Households must pay for water meters.

Silverado

If I have to pay for my water meter that means I own it. That also means that I can take it off and on as I wish. Then that means that if I can take it off they won't a true reading. In fact if they use the usual method of cut off for the non payers the meter gets removed - but they can't do this because then they are then stealing my meter.

From the Govt. point of view the suggestion is ludicrous. We, the users, cannot own the metres because the system would be unworkable.

lugha

The Tyre Dude wrote: »

If I wanted a water a meter I could buy a good one online for €100, why can't the Govt. when buying XXX,000 of them not do better than €350 per unit. Is it because they are not spending their money so value is not a concern? Some things never change.

I suspect they are playing an old trick. You put out a rumour that the cost is something excessive. Then you publish the actual cost which is much less than the initial rumoured amount and lots of people think the're getting a bargin. :pac:

ToddyDoody

Will have to get the toilet fixed.. It flushes spontaneously

Cantona's Collars

I've installed water pipes and it's gas what waste is involved when you look at private companies vs local authorities.If we had a leak or connection problem it'd be fixed as a matter of urgency in the fastest possible time.The local authority guys took all day to fix a leak,the same job would have taken us roughly an hour from start to finish.
When millions of litres of water is being wasted every day through leaks it's hard to swallow the pill of paying for a device that's sole purpose is to cost us even more money.

sh1tstirrer

Wurly wrote: »

A question to the people who paid the household charge... Now that you realise that the household charge is NOT going towards local services, do you now regret paying?

Will you regret not paying on time when you will have to pay extra through penalties, interest and fines?

tfitzgerald

lugha wrote: »

I suspect they are playing an old trick. You put out a rumour that the cost is something excessive. Then you publish the actual cost which is much less than the initial rumoured amount and lots of people think the're getting a bargin. :pac:

This is spot on . When people get a bill for €200 euro they will think it could have being a lot worse .

Freddie59

ThinkAboutIt wrote: »

Another thread full of tax dodgers.
I'm looking forward to people having to pay for water. There'll be no waste now lads that's for sure.

You're obviously a WUM. The only way to stop waste is to:

* Fix the leaks in the pipes.

* Reduce PS numbers and salaries to European norms.

That would be a good start.

Freddie59

zerks wrote: »

I've installed water pipes and it's gas what waste is involved when you look at private companies vs local authorities.If we had a leak or connection problem it'd be fixed as a matter of urgency in the fastest possible time.The local authority guys took all day to fix a leak,the same job would have taken us roughly an hour from start to finish.
When millions of litres of water is being wasted every day through leaks it's hard to swallow the pill of paying for a device that's sole purpose is to cost us even more money.

PS efficiencies at their best Zerks.;)

Freddie59

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Just because it happened all the other times doesn't mean it will happen again, actually it will.

FF will try to sell the country to buy the next election, and idiots will listen to then

compare Republican / Democrat spending models.

FF MIGHT be voted in with the Shinners. But they will be the smaller of the two. People will not forgive or forget. And that goes for the "socialist" "Labour" Party as well.

Happy was tied up in knots on RTE last night. Have a look at 18:42 on this link:

http://www.rte.ie/player/#!v=1145149

Dr.Silly

Wurly wrote: »

A question to the people who paid the household charge... Now that you realise that the household charge is NOT going towards local services, do you now regret paying?

I don't regret paying it.

You will regret it however, when you pay the penalties/charges.

bbam

Wurly wrote: »

A question to the people who paid the household charge... Now that you realise that the household charge is NOT going towards local services, do you now regret paying?

You see only idiots thought it was going to pay for bins and water so only they are sorry or refused to pay it because they already paid for bin collection.
There are more services to a society than bins and water.
Libraries, play areas, green spaces, landscaping, tidy towns work are some straight of the top of my head. I want to see these continued in my local town for the benefit of my children and the town and our environment.

Paying for the meters is a bit rich, if it was going to be too costly a flat charge OR pay to have a meter to prove you are using less than the flat charge costs.

Water is expensive, we provide our own so I understand what it costs and how much maIntenance there is.

I would have been fairer to work these charges through the general PAYE system but due to stupid election promises they didn't have the stomach for it.

patwicklow

Well looks like i am going to spend a lot of time in the JOY Not and will not pay house hold scam and they can shove there meters were the sun dont shine.

gerryo777

ThinkAboutIt wrote: »

Another thread full of tax dodgers.
I'm looking forward to people having to pay for water. There'll be no waste now lads that's for sure.

Good trolling there, well done.

gerryo777

sh1tstirrer wrote: »

Will you regret not paying on time when you will have to pay extra through penalties, interest and fines?

Sure all the fines if you don't pay for a year or two would equate to, maybe only €2 a week extra.

DominoDub

Love it... just watched the RTE News team Trolling Aengus O’Snodaigh printing off lots of anti-watercharge posters on the Six One:D

Bishop_Donal

ThinkAboutIt wrote: »

Another thread full of tax dodgers.
I'm looking forward to people having to pay for water. There'll be no waste now lads that's for sure.

Ah jeez, they are not paying on a point of principle!!!!

It's nothing to do with the fact that they expect the rest of society to pay for their services and carry them.;)

I think you are being generous stopping at tax dodgers.

One way or another it doesn't matter a damn as when the country goes tits up, everyone will end up having to pay for everything they get/want anyway.

lividduck

Dr.Silly wrote: »

I don't regret paying it.

You will regret it however, when you pay the penalties/charges.

As I have said before I resent it and believe it to be discriminatory, so yes i suppose i do regret paying it.

lividduck

gerryo777 wrote: »

Sure all the fines if you don't pay for a year or two would equate to, maybe only €2 a week extra.

Nice one Gerry,nice one:D

gerryo777

Bishop_Donal wrote: »

It's nothing to do with the fact that they expect the rest of society to pay for their services and carry them.;)

Who are you talking about here, the people who are exempt from the household tax and will probably be exempt from this tax too???
You know, LA tenants, renters etc.....

Bishop_Donal

gerryo777 wrote: »

Who are you talking about here, the people who are exempt from the household tax and will probably be exempt from this tax too???
You know, LA tenants, renters etc.....

I have no difference with you on the principle of the 'user pays'.

I just don't agree that you can withhold payment of a legitimately introduced tax by a democratically elected government on the basis that you (on a unilateral basis) decide it is not fair. Particularly when you are a top earner and when it is far more in your interest to see a few flat charges that will probably never amount to more than Eur2k per annum. I'm guessing from your previous comments re: the level of income tax that you pay, that a 1% increase in the USC or top tax rate would cost you more.

Bishop_Donal

gerryo777 wrote: »

Who are you talking about here, the people who are exempt from the household tax and will probably be exempt from this tax too???
You know, LA tenants, renters etc.....

BTW, in respect of tenants, I am a firm believer in allowing the free market dictate.

I jacked up the rent I charge my tenants by Eur200 to cover the introduction of the Household charge. I probably wudn't have given them a rent increase in 2012 otherwise. But if it comforts you, my tenants are actually paying it twice!!

I got hammered and accused of trolling the last time I made this point (which is not the case). The bottom line is that a rent increase of twice the magnitude of the charge was the only way I could maintain the rent I was receiving.

And before somebody points it out, I know that that my tenants will move on if I increase the rent above the market average (but they havn't so far so I take that as a good sign of my judgment in this regard).

gerryo777

Bishop_Donal wrote: »

I have no difference with you on the principle of the 'user pays'.

I just don't agree that you can withhold payment of a legitimately introduced tax by a democratically elected government on the basis that you (on a unilateral basis) decide it is not fair. Particularly when you are a top earner and when it is far more in your interest to see a few flat charges that will probably never amount to more than Eur2k per annum. I'm guessing from your previous comments re: the level of income tax that you pay, that a 1% increase in the USC or top tax rate would cost you more.

But the point has to be made clear to the government that discriminating against homeowners with these taxes is not on.

I have tackled my local TD twice about this.

I would certainly be more inclined to pay a water tax because I have control over how much it will cost me!

