Graphics and Case Upgrade

NiallFH

Considering a few upgrades to the computer, the current set up is:

Power Supply: Corsair Builder Series 500 W PSU
CPU: AMD Phenom x4 965 3.2 GHz CPU
RAM: 4 GB RAM (Motherboard cant take anymore)
Motherboard: Asus Motherboard, I'm not 100% sure on the model, will need to double check when I get home but its nothing flash, a £40 board probably.
Graphics Card: Nvidia GTS 450

Its for gaming so I wont list the HDD or Dvd drive, they arent important to me.

I mostly play WoW and a bit of LoL. Atm I can comfortably run WoW in busy area's with the grpahics on good, want to try upgrade and push it on to Ultra.

Im thinking my GPU would be the biggest bottleneck so would want to upgrade it, im looking at the Nvidia GTX 560 TI. Would this cut it or would I need to spend more?

Also after a case, want something in red and black, anyone know anywhere good to get one?

Will be shipping to the North btw, Armagh.

ShadowHearth

What's your budget? 6870 would set you back around 150eu. Great card amd won't bottleneck your system. You might chance it and find second hand 6950 too.

If you willing to spend around 100eu on case, then nzxt phantom comes in full red with black details. Nice case.

uncle_sam_ie

My picks would be, http://www2.hardwareversand.de/articledetail.jsp?aid=45198&agid=1004
and
http://www2.hardwareversand.de/articledetail.jsp?aid=52114&agid=631

But yeah, what's your budget?

NiallFH

Cheers for the input guys, looking to spend around £200/250EU.

Reckon the 6870 is better than the 560 TI then? Also is it worth upgrading to from a GTS 450 or would the FPS increase be small?

Do Hardwarversand still only take bank transfers? I found it to be difficult to do before, they needed to recieve the money within the week but my bank cant do it that fast.

Serephucus

Um... a GTS 450 will get 56FPS even at 2560x1600, and I'd assume that you don't have a monitor that big. It's your CPU that's holding you back.

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Axle/GeForce_GTS_450_OC/21.html

uncle_sam_ie

Something is holding it back because I was playing WoW with a Phenom 9950 BE and HD 5770 on Ultra.

NiallFH

Serephucus wrote: »

I'd assume that you don't have a monitor that big. It's your CPU that's holding you back.

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Axle/GeForce_GTS_450_OC/21.html

I do have a pretty big monitor, probably should have mentioned that, its 27", the one linked below:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B003ZMP1LI/ref=oh_o04_s00_i00_details

I can see FPS of 50 and higher on ultra when in lower crowded area's but I do pre made battlegrounds at times and in some there can be 80 people on screen and I have to drop to low and I get about 20 FPS.

I didnt think the CPU would be a problem as the GPU is very entry level.


Those benchmarks linked arent great because they are for the last expansion also they dont say what they are doing at the time, being engaged in combat with 25 other people and standing in the middle of nowhere afk will see very different FPS

ShadowHearth

CPU is not a bottleneck in this case, it's gpu.

Serephucus

But mostly with a bunch of people around, that's CPU calculations, not graphics. Don't get me wrong, a graphics upgrade probably wouldn't hurt, but I still think a CPU upgrade will do more for you.

Also, by the looks of it your monitor is only 1920x1080, so that's fine.

You proved it yourself. You're in a busy area, you turn the graphics down to low, and you still get 20FPS - it's your CPU. If you're not sure, leave Task Manager open on the Performance tab, and have a look at your CPU usage after a really busy part.

ShadowHearth

Serephucus wrote: »

But mostly with a bunch of people around, that's CPU calculations, not graphics. Don't get me wrong, a graphics upgrade probably wouldn't hurt, but I still think a CPU upgrade will do more for you.

Also, by the looks of it your monitor is only 1920x1080, so that's fine.

You proved it yourself. You're in a busy area, you turn the graphics down to low, and you still get 20FPS - it's your CPU. If you're not sure, leave Task Manager open on the Performance tab, and have a look at your CPU usage after a really busy part.

I played with q6600 and 8800gt and I had problems at places like stormwind bank, but after upgrade to 6870 it all fixed up. Now that amd processor will be even better q6600.

NiallFH

Serephucus wrote: »

But mostly with a bunch of people around, that's CPU calculations, not graphics. Don't get me wrong, a graphics upgrade probably wouldn't hurt, but I still think a CPU upgrade will do more for you.

Also, by the looks of it your monitor is only 1920x1080, so that's fine.

You proved it yourself. You're in a busy area, you turn the graphics down to low, and you still get 20FPS - it's your CPU. If you're not sure, leave Task Manager open on the Performance tab, and have a look at your CPU usage after a really busy part.

