Princess Peach wrote: »

I believe it should be banned, along with greyhound racing.

Cruelty to animals for sport and gambling pretty much disgusts me.

Sadly is never going to happen though.

LilyCricket wrote: »

This actually really upset me.

Such a huge cost

BX 19 wrote: »

I've been behind the big screen that they pull over when a horse's life is been ended at the races. Not a pretty sight. The horse knows its coming even when sedated. I've also seen a young vet missing the first time and having to do the job twice.

I would have no qualms about banning it.

FFS stop. People die everyday crossing the street. Should we ban that? Are you both vegetarians? We breed plenty of animals just to kill them FFS. Want to ban that? Have some f***ing cop on. It's sad that the horse died. But banning racing? F*** off and welcome to the real world, a place where sometimes bad things happen. Racehorses are treated incredibly well by most trainers. Better than many humans FFS! If you're concerned about horses' welfare you can start with the darlings in our fabulous travelling community. The horse knows it's coming? Get a grip now in fairness :rolleyes: