Family disappear in 1911??

binxeo

Ok, I have my family on the 1901 census, but when I search for them in 1911 I cannot find them anywhere. I did find a daughter living with her aunt but that is it. All the rest of them are gone. Can't find the parents either.

Any advice on how or why this might happen or where I can find where they moved to or what happened them.

Also this same family I have burial records for the mum and two of the children but the father isn't buried with them. Is this common and is there anyway to find his burial details when I don't know when he died and and when he wasn't buried with his wife and kids. :rolleyes:

This is the last branch of my family tree I can't find more details on, I have gotten as far back 1740 on others in the family and this is driving me nuts. Any and all help appreciated.

pinkypinky

It's most likely to be a transcription error - if you're still here now and they were there in 1901, it's unlikely to be some sort of temporary emmigration. Mess around with spelling or search for just the least common first name + occupation and approx age in the right county and then trawl through the results.

binxeo

Hey,

I have thought of that, but it is hard to figure out who I am finding. I found the family in Dublin, but I was told they lived in Wicklow. It's very confusing and it feels like a dead end.

pinkypinky

Something important to remember: just because you were told a fact i.e. family came from Wicklow, it doesn't mean it's definitely true. Sometimes the received info is not correct - without malicious intent.

CeannRua

If you know a likely area (street, townland, DED etc) you could also try filling in a placename field and leave the personal name fields blank; but filter for people of the correct denomination etc to narrow down. This will bring up all living there and you might spot likely mistranscriptions. I've found people doing this. You need to make sure you have the placename spelling as it has been recorded though obviously. Is the daughter listed with the aunt living there or just visiting?

What is your source of information about who is buried in the grave? Assume it's a common name when you don't know when he died?? Would something like the cancelled land books help you narrow down when he died?

binxeo

CeannRua wrote: »

If you know a likely area (street, townland, DED etc) you could also try filling in a placename field and leave the personal name fields blank; but filter for people of the correct denomination etc to narrow down. This will bring up all living there and you might spot likely mistranscriptions. I've found people doing this. You need to make sure you have the placename spelling as it has been recorded though obviously. Is the daughter listed with the aunt living there or just visiting?

What is your source of information about who is buried in the grave? Assume it's a common name when you don't know when he died?? Would something like the cancelled land books help you narrow down when he died?

@Pinky thanks for that. Maybe the info is wrong.

The source info for the burial is from the glasnevin trust. Got printout of the burial details and it all matches.
How do I know from the census if the daughter was visiting or living there?
I don't know what the cancelled land books are so not sure if they would help, but it couldn't hurt to investigate that source!

Also the name is Byrne, very common in Wicklow, needle in a haystack to be fair lol

CeannRua

On the census, sometimes people are listed as 'visitor.'

The cancelled land books are in the Valuation Office in Dublin. Google and you'll find info. They're basically a continuation on of Griffith's Valuation. You would need the location though for them to be of any use.

Coolnabacky1873

pinkypinky wrote: »

It's most likely to be a transcription error - if you're still here now and they were there in 1901, it's unlikely to be some sort of temporary emmigration. Mess around with spelling or search for just the least common first name + occupation and approx age in the right county and then trawl through the results.

I have also seen a good few census returns when the person filling in the information entered the surnames in the first name column and vice versa.

These returns have been transcribed as is. So try the surname in the first name search box.

dido2

I had someone on here help me find a family, the name was totally not what I was looking for, mis spelt and mis transcribed...

If you want to post names some of us might be able to help you track them down..

It was very common for husbands and wives not to be buried together, from what I've been told each of them went back to their families to be buried

binxeo

Thanks Dido,

Yeh the family name is Byrne, they are found on the 1901 census here http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/North_Dock/Emerald_Street/1274893/

I know Denis died in WW1 1917 and Esther and Joesph were buried with their mother, Annie was not.

Annie could have been know as either May or Birdie.

Mary, the wife was Alpin and I have traced that side back as far as 1740. I have John and Mary's marriage details. The married Q4 1885 in Rathdrum. I have estimated that John was born in 1858.

I have a baptism record for a John Byrne in Rathdrum, for the 2 Aug 1858. Listed on it is address as Knockrath Little, Rathdrum, Co. Wicklow. Roman Catholic. Parents are John Byrne and Elizabeth Lawless. But I have no way of knowing if this is the right John Byrne.