The household tax just isn't fair or just because a lot of people who cost this country a lot of money to house get off scot free. That's not right!

Ghandee

Bishop_Donal wrote: »

Bullseye, the Irish taxpayer has not paid one red cent of the Bank bailout.

It has been paid for entirely by increased ECB borrowings and promissory notes to date.

On the other hand the Irish taxpayer continues to require support to meet our day to day expenditure (arising out of embedded under-taxation and excessive expenditure).

Strip out the Bank bailout costs & then lets accept that (those excluded) the Irish taxpayer has to ultimately pay his own way. If we cud get this basic agreed, it wud represent a substantial maturing of the Irish left wing alliance.

The ECB have been caught red handed virtually admitting that we've been sacrificed for Europe Donal.

Have a look here and here

laoch na mona

they have no shame
paying for the privilege of paying

bgrizzley

i hope Phil is paid up on his water charges in the Algarve.

Am Chile

Another Bias unfair and unbalanced frontline episode, 3 on their panel for water charges and only 1 against water charges,same for the select participants in the audience they only had one person in the whole audience against water charges.

fedor.2.

ThinkAboutIt wrote: »

Another thread full of tax dodgers.
I'm looking forward to people having to pay for water. There'll be no waste now lads that's for sure.

Your username promised so much.....................until you stared posting, you big dope

Bullseye1

Am Chile wrote: »

Another Bias unfair and unbalanced frontline episode, 3 on their panel for water charges and only 1 against water charges,same for the select participants in the audience they only had one person in the whole audience against water charges.

It was probably full of GPA people.

Going Forward

An interesting paper on the accuracy etc. of water meters.

One interesting point is that in areas prone to limescale, some meters will over-register in the region of 25%.

So anyone unfortunate enough to already have limescale, instead of having a reduced fee for lower quality water, could end up paying even more!

http://www.ita.upv.es/idi/descargaarticulo.php?id=54

AnonoBoy

I'm sure Calgon will come into this somehow.

Washing Machines (and water meters) live longer with Calgon!

Palytoxin

Is there a charge if you have your own well?

IM0

Palytoxin wrote: »

Is there a charge if you have your own well?

ESPECIALLY if you have your own well

ygolometsipe

I find it highly suspicious that this Spanish study is not in Spanish!

earpiece

AnonoBoy wrote: »

I'm sure Calgon will come into this somehow.

Washing Machines (and water meters) live longer with Calgon!

But people don't!!!!

oppenheimer1

Every measuring device drifts out of calibration over time. Obvious answer here is to ensure your meter is re-calibrated at regular intervals.

Super-Rush

Threads merged.

Capt'n Midnight

tfitzgerald wrote: »

This is spot on . When people get a bill for €200 euro they will think it could have being a lot worse .

Customers of South West Water on benefits can apply to have their bill capped at £517 a year ( € 626 )

http://www.southwestwater.co.uk/index.cfm?articleid=1422

, if you meet the following conditions.

1. Your supply is metered

2. The person who pays the water bill or someone else in your household receives benefit or tax credit

3. There are either:
three or more children under the age of 19 living in the household for whom the person receiving the above benefit also claims Child Benefit; or
you or someone living in your household has a medical condition which causes extra water to be used.

This year, the reduced charges for the WaterSure scheme are
£217 for water and £300 for sewerage services for
the period 1 April 2011 to 31 March 2012

Hang on that said March and it's now April ...

http://www.southwestwater.co.uk/index.cfm?articleid=9165
The average annual household bill for water and sewerage in the region is expected to increase by 4.7 % to £543. (€ 657)




Which raises another question
When are they going to try billing for sewage here ?

Biggins

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/0417/1224314823981.html

Households face €39 charge for 20 years on water meters.

HOUSEHOLDS WILL pay an average of €39 per annum over 20 years to cover the cost of the loan from the National Pension Reserve Fund to install water meters in one million Irish homes.

Government sources confirmed yesterday the cost per household, based on the size of the NPRF loan, would work out at about €780, but that the cost would be levied as a standing charge over a period of two decades, in much the same way as such charges are already imposed by other utilities such as the ESB and Bord Gáis.

