Households must pay for water meters.

listermint

smash wrote: »

Without having to read through the complete thread, what's the story with the speculation that they're going to outsource water management so the councils wont have to deal with it?

Well the stated on RTE last night that a new all singing and dancing quango will be setup to manage the water services in ireland. Im sure with our track record you realise that will never stay in state ownership.

Or are you blinkered?

Biggins

dvpower wrote: »

...When you see figures coming from unnamed 'Government sources', you can take it that it is kite flying

Maybe but I'm assuming that at least a few heads in the government have enough kop to know a little about what they are talking about.
(yea, I know, I'm very optimistic - maybe too much!)

smash

listermint wrote: »

Well the stated on RTE last night that a new all singing and dancing quango will be setup to manage the water services in ireland. Im sure with our track record you realise that will never stay in state ownership.

Or are you blinkered?

What's with your attitude?

dvpower

listermint wrote: »

Well the stated on RTE last night that a new all singing and dancing quango will be setup to manage the water services in ireland. Im sure with our track record you realise that will never stay in state ownership.

Or are you blinkered?

An existing state body according to RTE this morning.

rte.ie wrote:

Ministers are expected to sign off on the State body that will take over responsibility for water services later this morning.

Bord na Móna and Bord Gáis are in contention, with the latter tipped by some observers to be the preferred choice.

Biggins

dvpower wrote: »

An existing state body according to RTE this morning.

I would honestly prefer a basic service like water, to stay in state hands.
When we start handing over everything to private business, it sometimes brings us closer yet again to the America way of doing things for example.
Something I'm personally not in favour of at times.

listermint

smash wrote: »

What's with your attitude?

Apologies, your post looked like you werent miffed reading the thread.

Nothingbetter2d

mishkalucy wrote: »

I no longer live in the big shmoke but down the country. If you take a bath in my house it is the only time in your life that you will get out dirtier than you got in.
Having said that, the water in my mothers house in the city sticks of chemicals, so much so that it would singe your nostril hair. No winners there then.

crikey you must really stink then.... either that or your bath water comes from a slurry pit.

smash

listermint wrote: »

Apologies, your post looked like you werent miffed reading the thread.

My post asked a question about outsourcing to a private company!

wes

Biggins wrote: »

I would honestly prefer a basic service like water, to stay in state hands.
When we start handing over everything to private business, it sometimes brings us closer yet again to the America way of doing things for example.
Something I'm personally not in favour of at times.

In agreement with this. Stuff like water should stay in state hand imho. Also the police and prisons as well. I have heard some horror stories about private prisons, basically keeping people inside in the US, just so they can make some money.

Capt'n Midnight

Biggins wrote: »

I would honestly prefer a basic service like water, to stay in state hands.
When we start handing over everything to private business, it sometimes brings us closer yet again to the America way of doing things for example.
Something I'm personally not in favour of at times.

Prefer ?

Infrastructure MUST remain in state hands.

Look at how much the M50 toll bridge cost us.
- €1.15Bn for an initial investment of €35 million

What has this got to do with meters ?

On February 14, 2007 the Board of the National Roads Authority announced its decision to award the contract for the construction and operation of the barrier-free tolling on the M50 to the French consortium, BetEire Flow.
...
This contract is a fixed services contract that includes the design, construction, and operation for eight years valued at €113 million, plus VAT.

Let that sink in for a minute - it's costing us a lot more to collect tolls than it cost to build the bridge, even if you double the cost to take into account the second bridge.

And there is the extra cost of renting fobs / 25-50% overhead for paying online, and that's before the opportunistic fines.

Oh and the €35 million bridge built with private money would have been worthless without the €300 million of public money that paid for the road to it. Remember this when they sell off the water system to the private sector for a fraction of it's value. :mad:

And you have to remember the "reason" for buying out the bridge was that NTR were causing traffic congestion , and hence economic knock on effects, collecting the toll. Blackmail wouldn't be too strong a word for it IMHO

With water meters it's a similar situation - there is no cost benefit to metering except to provide a revenue stream.
The money is better invested in improving the mains / educating people on not wasting water.



Look at how much the Eircom monopoly on copper cost us,
- 10 years delay in the introduction of ADSL
- how far did that set us back in the global economy ?


At this stage it could even be cheaper to give all their non ADSL customers a mobile phone, and run the network into the ground, using the freed up lines, to give time to install a new national Fibre to the cabinet network or some such. There is no point in throwing more money into that bottomless pit. Lot of jobs could be created in removing copper, though you'd have to implement some Draconian measures / controls to prevent others joining a free for all. Though the govt will probably give in to IMHO Blackmail to prop up the network.