Any and all help is appreciated. I am guessing if I could get the marriage cert for John and Mary, if the parents names are listed on that it might help some. But I know it was usual only the fathers names listed on the marriage cert, so I am stumped.

pinkypinky

Definitely only fathers' names on civil marriage certs before the 1960s, but you definitely need to order that 1885 cert for confirmation. It may also give actual ages, though listing "full", which is 21 or over, is common at that period. At least the addresses may turn up other potential parishes to check church records in.

binxeo

How do I order a marriage cert. I have look on the GRO website and it is really confusing. They seem to only do recent cert, want pps no etc.

pinkypinky

Binxeo,

You have to use the modern form.

If you haven't read the sticky already, then that should be your first port of call - I've clarified how to order from the GRO in it.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056388162

Pinky

binxeo

Been through the sticky with a fine tooth comb. lol. Just got confused on the GRO stuff. But my trusty partner just explained to me what I need to do, it was actually very simple. lol

BTW, that sticky is great, I wouldn't have gotten as far as I have without it. Fair Play

dido2

Have you worked backwards with certs to see if they lead you to different addresses??

I actually did get a mothers name on a marriage cert!!

Death certs can give some info too, like if the person was a widow or a widower which helps narrow down who in a couple died first...

I have looked to see if I can find them but couldn't, I have heard that there are some streets that are available on line on the census but won't come up in a search so you could try looking at each street outwards from the other address to see if they moved

binxeo

dido2 wrote: »

Have you worked backwards with certs to see if they lead you to different addresses??

I actually did get a mothers name on a marriage cert!!

Death certs can give some info too, like if the person was a widow or a widower which helps narrow down who in a couple died first...

I have looked to see if I can find them but couldn't, I have heard that there are some streets that are available on line on the census but won't come up in a search so you could try looking at each street outwards from the other address to see if they moved

TBH, the research I have done so far has cost very little, so I haven't gotten certs etc. As I simply don't have the money right now. Things are tight, as they are for most people right now. Going to go back to my dad and see if he has anymore information he can give me. I will go from there then, it might not be completely accurate but it pointed me in the right direction so far, so hopefully.

I will report back if I find anything, wish me luck :rolleyes:

pinkypinky

You aren't going to be able to progress your research very far without getting a few certs. The cheapest copies are €4. I suggest setting aside a small budget, really narrowing down your options and then get into the GRO to order the certs. They only let you have 5 a day, so your max spend will be €20.

We all know how expensive this hobby is! I'm tempted to start a thread asking people to guess how much money they've spent. I'm into a few thousand, but am counting the cost of my 3 year UCD cert in that!!

binxeo

pinkypinky wrote: »

You aren't going to be able to progress your research very far without getting a few certs. The cheapest copies are €4. I suggest setting aside a small budget, really narrowing down your options and then get into the GRO to order the certs. They only let you have 5 a day, so your max spend will be €20.

We all know how expensive this hobby is! I'm tempted to start a thread asking people to guess how much money they've spent. I'm into a few thousand, but am counting the cost of my 3 year UCD cert in that!!

Yeh it is definitely expensive, that is for sure. Well at the min I am not working so maybe if I get working again I will be able to afford to go further. I know it is only €20 in the GRO, but it is the getting there and back and getting a sitter for the kids for the time I am away and the penny's really start adding up. Ah I have gotten pretty far as it is and the records aren't going any where. I will keep tipping along for the minute.

dido2

binxeo

You could just order directly from the GRO if you've a debit or credit card, thats how I've done my research, I order based on how much of a budget I have that particular time, I write out my lists a few weeks ahead of when I'm going to order and I nearly always end up knocking some names off the list as no go's so it saves ordering certs that I didn't need in the first place!!

I'm at home with my kids too and it's what saves my sanity doing the family research, it's my one luxury!!!

RGM

pinkypinky wrote: »

It's most likely to be a transcription error - if you're still here now and they were there in 1901, it's unlikely to be some sort of temporary emmigration. Mess around with spelling or search for just the least common first name + occupation and approx age in the right county and then trawl through the results.

