Should horse racing be banned?

kfallon

DB10 wrote: »

I find it hard to see how anyone can support this animal cruelty sport, they certainly only care about their bets or their job if they are involved with horses.

Would you rather these horses were never born and loved? They are bred to race, if racing didn't exist we would never know about them. Take George Washington, gave me one of my biggest thrills in racing when standing in Newmarket watching him win the 2,000 Guineas and I didn't win any money. Unfortunately he died on the track 18 months later. However he gave me a memory I will cherish forever, the pain of his ending couldn't overshadow the joy he gave me in May 2006.

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

What do you base that on?

21,114 posts since 2008 and not one in the horse racing forum, says it all :rolleyes:

DB10

UrbanSea wrote: »

Judging by your posts I'm guessing you've never stepped foot into a yard.

No, and I don't intend to. Seeing animals forced to run and be whipped for peoples entertainment. It's like the Colloseum in Rome ffs.

I have't been to dog fighting yards either and I have no wish to.

Seomra Mushie

UrbanSea wrote: »

Horses can often get excited before a race. This doesn't mean they don't want to run.

Do you speak horse?

UrbanSea

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

That's not true. The money made by the bulk if people working in the industry is poor and the hours are long with the work being very hard.

Most people will have got into it through their love of horses.

Totally true. Most of the stable workers are paid pittance and work about 18 hour days. This isn't a job for them,it's a way of life. They genuinely love them.

UrbanSea

Seomra Mushie wrote: »

Do you speak horse?

Have you a dog/cat?

Is it possible to understand their emotions without speaking dog/cat?

Idiotic question.

kfallon

DB10 wrote: »

Synchronise didnt want to run yesterday. It was clear from the start, he delayed the race by 10 minutes because he didn't want to run.

Yet he was forced to because so many people had money bet on him. And now hes dead. There needs to be a thorough investigation into these circumstances.

He was never upto this race so soon after the Gold Cup.

Synchronised ran on after he unshipped Tony McCoy

My name is URL wrote: »

What makes you think I won't care? Maybe I won't know about it, but I know about what happened yesterday, and I decided to start a thread about it. Get the fcuk over it, and yourself.

You won't know about it because you won't care

xzanti

kfallon wrote: »

Why do you think that everyone who likes horse racing is only in it for the money?

kfallon wrote: »

But is what ever they're 'getting' from it, be it financial gain or simply the thrill of the race, worth sacrificing the animals life?

kfallon wrote: »

But I agree with the first part of your post, these horses mean so much to so many people, they are not 'just' horses. As I said before there is a lad or lass who looked after Synchronised every day of his life who is heartbroken today, JP McManus and Jonjo will be feeling the same. I don't see people calling for F1 to be banned even tho we have lost people due to crashes in that sport.

Again, it goes back to the argument that humans go into their sport of their own free will, equipped with the knowledge of all the dangers involved..

There's no dotted line for animals to sign, and no big payout to rest up on if they get injured... it's curtains for them.

Seomra Mushie

UrbanSea wrote: »

Have you a dog/cat?

Is it possible to understand their emotions without speaking dog/cat?

Idiotic question.

Again with the insults. The horse delayed the race. I'd take that as reticence. You don't seem to so I was wondering what other means are used to find out if the horse wants to race, if the obvious one is ignored.

kfallon

DB10 wrote: »

No, and I don't intend to. Seeing animals forced to run and be whipped for peoples entertainment. It's like the Colloseum in Rome ffs.

I have't been to dog fighting yards either and I have no wish to.

Have you ever been whipped by a jockey's whip?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/oct/18/jockeys-whip-didnt-hurt

UrbanSea

Seomra Mushie wrote: »

Again with the insults. The horse delayed the race. I'd take that as reticence. You don't seem to so I was wondering what other means are used to find out if the horse wants to race, if the obvious one is ignored.

When did I insult you? Now you're simply making things up to suit your argument.

The horse delayed the race. This is not uncommon at all. Again, look at Finian's Rainbow the day before.

That may be an obvious sign to someone who hasn't a clue about horses or racing. The most obvious sign is that a horse refuses to line up with the others or is left at the start by refusing (See King John's Castle),a horse who refuses at a fence (Vic Venturi yesterday), a horse who will not go into the stalls on the flat, or a horse who stands in the stalls.

I'm repeating myself, which is rather irritating.

Flancrest

The fact of the matter is horses are surplus to requirements without horse racing and therefore a ban on horse racing would cause many more horse deaths than keeping it going.

99% of people involved in hose racing are horse lovers and would never force a horse to do anything they didn't think they'd be able for. If you ever hear a trainer owner or jockey speak its always about the horse not the money.