Then there was Dublin Gas, government subsidies to it were more than the share value of the company.


Taken with the failure to impose common ducting to all new builds during the boom, I think it's safe to say we've screwed up infrastructure in a very expensive way.


The examples of NTR and Eircom show how we can easily waste billions and get nothing tangible back, except for a dog in the manger attitude.



If the waterworks get privatised, I predict it will work like Eircom. Public money will be invested in a state of the art network to fatten it up and there will then be little or no investment after privatisation. We had full direct dialing long before the UK, but since then it's been minimum spend.

Morlar

2 years ago I was asking about the cost of installation and maintenance of water meters. Finally someone has put that to a politician :

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0417/breaking3.html

Prospect of €780 water meter fee

HARRY McGEE, Political Correspondent

Tue, Apr 17, 2012

Households will pay an average of €39 per annum over 20 years ((Guarantee you this will increase)) to cover the cost of the loan from the National Pension Reserve Fund to install water meters in one million Irish homes.

Government sources confirmed yesterday the cost per household, based on the size of the NPRF loan, would work out at about €780, but that the cost would be levied as a standing charge over a period of two decades, in much the same way as such charges are already imposed by other utilities such as the ESB and Bord Gáis.

However, it was stressed that the ultimate decision on the size of the annual standing charge would be a decision for the Commission for Energy Regulation, which will be dealing with the new water metering service.

It will not be in a position to make any deliberation until the new water company had begun its operations.

Taoiseach Enda Kenny confirmed yesterday that householders would pay for the cost of the meters but that the cost would not be an upfront one. Charges are to become operable in early 2014.

“Obviously when you provide water meters somebody has to pay for them. We’ve made absolutely no decision about this. Any charge will . . . be the absolute minimum because of the difficulties that are involved here,” Mr Kenny said.

The clarification came ahead of today’s Cabinet meeting, where Minister for the Environment Phil Hogan will bring a memo setting out an implementation plan for installing water meters nationwide in time for water charges to be introduced in early 2014.

He will also bring proposals to set up the new utility company, Irish Water, on a transitional basis. It will replace the functions currently performed by 34 local authorities. ((Fantastic another fcuking financial blackhole)

Tánaiste Eamon Gilmore said today no decision had been made on water meter charges. ((he is a lying toerag))

Speaking on his way into Government Buildings for a Cabinet meeting, Mr Gilmore said pricing arrangements and proposals for setting up a water company have yet to be discussed by the Government.

He said the Cabinet would discuss the establishment of the Irish Water Company.

In the previous 24 hours the Government had struggled to clear up confusion surrounding the pricing model. Mr Kenny had said that households would have to pay for meters but their installation would be free.

Tánaiste Eamon Gilmore said today no decision had been made on water meter charges.

Speaking on his way into Government Buildings for a Cabinet meeting, Mr Gilmore said pricing arrangements and proposals for setting up a water company have yet to be discussed by the Government.

He said the Cabinet would discuss the establishment of the Irish Water Company.

The Taoiseach said yesterday that as many as 2,000 jobs would be created through the installation of water meters in the State. He also set out what will be a key plank of the Government’s strategy in its efforts to persuade the public of the need for efficient water management systems by saying “water was one of the most precious commodities”.

Government sources said last night that, in general, no charge would be applied until water meters were installed. However, it is unlikely that all one million homes will have meters in place by the end of next year.

The sources said households that have no meters installed will pay an “assessed charge” based on the metered charges paid by comparable metered properties. This system will be applied to the approximately 350,000 households that will not be metered because it would be too costly or too logistically difficult.

Minister for Finance Michael Noonan said no formal decision had been taken yet over who would take over the running of the State’s water and that it would be “premature” to be speculating what costs would be involved for consumers.

“I see meters as the friend of the householder and friend of business, as they’ll prevent people from paying for water that’s wasted,” he said.

Fianna Fáil environment spokesman Niall Collins described the handling of water metering as the “latest fiasco” at the Department of the Environment.

“The lack of any clear answer from Ministers over the last 24 hours on the question of whether or not households will be asked to pay for a water meter proves one thing: this Government has no meaningful strategy on water reform.”

“Already we are seeing worrying similarities with the communications disaster that surrounded the household charge,” he said.

Sinn Féin’s Aengus Ó Snodaigh and Brian Stanley criticised the handling of the issue, as well as the potential costs for householders. The party is opposed to the charge.