As unlikely as it is, I wouldn't rule it out without consideration. I had a similar problem, but discovered the family had spent 8-9 years in Scotland. Luckily I found them on a Scottish census.

binxeo

So a bit of an update on this, I had a look this morning to try and find the grave of John Byrne. My dad had told me he thought it was in Three Mile Water in Wicklow and sure enough I found a graveyard (Ennisboyne),in Three Mile Water, with Byrne's buried in it and as I scrolled through the list of names and dates I saw, "Denis Byrne, died in France in 1917" BINGO!! That is my ggrandfather....YAY!! So I kept looking and I found his dad John Byrne and his mum and dad, Joesph and Anne Byrne and it gave the ages they were when they died, I thought brilliant this will really help me looking for them on familysearch.org. So with my new information I set to work only to not find anything. There are at least another 12 people buried in this grave and I can't find marriage or birth records or anything online...So it is now nearly 12 hours later and I am close to tears. I got so far and hit another brick wall!!! Any and all help and advice mush appreciated folks!!!

shanew

Unfortunately with a very common Wicklow surname like Byrne it's not going to be easy to find likely matches based purely on the BMD Index. Three mile water is in Wicklow PLU/Registration district, so you can try narrowing down the search area a little in civil records using this.

Do any of the inscriptions mention where your Byrnes lived - i.e. which townland ? Have you found this family in Wicklow on the 1911 and/or 1901 census ?

If it's pre-1864 records you are looking for then the area where the graveyard is located is in the civil parish of Dunganstown, and the RC parish of Kilbride & Barndarrig. Records for this parish are available in the National Library on microfilm Pos. 6615.The NLI films only seem to cover back to 1858.

Update : The NLI Index mentions 'See Blessington' for this film, but I think this is a mixup with a different Kilbride near the Dublin/Blessington Road. (There are four separate townlands named Kilbride in Co. Wicklow)


Shane

lottpaul

That seems to be a huge number of people buried in a single grave, but presumably they are all related.

• Would there be a local historical society that might have info perhaps?
• Wicklow County Council probably has a caretaker/recordkeeper for the graveyard who might have some useful information or would know of a local person who might still have a memory of your relatives?
• There is an old Church of Ireland church beside the cemetery - now closed, but perhaps they had records for all burials in the graveyard?

BTW, Ennisboyne (Three Mile Water) is another one of those places that St Patrick is supposed to have landed at before he eventually received a warmer welcome further north.

(As an aside, did you get all of the names of burials etc online or did you have to go via a library?)

shanew

I think binxeo located a headstone for this Byrne family, and that's where the details were located ?

or maybe from Cantwells Memorials ?
This usually only covers inscriptions up to about 1880, but includes some later inscriptions if the headstone in question induces older burials. Various libraries have copies of this..

CeannRua

I'd go along with the idea of trying to find burial registers - contacting Wicklow Co Co.

Are you sure all of these people are actually buried in the grave or might the headstone just be a memorial to some of them? The soldier who died in France during WW1 for instance. Are we talking a single grave or a plot comprising a couple of grave spaces? Just thinking their deaths would not be registered in the district you would expect if the headstone is only a memorial to some.

binxeo

shanew wrote: »

Unfortunately with a very common Wicklow surname like Byrne it's not going to be easy to find likely matches based purely on the BMD Index. Three mile water is in Wicklow PLU/Registration district, so you can try narrowing down the search area a little in civil records using this.

Do any of the inscriptions mention where your Byrnes lived - i.e. which townland ? Have you found this family in Wicklow on the 1911 and/or 1901 census ?

If it's pre-1864 records you are looking for then the area where the graveyard is located is in the civil parish of Dunganstown, and the RC parish of Kilbride & Barndarrig. Records for this parish are available in the National Library on microfilm Pos. 6615.The NLI films only seem to cover back to 1858.

Update : The NLI Index mentions 'See Blessington' for this film, but I think this is a mixup with a different Kilbride near the Dublin/Blessington Road. (There are four separate townlands named Kilbride in Co. Wicklow)


Shane

Hey wow that's a lot of info. Ok to answer your questions.

One of the burials lists Ballinacloe as where John Byrne was from. I found this John Byrne and his family in Emerald Street in Dublin in 1901 and couldn't locate them after that. He is my gggrandad. And I know they didn't emigrate or anything like that.
I spoke to my father last night and the name Ballinacloe House was something he remembered. He said that when John Byrne died from Ballinacloe house the family sold the farm and bought a farm in Prosperous Co. Kildare.I have a cemetery record from Glasnevin where John Byrnes wife and son are buried and their son Joseph was listed as living in Prosperous when he died. So that much of the oral history is correct. It seems my dad's info is very accurate. There is a lot he has told me that has later been verified as fact.