Pretty sure it is 1920x1080 in work at the minute though so cant be sure.

No, sorry what I meant was, for example in a slightly less busy scenario, me and say 10 others I will get around 50 FPS.

If I'm running with around 80 people it will be unplayable on Good so I drop to low and can get around 20 FPS. So with more people dropping the graphics settings does help me.

Would you still say its the CPU? If so I would an i5 2500k do the trick? Only problem there is I would probably have to upgrade my mobo too

Serephucus

I couldn't say for sure, but it would be my guess, yes.

Try monitoring your CPU and GPU usage. Task Manager will do CPU, MSI Afterburner will do GPU. Post back screenshots.

ShadowHearth

NiallFH wrote: »

Pretty sure it is 1920x1080 in work at the minute though so cant be sure.

No, sorry what I meant was, for example in a slightly less busy scenario, me and say 10 others I will get around 50 FPS.

If I'm running with around 80 people it will be unplayable on Good so I drop to low and can get around 20 FPS. So with more people dropping the graphics settings does help me.

Would you still say its the CPU? If so I would an i5 2500k do the trick? Only problem there is I would probably have to upgrade my mobo too

Well you have two camps here now.

Like I said above I used q6600 with 8800gt and had problems, then upgraded to 6870 and it was unreal difference.
I just checked and your CPU is better then q6600 by quite a bit, plus you can overclock it so make it even better. So your gpu is a problem.
You will need about 300++ eu for 2500k setup, which will leave you Iin same position - bottlenecked gpu.

NiallFH

I'm inclined to agree Shadowhearth but there is no harm in testing to be sure I will have to monitor both when im home from work to see whats causing the bottleneck.

I always expected to have to upgrade the GPU I bought what I could afford at the time and it has done well by me but I want more performance now for MoP, time to push for Glad rank in arena lol.

I will get that MSI afterburner tonight and check it out Serephucus, would you recommend monitoring them under a heavy load?

Also just incase anyone knows about Hardwarversand can you pay by credit or debit card these days or is it still only bank transfer?

ShadowHearth

NiallFH wrote: »

I'm inclined to agree Shadowhearth but there is no harm in testing to be sure I will have to monitor both when im home from work to see whats causing the bottleneck.

I always expected to have to upgrade the GPU I bought what I could afford at the time and it has done well by me but I want more performance now for MoP, time to push for Glad rank in arena lol.

I will get that MSI afterburner tonight and check it out Serephucus, would you recommend monitoring them under a heavy load?

Also just incase anyone knows about Hardwarversand can you pay by credit or debit card these days or is it still only bank transfer?

Do you have 2 monitors? Then just usage simple widget that comes with wondows. It shows how much ram and CPU is used at the moment, or just use task mananger and recourse monitor.

For gpu load afterburner has on screen display option. Put on the gpu usage and fps to be shown.

Serephucus

Well it wouldn't make much sense to test it in an open field with nothing going on. Try playing on ultra (or whatever your usual settings are) somewherre non-busy, then somewhere busy, then drop graphics settings to low, and try non-busy and busy again, and see what your usage is like at those four times.

HWVS can accept PayPal as well, but they'll charge an extra 3%.

ShadowHearth

Serephucus wrote: »

Well it wouldn't make much sense to test it in an open field with nothing going on. Try playing on ultra (or whatever your usual settings are) somewherre non-busy, then somewhere busy, then drop graphics settings to low, and try non-busy and busy again, and see what your usage is like at those four times.

HWVS can accept PayPal as well, but they'll charge an extra 3%.

Well of he is getting 20fps on low in busy places, then how much is he getting on ultra?

From personal experience ( yup I am a sad sad person ) wow on ultra does not give much of visual improvement. Even now with my pc, which is really not bad by today's standart, is going around 60 fps at stormwind bank on ultra. so in busy hectic battlegrounds it's normal to see fps go so much down.
Even still wow os not that much dependant on CPU as it looks like. Starcraft 2 is different story.

uncle_sam_ie

ShadowHearth wrote: »

For gpu load afterburner has on screen display option. Put on the gpu usage and fps to be shown.

I didn't know that. Thank's for the tip.:)

uncle_sam_ie

ShadowHearth wrote: »

Well of he is getting 20fps on low in busy places, then how much is he getting on ultra?

From personal experience ( yup I am a sad sad person ) wow on ultra does not give much of visual improvement. Even now with my pc, which is really not bad by today's standart, is going around 60 fps at stormwind bank on ultra. so in busy hectic battlegrounds it's normal to see fps go so much down.
Even still wow os not that much dependant on CPU as it looks like. Starcraft 2 is different story.