© 2012 irishtimes.com

Short version is yes you are going to pay through the nose for both the meter installation and also the ongoing maintenance, replacement and repair of said meter network into perpetuity. In addition to the actual water charges. Another fantastic Green Party initiative.

Biggins

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

...If the waterworks get privatised, I predict it will work like Eircom. Public money will be invested in a state of the art network to fatten it up and there will then be little or no investment after privatisation. We had full direct dialing long before the UK, but since then it's been minimum spend.

ALL post well said, couldn't agree more!

okedoke

I haven' read the full thread but it makes sense to me that each household would pay for its own meter. The alternative is not that it is provided free, but that the taxpayer pays for everyone's meter.

I often think those who reflexively freak out whenever a new charge is announced don't understand that money (for example to pay for meters but the same applies for any service) has to be raised somehow and if its not through targeted charges it will be through general taxation.

dvpower

I wonder will there be an option for people to pay for the cost of their meter up front. I don't really want a 20 year loan from the NPRF.

goat2

we are thinking of one of those rainwater harvesting systems that can be put underground, so that cuts out the middleman

Biggins

dvpower wrote: »

I wonder will there be an option for people to pay for the cost of their meter up front. I don't really want a 20 year loan from the NPRF.

A loan by the way...

1.35 million households paying €40 per year would raise more than €1bn -- more than double the NPRF's €450m loan.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/40-a-year-for-water-meters-no-decision-insists-gilmore-3082242.html

Groinshot

Biggins wrote: »

You might even have to pay a rental fee for the meter - after you have paid for it to be installed?

You even highlighted the part of the post that said pay a rental fee OR pay for it to be installed.....

dvpower

Biggins wrote: »

A loan by the way...



http://www.independent.ie/national-news/40-a-year-for-water-meters-no-decision-insists-gilmore-3082242.html

That's why I'd prefer to pay upfront. Any loan over a 20 year term is going to work out to be very expensive.

Biggins

Groinshot wrote: »

You even highlighted the part of the post that said pay a rental fee OR pay for it to be installed.....

Indeed - seeming as the nuts in power want everyone to far pay over the odds for the thing, either way the public is open to maybe being ripped off in possible over-charging!

If I have to pay for a meter, I want the ability to pay for it in one go - not forced to pay it off over 40 years and further having a much longer financial bill on my shoulders and giving a government an opportunity to rip me off with far inflated price for a piece of equipment!

Fiskar

Biggins wrote: »

Indeed - seeming as the nuts in power want everyone to far pay over the odds for the thing, either way the public is open to maybe being ripped off in possible over-charging!

If I have to pay for a meter, I want the ability to pay for it in one go - not forced to pay it off over 40 years and further having a much longer financial bill on my shoulders and giving a government an opportunity to rip me off with far inflated price for a piece of equipment!

What if it breaks, at least the rental charge will cover the replacement cost but you probably will have to start another 20 year loan then to pay for that one!
Anyone know how long these plastic water meters last? First winter of ice and snow and guess where the water will freeze! Probably not allowed interfere with them so you'll have to go without water.

Biggins

Fiskar wrote: »

What if it breaks, at least the rental charge will cover the replacement cost but you probably will have to start another 20 year loan then to pay for that one!
Anyone know how long these plastic water meters last? First winter of ice and snow and guess where the water will freeze! Probably not allowed interfere with them so you'll have to go without water.

To be honest, if we are buying - or a government is supplying an item, I would expect it to last up to a great high percentage of conditions - having been made and allowed for a lot of those very conditions during design phase and testing - else if the supplying company can't meet the most of those expected conditions, we or our government as part of its purchasing ability, should move on and buy an alternative which better lasting according to most expected conditions.

5live

Biggins wrote: »

To be honest, if we are buying - or a government is supplying an item, I would expect it to last up to a great high percentage of conditions - having been made and allowed for a lot of those very conditions during design phase and testing - else if the supplying company can't meet the most of those expected conditions, we or our government as part of its purchasing ability, should move on and buy an alternative which better lasting according to most expected conditions.

Ah now come on. AH is no place for reasoned arguments and common sense.:P

dvpower

Biggins wrote: »

To be honest, if we are buying - or a government is supplying an item, I would expect it to last up to a great high percentage of conditions - having been made and allowed for a lot of those very conditions during design phase and testing - else if the supplying company can't meet the most of those expected conditions, we or our government as part of its purchasing ability, should move on and buy an alternative which better lasting according to most expected conditions.

Water meters for a handful of dollars.
http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/394676218/Water_Meter.html

Even the smart RF ones are pretty cheap.
http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/549541969/Smart_Water_Meter_size_1_2_.html

These things are commodity products - we don't need to design anything new.