This is the link where I got the information on the interments in Three Mile Water....http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/IRL-WICKLOW/2002-11/1037528782
If you scroll down to the end of that page you will see the listings.

lottpaul wrote: »

That seems to be a huge number of people buried in a single grave, but presumably they are all related.

I am just assuming that they were all buried in the one grave from the way the details were written in the link above. Grave 5, a, b, c, d. I figured it was different inscriptions on the one stone, but I could be wrong.

lottpaul wrote: »

• Would there be a local historical society that might have info perhaps?

That I don't know. I am not from Wicklow myself and I am not sure if there is anyone local I could ask for help. Also I am tied to the house at the min and I can't drive to Wicklow to find out either. But me and my dad are hoping to plan a trip for during the summer to visit all the places the family were recorded as living etc.

lottpaul wrote: »

• Wicklow County Council probably has a caretaker/recordkeeper for the graveyard who might have some useful information or would know of a local person who might still have a memory of your relatives?

That would be really great but how would I find that person?

lottpaul wrote: »

• There is an old Church of Ireland church beside the cemetery - now closed, but perhaps they had records for all burials in the graveyard?

This is something that my dad was very certain of is that there was a Church of Ireland connection on this side of the family but he didn't know how or when it changed to RC. Was this graveyard COI??

BTW, Ennisboyne (Three Mile Water) is another one of those places that St Patrick is supposed to have landed at before he eventually received a warmer welcome further north.

(As an aside, did you get all of the names of burials etc online or did you have to go via a library?)[/QUOTE]

See the link I posted above, that is where I got the info from. I hope it is reliable, but I think it is.

CeannRua wrote: »

I'd go along with the idea of trying to find burial registers - contacting Wicklow Co Co.

Are you sure all of these people are actually buried in the grave or might the headstone just be a memorial to some of them? The soldier who died in France during WW1 for instance. Are we talking a single grave or a plot comprising a couple of grave spaces? Just thinking their deaths would not be registered in the district you would expect if the headstone is only a memorial to some.

I have no idea if there are all buried in the gave lol I know Denis is just a memorial but from the oral history it was believed that they were all buried here. I found some of the death registrations on familysearch.org. But it is the marriages and births I can't find. I know for sure that they died and the dates of death and est age at death matches the gravestone but there is no evidence these folks every lived, or were baptized of married. lol If they were COI would those records come up on familysearch. It is my main resources cause it is free and I am broke. Or is there some other free site that I could get the information from.

Thanks for all the help folks. As I mentioned I am broke and stuck at home so my only way of looking into all of this is online and free. So please bare that in mind when giving me advice. I know there are lots of places in Dublin I can see records etc and websites that I can get info, but unfortunately funds and freedom is not available at the moment.

CeannRua

I don't think you're going to get answers to your questions online for free.

Looking at the people listed at 5abcd in that link most if not all of them were born and probably married (if Catholic) before civil registration began. That is why you can't find them on FamilySearch.

I would contact Wicklow Co Co offices first rather than trying to track down an individual graveyard caretaker for the burial registers.

binxeo

Hey thanks for your reply. I have managed to get a good but free on line so far, it tends to take a lot more work though.

I was hoping that it might be on familysearch as they have records for marriage and birth from the 1600's. Although I am still pretty new to this so finding my feet as it were with what records are there and what aren't.

I will try contacting Wicklow Co.Co next week and see how I get on.

lottpaul

Did a small bit of googling and phoning some relatives in Wicklow.
Link here to Wicklow Co Co burial ground caretakers http://www.wicklow.ie/Apps/WicklowBeta/Environment/OtherServices/BurialGrounds.aspx

the full list of caretakers is in an appendix at the end -- the name, address and phone number for each is listed there, including Three Mile Water.