Has the 64bit WoW version made a difference?

Serephucus

ShadowHearth wrote: »

Well of he is getting 20fps on low in busy places, then how much is he getting on ultra?

That's a very good question, and will be one of the things to watch for to see if he is GPU-limited.

ShadowHearth

well if OP will be very nice to me and will compliment my big E-penis, then i could fire up my old q6600 with 6870 and check what fps i am getting on ultra 1920x1080!

Serephucus

Well if you were doing that, I'd check your CPU usage more than anything. Your 6870 is more powerful than the GTS 450 by a fair bit, so all you'd be interested in there is how much stress is on your CPU.

ShadowHearth

Serephucus wrote: »

Well if you were doing that, I'd check your CPU usage more than anything. Your 6870 is more powerful than the GTS 450 by a fair bit, so all you'd be interested in there is how much stress is on your CPU.

well in all fairness, is he aiming to improve his playing experience for the smallest cost, or just update system to newer cooler components. If GPU upgrade helps in his case, why would CPU even be something to look in to? The worst component in that system is GPU, and switching GPU will make the most benefit for lowest price to him. surely he can splash money on lovely 2500k, but he will still be with old crapy gpu which wont be able to push it self hard, because of GPU bottleneck.

it would not be so obvious, if i would not had been in same position myself.

NiallFH

ShadowHearth wrote: »

Do you have 2 monitors?

Nope, just the one.

Serephucus wrote: »

Well it wouldn't make much sense to test it in an open field with nothing going on. Try playing on ultra (or whatever your usual settings are) somewherre non-busy, then somewhere busy, then drop graphics settings to low, and try non-busy and busy again, and see what your usage is like at those four times.

HWVS can accept PayPal as well, but they'll charge an extra 3%.

I'll test it in a few different scenario's when I get home this evening. Has that always been the case? They didnt offer me that option around november time last year.

ShadowHearth wrote: »

Well of he is getting 20fps on low in busy places, then how much is he getting on ultra?

When I say busy I dont mean Stormwind type, on Ultra there I would get maybe 30 FPS. By busy I mean an AV Pre made where the full 80 players are all on screen fighting at once.

ShadowHearth wrote: »

well if OP will be very nice to me and will compliment my big E-penis, then i could fire up my old q6600 with 6870 and check what fps i am getting on ultra 1920x1080!

I hear its beautiful and what it lacks in length it makes up for in girth

ShadowHearth

NiallFH wrote: »

Nope, just the one.



I'll test it in a few different scenario's when I get home this evening. Has that always been the case? They didnt offer me that option around november time last year.



When I say busy I dont mean Stormwind type, on Ultra there I would get maybe 30 FPS. By busy I mean an AV Pre made where the full 80 players are all on screen fighting at once.



I hear its beautiful and what it lacks in length it makes up for in girth

so you want me to go fire up the old girl so? check fps?if you would be on same server, we could be there at same time and see difference real time.

Tea_Bag

isn't wow single threaded? an easy test is to OC to around 4Ghz and see if there is a noticeable difference. but I'd only do that if task manager showed a 100% CPU usage in those intense scenarios.

NiallFH

ShadowHearth wrote: »

so you want me to go fire up the old girl so? check fps?if you would be on same server, we could be there at same time and see difference real time.

Nah man, appreciate the offer but wouldnt ask you to go to the trouble.

I can just test the stress in my CPU on busy area's and see how it goes, fairly convinced its the GPU because I run multiple programs at once along with WoW and closing them has no effect on wow performance.

ShadowHearth

NiallFH wrote: »

Nah man, appreciate the offer but wouldnt ask you to go to the trouble.

I can just test the stress in my CPU on busy area's and see how it goes, fairly convinced its the GPU because I run multiple programs at once along with WoW and closing them has no effect on wow performance.

no problem there bud.

anywya, let us know when you done the testing, though i know the answer already .

NiallFH

Ok so I'm home and just going to check the FPS and CPU usage now, standing in a fairly crowded area.

On Low:

FPS: 30 Fps
CPU Usage: 40%

On Good:

FPS: 24 FPS
CPU Usage: 40%

On Ultra:

FPS: 15 FPS
CPU Usage: 40%

The CPU Usage for them all was the same but it did spike every now and then jumping up to 60 or 70% then back down again, did it maybe more often on Ultra but never stayed high or went over 70%.

Should I take from this that the GPU Upgrade is the way to go?

Serephucus

How are you getting 40%? Is this 40% total? Because that would mean it's maxing out one core, and the other 15% is background processes.

Tea_Bag

and what's the GPU usage for the same tests? you can see them in MSI after burner on the graphs on the right. it'll also say the Max usage it hit, as well as other info.