TheDoc

.....

Sigh, its like people didnt see this stuff coming or something with all the shock?

You voted in two parties who essentially are running a get of jail free card " Its not our fault, we are cleaning up the previous guys mess".

I'm not going to act bravado and say it won't be paid, if a charge comes in, i'll just pay it. I'm not radical or one for marches.

Simply put you deserve to be punished for your poor mistakes. The country went wandering to FG and Labour, simply put, because " you couldnt vote Fianna Fail".

So I wonder what happens next time, when you cant vote FG and Lab from all this mess, and you cant vote FF because of past instances?

Socialism?

Clare Daly of that Higgins wally in a position of power might be enough to make me nevermind marching, but storming the Dail armed.

See what happens with the household charge, we've signed up, if its pulled i'll get a refund, no sweat.

The more annoying aspect to all of this, is that the renting market is not flourishing, instead, as this country was built on " buy yourself a house " the renting market here never properly developed and now instead of it being a viable alternative, its actually just landlords slapping on added costs to cover their hole, form the loss they will make with new taxes.

Ireland is one of the only countries in Europe with an under developed and poor renting economy, where the emphasis is on buying.

At this point nothing will surprise me, but I'm treating it all with a big meh. Not in a sense that I'm wealthy, I'm not, but I just don't see what people are expecting other then charges on commodoties , items and services, that is the norm on most other countries, that we havn't had, because we have always ran with a short term plan, never a long term one.

Gmol

Biggins wrote: »

To be honest, if we are buying - or a government is supplying an item, I would expect it to last up to a great high percentage of conditions - having been made and allowed for a lot of those very conditions during design phase and testing - else if the supplying company can't meet the most of those expected conditions, we or our government as part of its purchasing ability, should move on and buy an alternative which better lasting according to most expected conditions.

Did you meet Mr E Voting machine?

Groinshot

Gmol wrote: »

Did you meet Mr E Voting machine?

That's funny on more than one level.

Biggins

Gmol wrote: »

Did you meet Mr E Voting machine?

Indeed!
A mature, insightful person - an TD even (heaven forbid!) might learn from such things.
I live in hope - if not in Ireland where things are done different.

woodoo

I don't have much of a problem with a fair property tax and water charges. But our motor tax will need to come in line with other countries. A typical 1.6 to 2.0 ltr car shouldn't be costing much more than 200 per year. This is particularly important when the property tax and water charges are up and running.

Ghandee

woodoo wrote: »

I don't have much of a problem with a fair property tax and water charges. But our motor tax will need to come in line with other countries. A typical 1.6 to 2.0 ltr car shouldn't be costing much more than 200 per year. This is particularly important when the property tax and water charges are up and running.

Absolutely.

Just taxed my car for the year, €620, now, you can say what you want, but that is fcuking scandalous!

dxhound2005

My motor tax is €185 a year.

Knight who says Meh

Ghandee wrote: »

Absolutely.

Just taxed my car for the year, €620, now, you can say what you want, but that is fcuking scandalous!

Are you driving a train?

galwayrush

dxhound2005 wrote: »

My motor tax is €185 a year.

Mine is over 1300, last car was almost 1700:mad:

Born to Die

Prime time discussing water meters now.

Born to Die

galwayrush wrote: »

Mine is over 1300, last car was almost 1700:mad:

Big engine?

galwayrush

Born to Die wrote: »

Big engine?

Yeah, still only 4 wheels on the road though...

Smidge

Nothingbetter2d wrote: »

crikey you must really stink then.... either that or your bath water comes from a slurry pit.

I'm serious, the water is awful. You most certainly wouldn't drink it. When you run the bath(white bath)you can really see the quality of the water.
Horrendous.:(

Smidge

dxhound2005 wrote: »

My motor tax is €185 a year.

I have a 1.2 and its nearly 400:eek:
What is only costing that

dxhound2005

mishkalucy wrote: »

I have a 1.2 and its nearly 400:eek:
What is only costing that

One litre Yaris, it went up from about €130 last year.

Smidge

dxhound2005 wrote: »

One litre Yaris, it went up from about €130 last year.

Mine is only a punto

mishkalucy

mishkalucy wrote: »

I'm serious, the water is awful. You most certainly wouldn't drink it. When you run the bath(white bath)you can really see the quality of the water.
Horrendous.:(

Sometimes we can't even see the plughole at all! :eek:

Ghandee

Knight who says Meh wrote: »

Are you driving a train?

2006 Passat 2 litre diesel.

Drove petrol cars for years, bought it in 06 to save in fuel costs..........