Three Mile Water is a "free" graveyard - administered but not owned by the Council and many of the burials there are from outside of Kilbride parish - especially Wicklow+Rathnew+Ashford.
There are 2 sections to the graveyard - a very old one dating back many many centuries and a newer one from the middle of the last century.
The Church of Ireland church was relatively new and although there are some C of I burials in the old section I'm told most parishioners were buried in Dunganstown Churchyard.
The name Ballinacloe doesn't seem to be on any census but could it be Ballinaclogh? The pronunciation would be very simialar and there were lots of variations in spellings. That's a townland on the N11 near Rathnew (Glenealy/Ashford parish DED)and in 1911 there are several Byrnes living there - none in 1901 I'm afraid, but as others have said, Byrnes in Wicklow ,,,,,,

When looking up familysearch etc the Rathdrum district covers ALL of east Wicklow, including Glenealy, Dunganstown etc so it makes it a bit more difficult to sort out who is who.

The last burial - John Byrne, 1940, aged 84 -- he must surely be on one of the census returns. He would definitely be in the burial register and the name of the "informant" would be helpful. Assuming his age is accurate-ish he was 55 or so in 1911 and there cant be too many with that name and age in Wicklow and Dublin. (Hopefully)

Best of luck.

binxeo

lottpaul wrote: »

Did a small bit of googling and phoning some relatives in Wicklow.
Link here to Wicklow Co Co burial ground caretakers http://www.wicklow.ie/Apps/WicklowBeta/Environment/OtherServices/BurialGrounds.aspx

the full list of caretakers is in an appendix at the end -- the name, address and phone number for each is listed there, including Three Mile Water.

Three Mile Water is a "free" graveyard - administered but not owned by the Council and many of the burials there are from outside of Kilbride parish - especially Wicklow+Rathnew+Ashford.
There are 2 sections to the graveyard - a very old one dating back many many centuries and a newer one from the middle of the last century.
The Church of Ireland church was relatively new and although there are some C of I burials in the old section I'm told most parishioners were buried in Dunganstown Churchyard.
The name Ballinacloe doesn't seem to be on any census but could it be Ballinaclogh? The pronunciation would be very simialar and there were lots of variations in spellings. That's a townland on the N11 near Rathnew (Glenealy/Ashford parish DED)and in 1911 there are several Byrnes living there - none in 1901 I'm afraid, but as others have said, Byrnes in Wicklow ,,,,,,

When looking up familysearch etc the Rathdrum district covers ALL of east Wicklow, including Glenealy, Dunganstown etc so it makes it a bit more difficult to sort out who is who.

The last burial - John Byrne, 1940, aged 84 -- he must surely be on one of the census returns. He would definitely be in the burial register and the name of the "informant" would be helpful. Assuming his age is accurate-ish he was 55 or so in 1911 and there cant be too many with that name and age in Wicklow and Dublin. (Hopefully)

Best of luck.

Wow thanks that is all great. As for John, yes I have him and his family in Emerald St in Dublin in 1901. Just need to find them in 1911. Going to have a look now. Thanks for all your help, much appreciated. Really.

CeannRua

binxeo wrote: »

Hey thanks for your reply. I have managed to get a good but free on line so far, it tends to take a lot more work though.

I was hoping that it might be on familysearch as they have records for marriage and birth from the 1600's. Although I am still pretty new to this so finding my feet as it were with what records are there and what aren't.

I will try contacting Wicklow Co.Co next week and see how I get on.

These earlier collections on FamilySearch are incomplete. Re burial registers, I wouldn't rely on graveyard caretakers having old registers - would also contact the Co Co.

binxeo

Can anyone help me with searching for this. Got no luck with the Co. Co. They said they would get someone to call me back and it didn't happen!!

Dun

Any chance this is them? http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Rathmines___Rathgar_East/Elmgrove/52171/

binxeo

Dun wrote: »

Any chance this is them? http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Rathmines___Rathgar_East/Elmgrove/52171/

Hi unfortunately not. Mary Byrne died in 1906. Thanks for looking though.

The Wicklow Kid

The grave at Three Mile Water is still attended by the Byrne family the are living in Wicklow Near the Beehive pub on the N11. If you send me a private message with your phone number I can give you a call with there details.

MajorMax

I had the same problem as the OP. Family was there in 1901 and gone in 1911. Turns out the name was in Irish AND misspelled in 1911, took me ages to find them

owenc

Same thing happened to my great granny. Shes in 1911 census but not 1901 census.

Dont know where they are. They didnt move.