There is also a piece i read by Mick Fitzgerald today that questions if the changes made to beachers brook for safety reasons were actually the cause of the 2 horses dying yesterday

Seomra Mushie

UrbanSea wrote: »

I'm repeating myself, which is rather irritating.

Know the feeling.

kfallon

xzanti wrote: »

Again, it goes back to the argument that humans go into their sport of their own free will, equipped with the knowledge of all the dangers involved..

There's no dotted line for animals to sign, and no big payout to rest up on if they get injured... it's curtains for them.

Why do you think every horse dies on the track? A lot of horses enjoy a fantastic retirement after their racing days are over, some even have the luxury of being a stallion after racing, how better a retirement can you get? :P

As I said before, if racing didn't exist these horses would never be born, they are bred for the specific reason of racing, nothing else.

UrbanSea

Seomra Mushie wrote: »

Know the feeling.

I've had better debates with a horse.

later12

Seomra Mushie wrote: »

Again with the insults. The horse delayed the race. I'd take that as reticence. You don't seem to so I was wondering what other means are used to find out if the horse wants to race, if the obvious one is ignored.

I can understand the irritation.

You and others are making some absolutely bizarre claims like participants in racing being only in it for the money, or horses' reticences on the racetrack.

I have nothing against people who have no interest in horseracing or other equestrian sports outside of grumbling about the grand national.But please don't start telling people who are familiar with working with horses 'what's what' when claims you are making are so visibly and exasperatingly off the mark, and you would realise that if you spent any length of time in a training yard at all.

I do appreciate that the national is a cause for concern, and there is such a thing as 'overfacing' horses. There is room there for intelligent debate. But not this guff you're coming out with.

Micky Dolenz

kfallon wrote: »

21,114 posts since 2008 and not one in the horse racing forum, says it all :rolleyes:

Heh, good deduction Watson.

Even when I was a stable hand I had little interest in the sport, unless it was one of our own horses running or one I had worked with. I never gambled.which is funny as ive probably been to every race course in the country as a stable hand I did it as I grew up around them so had little choice really. I love horses and
Love to ride And their is nothing better then riding a thoroughbred.

I never intended to make a career of it and once I left home that was it.

Harry Angstrom

Seomra Mushie wrote: »

Again with the insults. The horse delayed the race. I'd take that as reticence. You don't seem to so I was wondering what other means are used to find out if the horse wants to race, if the obvious one is ignored.

The horse delayed the race because he got loose. If he didn't want to race, he would have planted himself at the start. As was mentioned earlier, take a look at a horse called King Johns Castle when he did just that in a previous Grand National. Also, take a look at a horse called Vodkatini. If he wasn't in the mood he would simply plant himself and no amount of encouragement would get him to move. The same went for a horse called Twist Magic. He did exactly the same thing when he didn't want to race.

This thread really is a waste of time because it's impossible to have a reasoned debate with people who haven't a clue of the subject. Good luck.

Seomra Mushie

kfallon wrote: »

As I said before, if racing didn't exist these horses would never be born

Weird argument.

xzanti

Why do you think every horse dies on the track?

Where did I say that?

kfallon wrote: »

As I said before, if racing didn't exist these horses would never be born, they are bred for the specific reason of racing, nothing else.

Kind of like battery hens I guess.

Mint Sauce

Seomra Mushie wrote: »

Again with the insults. The horse delayed the race. I'd take that as reticence. You don't seem to so I was wondering what other means are used to find out if the horse wants to race, if the obvious one is ignored.

The race was delayed because the horse instinctingly went to jump when he seen the start tape during the warm up, thus unseating his rider. When he was eventully caught up with, he was examined by a vet and deemed okay to race.

As already said, if he didn't want to race he would have stood his ground at the start, or refused the fences.

Now this is no defence of the race its self, I have already said earlier I wouldn't miss the National if it was never ran again, it was saddening that two horses died, but it doesn't mean that all horse racing should be banned.

There is racing nearly everyday of the year, if horses dying were a regular event, I would say 'yeah sure, ban it', but theres not. I do think though a review is needed though in regards to the national.

Seomra Mushie

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

This thread really is a waste of time because it's impossible to have a reasoned debate with people who haven't a clue of the subject. Good luck.

I find this thread interesting because it's amazing how defensive some defenders of horse-racing are, to the point of getting stroppy and insulting people. Why so defensive? If you are assured in your position, why?

Seomra Mushie

later12 wrote: »

You and others are making some absolutely bizarre claims like participants in racing being only in it for the money, or horses' reticences on the racetrack.

That's hardly bizarre, of course money is a motivator!

UrbanSea

Seomra Mushie wrote: »

I find this thread interesting because it's amazing how defensive some defenders of horse-racing are, to the point of getting stroppy and insulting people. Why so defensive? If you are assured in your position, why?