Tax on it its a killer though, upgrading in June.

AboutTwoFiddy

So the government says they won't privatise the water...hmmm...shur they wouldn't lie to us now would they?

Smidge

Deleted User wrote: »

Sometimes we can't even see the plughole at all! :eek:

Come sit with those of us who do not bathe;)

Ghandee

dxhound2005 wrote: »

One litre Yaris, it went up from about €130 last year.

Dx, you and I may not see eye to eye on various things lol.....

But that's a disgraceful increase even you must admit?

The people that bought low emission cars must feel right cheated by three motor tax

Smidge

Here's a question
Anybody who is on a group water scheme and already has a water meter fitted, will Bord Gais now be taking over these GWS?

woodoo

Ghandee wrote: »

Absolutely.

Just taxed my car for the year, €620, now, you can say what you want, but that is fcuking scandalous!

I know and all the shows on TV, Radio, Pat Kenny etc you won't hear the Motor Tax tied into the conversation when Property Tax, water charges etc are discussed. I think they should be. €620 is big money it is more like what you would expect for a Property Tax.

The politicians must be reminded about this.

Ghandee

woodoo wrote: »

I know and all the shows on TV, Radio, Pat Kenny etc you won't hear the Motor Tax tied into the conversation when Property Tax, water charges etc are discussed. I think they should be. €620 is big money it is more like what you would expect for a Property Tax.

The politicians must be reminded about this.

I think they're trying to make out that a (to most people and families) necessity item, is a 'luxury' item.
They don't appreciate that the 'motor tax' charge they've imposed on it, actually depreciates the actual resale value of it also!

drdeadlift

The real problem here now is this government lacks any hope in creating any employment opportunities what so ever,its just take take take.

BackScrub

I felt compelled to have a look at a recent payslip in light of these recent charges. In the context of these charges I pay:

PAYE - €218.50 x 24 = €5,244
PRSI - €61.45 x 24 = €1,474.80
USC - €98.44 x 24 = €2,362.56

Car Tax - €350
Bin Charges - €240
Management Fees - €400

This comes to annual fees of €10,071.36.

Now, call me cynical if you like, but if the new charges are to cover the cost of local services, where in the name of f*ck is my €10K going?

I pay a TV licence, VHI, my visits to the dentist have been cut from 2 to 1. I'm pretty sure we'll get screwed on some kind of broadband charge in the near future with maybe a few more stealth taxes introduced on top.

I feel like I'm getting nothing back from the state in return for what I pay. Please tell me I'm not alone.

PS

To those t*ossers who ask why people "like me" expect water and local services for free:

Have a word with yourselves. Please.

Capt'n Midnight

woodoo wrote: »

I don't have much of a problem with a fair property tax and water charges. But our motor tax will need to come in line with other countries.

*shouts* "VRT"
and runs away



The big problem with the meters is they benefit the suppliers, the installers and possibly the future owners. Due to EU tendering none of these need to be local. So think of it as a flow of money out of the state.


It's like the M50 toll, we paid for the roads that lead to the bridge
we bought out the bridge
we paid for the tolling system that cost more than the bridge
and we still pay a collection fee in addition to the toll to use it


traffic on the M50 is lighter than it would be if it was unmetered
we'd have saved €118 million by not tolling it and taking the revenue elsewhere
users would save on the tags, fees and fines.


I feel that in an ideal world meters could be fairer, but only if they could be introduced at nominal real cost. And that's not going to happen. ( well actually the costs will fall rapidly with each generation of smart meter - in theory we could replace Eircom's network with wired meters, and wire in Gas and leccy too , possibly for a cost of doing this. - gas and electricity and other existing meters can be monitored with USB cameras, this isn't rocket science, this isn't €300 per house to do the all - the costs here are enough to wire up a lot more than one type of meter piecemeal )



Also the M50 shows what happens when you get in a monopoly , a €35 million bridge winds up costing €1.15 billion. There are far far too many bad contracts where the state has been held to a disadvantage - look at how much it will cost to NOT supply waste to the Dublin incinerator.

Also given past history you can't rule out backhanders



Household charge could include a water component. The situation at present is that the water meters are costing more than seven years of household charge. Indefensible.

Yes the charge will go up, but so too will the water rates.

20 years paying back loans is scary when the whole idea is to get money now.


I think the best idea is we all pretend to have water meters installed, the Trokia give us a pat on the head and the money gets spent on fixing the water mains. And neigbourhood watch and residents committes organise mobs with pitchforks and torches to track down water wasters.




PS. what's the story with sharing water with the neighours ?
Two houses, one meter