However, it was stressed that the ultimate decision on the size of the annual standing charge would be a decision for the Commission for Energy Regulation, which will be dealing with the new water metering service.

It will not be in a position to make any deliberation until the new water company had begun its operations.

Taoiseach Enda Kenny confirmed yesterday that householders would pay for the cost of the meters but that the cost would not be an upfront one. Charges are to become operable in early 2014.

“Obviously when you provide water meters somebody has to pay for them. We’ve made absolutely no decision about this. Any charge will . . . be the absolute minimum because of the difficulties that are involved here,” Mr Kenny said.

The clarification came ahead of today’s Cabinet meeting, where Minister for the Environment Phil Hogan will bring a memo setting out an implementation plan for installing water meters nationwide in time for water charges to be introduced in early 2014.

He will also bring proposals to set up the new utility company, Irish Water, on a transitional basis. It will replace the functions currently performed by 34 local authorities.

In the previous 24 hours the Government had struggled to clear up confusion surrounding the pricing model. Mr Kenny had said that households would have to pay for meters but their installation would be free.

However, Tánaiste Eamon Gilmore had said that no decision had been made on how water meters had to be paid for, while the Department of the Environment had said the cost of buying and installing meters would have to be paid for.

The Taoiseach said yesterday that as many as 2,000 jobs would be created through the installation of water meters in the State. He also set out what will be a key plank of the Government’s strategy in its efforts to persuade the public of the need for efficient water management systems by saying “water was one of the most precious commodities”.

Government sources said last night that, in general, no charge would be applied until water meters were installed. However, it is unlikely that all one million homes will have meters in place by the end of next year.

The sources said households that have no meters installed will pay an “assessed charge” based on the metered charges paid by comparable metered properties. This system will be applied to the approximately 350,000 households that will not be metered because it would be too costly or too logistically difficult.

Minister for Finance Michael Noonan said no formal decision had been taken yet over who would take over the running of the State’s water and that it would be “premature” to be speculating what costs would be involved for consumers.

“I see meters as the friend of the householder and friend of business, as they’ll prevent people from paying for water that’s wasted,” he said.

Fianna Fáil environment spokesman Niall Collins described the handling of water metering as the “latest fiasco” at the Department of the Environment.

“The lack of any clear answer from Ministers over the last 24 hours on the question of whether or not households will be asked to pay for a water meter proves one thing: this Government has no meaningful strategy on water reform.”

“Already we are seeing worrying similarities with the communications disaster that surrounded the household charge,” he said.

Sinn Féin’s Aengus Ó Snodaigh and Brian Stanley criticised the handling of the issue, as well as the potential costs for householders. The party is opposed to the charge.

€39 x 20 = €780

...For a meter that in reality if you bought it in a shop might vary in under €250 or less?
Rip-off Ireland yet again - only this time state sponsored?

And IF my reading is right - thats the installation cost?
We haven't been told the additional never ending 'rental fee' also for this meter?

Matt Bauer

I support the water charge because water is a valuable resource that needs to be carefully managed and protected. However, anyone receiving sub-par water should be exempt from paying the new water charge. At least until it's addressed.

For example, in Germany you pay for water (and sewage as well!), but you get top quality drinking water that is just as good as bottled water. Ends up saving money because there is no need to buy bottled water, and people don't waste water. The average urban domestic water and sewage bill there is €32 combined, which is €384 per year. For that you get incredibly clean water, which is unbelievably often better than bottled water, and top notch sewage treatment. In other countries, like Austria, you also get top quality water and the cost is significantly cheaper. So I think we should pay less here.

I am however against the household charge. But the water charge is a good thing, as long as it leads to better quality better managed water. It's also a fair charge, as long as it is kept reasonable, as providing water is not free. Last but not least, water should not be privatised.

Smidge

I no longer live in the big shmoke but down the country. If you take a bath in my house it is the only time in your life that you will get out dirtier than you got in.
Having said that, the water in my mothers house in the city sticks of chemicals, so much so that it would singe your nostril hair. No winners there then.

Lone Stone

ehh so what if we just buy our own feckin meter's ?