I've asked you,but you failed to respond. When did I insult you?

My name is URL

kfallon wrote: »

You won't know about it because you won't care

That's an asinine statement. What exactly is it that makes you think that I won't care about the next horse to be killed on the track? I've already said that I don't watch the sport, so the only way I'd know about a future death is if it was reported. And it will be, here. Just because I don't watch the sport doesn't mean that I know nothing about it. I don't watch Cricket or American Football but still have a fairly good understanding of the sports.

I'm really not sure why you're being so defensive. Do you seriously not believe that some steps could be taken in order to reduce the risk posed to horses in the National?

Only 37% of horses finished the race yesterday. It's easier to predict that at least one horse will die in the race than it is to predict the winner. It's not sporting when the result depends so heavily on blind chance.. it's more like fcuking bingo.

UrbanSea

Seomra Mushie wrote: »

That's hardly bizarre, of course money is a motivator!

If you aim to make a profit, owning a horse is not for you.

Owning a horse is for the love of the horses, the sport and with some luck, you may win a race, a small few will have one good enough to win more than one. A minute amount will make money from a horse.

kfallon

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Heh, good deduction Watson.

Even when I was a stable hand I had little interest in the sport, unless it was one of our own horses running or one I had worked with. I never gambled.which is funny as ive probably been to every race course in the country as a stable hand I did it as I grew up around them so had little choice really. I love horses and
Love to ride And their is nothing better then riding a thoroughbred.

I never intended to make a career of it and once I left home that was it.

But not the ones that aren't circular

UrbanSea

My name is URL wrote: »

That's an asinine statement. What exactly is it that makes you think that I won't care about the next horse to be killed on the track? I've already said that I don't watch the sport, so the only way I'd know about a future death is if it was reported. And it will be, here. Just because I don't watch the sport doesn't mean that I know nothing about it. I don't watch Cricket or American Football but still have a fairly good understanding of the sports.

I'm really not sure why you're being so defensive. Do you seriously not believe that some steps could be taken in order to reduce the risk posed to horses in the National?

Only 37% of horses finished the race yesterday. It's easier to predict that at least one horse will die in the race than it is to predict the winner. It's not sporting when the result depends so heavily on blind chance.. it's more like fcuking bingo.

Any racing fan will tell you that this is true. Every race has an element of luck to it, luck has a huge amount to do with a victory in the National.

Liamario

zerks wrote: »

I hate to be callous but they are only horses.

I hate this phrase; they're only <insert animal name here>.
You are only an animal yourself. Who says you have the right to live and not be treated like a toy. Get off your pedestal and realise that you aren't anything special.

Seomra Mushie

UrbanSea wrote: »

I've asked you,but you failed to respond. When did I insult you?

"better debate with a horse", "idiotic statement" etc. etc.

louthguy25

I hate horses so yes

Huntley

DB10 wrote: »

No, and I don't intend to. Seeing animals forced to run and be whipped for peoples entertainment. It's like the Colloseum in Rome ffs.

Makes for interesting reading from somebody who describes horse racing as "seeing animals forced to run and whipped for people's entertainment".

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=71230251

kfallon

My name is URL wrote: »

Only 37% of horses finished the race yesterday. It's easier to predict that at least one horse will die in the race than it is to predict the winner. It's not sporting when the result depends so heavily on blind chance.. it's more like fcuking bingo.

How many horse do you think will die at Leopardstwon today then?

kfallon

Huntley wrote: »

Makes for interesting reading from somebody who describes horse racing as "seeing animals forced to run and whipped for people's entertainment".

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=71230251

lividduck

DB10 wrote: »

Synchronise didnt want to run yesterday. It was clear from the start, he delayed the race by 10 minutes because he didn't want to run.

Yet he was forced to because so many people had money bet on him. And now hes dead. There needs to be a thorough investigation into these circumstances.

He was never upto this race so soon after the Gold Cup.

Complete bollocks!But then again what would a highly repected trainer like Jonjo O'Neill know compared your obvious in depth knowledge.

UrbanSea

Seomra Mushie wrote: »

"better debate with a horse", "idiotic statement" etc. etc.

The first was a hyperbole, my apologies if it offended. Though it was in reponse to an idiotic statement you made in which you totally ignored my constructive and knowledgable post.

Also, I said your statement was idiotic, not that you're an idiot. I may say some stupid things, though that doesn't make me stupid.

I never insulted you.

My name is URL

kfallon wrote: »

How many horse do you think will die at Leopardstwon today then?

I don't know. And it's entirely irrelevant to what I was saying.

Do you not want to answer the question I asked you above?

later12

Seomra Mushie wrote: »

That's hardly bizarre, of course money is a motivator!

I'm saying there is an implication that some people are only in it for the money. Everyone has to pay bills, but I'd encourage you to try a career in the world of horses and then see how many bills you can afford to pay.

I think this is especially irritating to read from you people, because anyone with horses knows that making a lot of money from them is the exception to the rule. Most people break their backs and the bank balances looking after their animals, and they do it for an enthusiasm for sport horses of all shapes and kinds, depending on their personal interests.

These people are getting up at the crack of dawn, tacking up, riding out, mucking out and feeding their animals before they even have breakfast. They spend all their time around these animals for what are usually piss poor incomes, checking on them for injuries, watching their wellbeing, seeing to their veterinary and nutritional health... I cannot think of another type of animal that is so widely and consistently and professionally monitored for his happiness and wellbeing, and usually to the detriment of his owner's finances (and most horse people wouldn't have it any other way).

I'm bowing out of this discussion because as others have said, it's impossible to have a logical debate with someone who is convinced they are correct and appears to have absolutely no evidence or experience to back up their irrational and outlandish outbursts on this subject.

Chucky the tree

I can only presume everyone who wants it banned is a vegetarian.

xzanti

lividduck wrote: »

Complete bollocks!But then again what would a highly repected trainer like Jonjo O'Neill know compared your obvious in depth knowledge.

I didn't watch the race, I don't watch racing at all but I've heard it brought up in conversations (was at a 30th last night and it was a popular topic) that the horse looked nervous and agitated at the beginning of the race..

UrbanSea

xzanti wrote: »

I didn't watch the race, I don't watch racing at all but I've heard it brought up in conversations (was at a 30th last night and it was a popular topic) that the horse looked nervous and agitated at the beginning of the race..

Which is not uncommon, as has been discussed.

kfallon

xzanti wrote: »

I didn't watch the race, I don't watch racing at all but I've heard it brought up in conversations (was at a 30th last night and it was a popular topic) that the horse looked nervous and agitated at the beginning of the race..

How many of thee 22 players who started the FA Cup semi final do you reckon were nervous and agitated? Do you think they shouldn't have played because of it?

byhookorbycrook

DB10 wrote: »

No, and I don't intend to. Seeing animals forced to run and be whipped for peoples entertainment. It's like the Colloseum in Rome ffs.

I have't been to dog fighting yards either and I have no wish to.

Ok, one more time, you cannot force a horse to something it does not want to do. This applies to every type of horse from my little fat cob who refuses to pass a field with sheep in it to the most elite of our eventers/jumpers/racehorses.

xzanti

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I can only presume everyone who wants it banned is a vegetarian.

No, I am a meat eater.. but I don't watch cows being slaughtered for entertainment on a Sunday afternoon.. I know that animals die every day on farms and in abattoirs.. but they are killed for food, not for sport..

I think there is a difference..

Again, let me reiterate, I know they don't ALL die on the track.. but it seems to be quite common.

Seamus145

If they ban racing, they might as well ban boxing and cross country running as well

tfitzgerald

To ban horse racing , this is more P C sh1tology. Christ soon we will be able to do nothing

kfallon

My name is URL wrote: »

I'm really not sure why you're being so defensive. Do you seriously not believe that some steps could be taken in order to reduce the risk posed to horses in the National?

Is this the question you want me to answer? What do you suggest, have a 4m 4f bumper? They have made steps to make it safer but reducing the size of the fences isn't exactly the best way to increase safety.

And for the record I am not a fan of the GN but i don't like people's annual crusade against horse racing that lasts a couple of days each April.

xzanti

kfallon wrote: »

How many of thee 22 players who started the FA Cup semi final do you reckon were nervous and agitated? Do you think they shouldn't have played because of it?

Humans

UrbanSea

xzanti wrote: »

No, I am a meat eater.. but I don't watch cows being slaughtered for entertainment on a Sunday afternoon.. I know that animals die every day on farms and in abattoirs.. but they are killed for food, not for sport..

I think there is a difference..

Again, let me reiterate, I know they don't ALL die on the track.. but it seems to be quite common.

In fairness xzanti I can understand how it looks to people who may only watch it for the National. I can understand people having an issue with the National, though to suggest that all horse racing should be banned is a bit over the top.

The number of fatalities in racing is actually very low, though this isn't perceived in the media.

kfallon

xzanti wrote: »

Again, let me reiterate, I know they don't ALL die on the track.. but it seems to be quite common.

Got stats to back that up?

ppink

you wont force a horse to do something it does not want to but really racing is instinctual is it not? when you have prey animals all running together it is in their interest to run?
I think it was Luca Cumani I saw interviewed who said that horse racing is all about harnessing the horses fear.