Also i dont disagree with the water charge, but the water here is fecking foul full of that floroid and going buy the nightmare we found under our back garden that was the sewer pipe for our block which consisted of ROTTEN BARREL connecting two pipe's i dread to think what state the water pipes would be like in my area.

Matt Bauer

I am not against the water charge, but households should be exempted if the water is not of high quality. Luckily, it's easy to test water quality.

Unlike the household charge, the water charge does make a lot of sense. But it needs to be used in conjunction with better water management. Likewise, water is valuable and should never be privatised.

Capt'n Midnight

One million homes

that's €780 million , and maybe it will reduce domestic water demand by 10%, maybe. We use 160L/day compared to the UK where with meters they use 150L


Does anyone have a figure for the % of water users who would go over the "allowance" ? Because the meters aren't of any use for most people, only those who exceed the quota.

Except that's wrong isn't it our allowance will be just 1/3 to 1/2 the average daily usage, not that generous when meters will only reduce demand by maybe 1/10th ,in fact it's kinda like saying almost everyone will have to pay for additional water as if water usage here is bell shaped then very few people will match the 40L or even 60L suggested.


BTW in the UK you can save money on meters, because you can choose whether to go flat rate or metered and get assessed on circumstances http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/utilities/cut-water-bills

You've 12 months to try it out. Switch to a water meter and, if you change your mind you can switch back within 12 months or a month after your second measured bill, whichever is later (move into a home which already has a meter and you can't switch back). So you can try it to see if it works out for you.

Does having a meter hit your house price? Some say meters lower a house's sale price.

How will that work here ?


Oh yeah http://www.cieh.org/library/Knowledge/Environmental_protection/waterpoverty.pdf

The Government’s standard for fuel poverty – a household needing to spend more
than 10% of its net income on fuel to achieve a satisfactory heating regime – can be
extrapolated to imply water poverty where a household needs to spend more than 3%
of its income on water charges.

Water poverty

steve9859

Meter / installation charge of €40 a year for 20 years! WOW!!!! €800! You couldn't make this up!!!

dvpower

steve9859 wrote: »

Meter / installation charge of €40 a year for 20 years! WOW!!!! €800! You couldn't make this up!!!

Since that figure is speculation only, yes you could make it up.

Biggins

dvpower wrote: »

Since that figure is speculation only, yes you could make it up.

Post 389.

...Government sources confirmed yesterday the cost per household, based on the size of the NPRF loan, would work out at about €780...

Here is the link again: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/0417/1224314823981.html

sh1tstirrer

Palytoxin wrote: »

Is there a charge if you have your own well?

No

dvpower

Biggins wrote: »

Post 389.


Here is the link again: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/0417/1224314823981.html

As I said - speculation.

However, it was stressed that the ultimate decision on the size of the annual standing charge would be a decision for the Commission for Energy Regulation, which will be dealing with the new water metering service.

It will not be in a position to make any deliberation until the new water company had begun its operations.

When you see figures coming from unnamed 'Government sources', you can take it that it is kite flying

listermint

Bishop_Donal wrote: »

BTW, in respect of tenants, I am a firm believer in allowing the free market dictate.

I jacked up the rent I charge my tenants by Eur200 to cover the introduction of the Household charge. I probably wudn't have given them a rent increase in 2012 otherwise. But if it comforts you, my tenants are actually paying it twice!!

I got hammered and accused of trolling the last time I made this point (which is not the case). The bottom line is that a rent increase of twice the magnitude of the charge was the only way I could maintain the rent I was receiving.

And before somebody points it out, I know that that my tenants will move on if I increase the rent above the market average (but they havn't so far so I take that as a good sign of my judgment in this regard).

ROFL, letting the free market decide! I suppose you must then agree with letting the free market decide on the banks instead of all this state intervention. Bearing in mind that is exactly where your payment is going to.

I would imagine your tenants are looking on property websites presently. Because if you 'jacked' up my rent id give you the fingers and be off.

smash

Without having to read through the complete thread, what's the story with the speculation that they're going to outsource water management so the councils wont have to deal with it?