Do private schools have a place in society?

uberalles

A fellow I know says a relation went to gerrards and all he got was an ockscent.

steddyeddy

bnt wrote: »

Well, the question is "do private schools have a place in society?", and the answer is: no, of course they don't. That's the point of a private school - so that privileged kids and their parents can avoid "society" altogether.

Indeed my lecturer doesnt hire people who went to private schools for this reason (I believe he is wrong before you ask) but he doesn like to further reward privilege as he puts it.

Dudess

You can't ever voice any objections to private schools without being accused of bitterness and jealousy bla bla. Childish much? Members of my immediate family went to private school because it was a good school (due to its reputation though, not because fees = good), I went to a state school because it was a good school.

That's all it should boil down to IMO - fee-paying isn't always automatically good, state isn't always automatically bad.

Rocket19

steddyeddy wrote: »

Indeed my lecturer doesnt hire people who went to private schools for this reason (I believe he is wrong before you ask) but he doesn like to further reward privilege as he puts it.

Wow, that's ridiculously ignorant. Going to a private school doesn't get you good grades (pretty much the most important thing you need, lets face it). Only hard work can do that! I know you don't agree with him btw!

ted1

steddyeddy wrote: »

bnt wrote: »

Well, the question is "do private schools have a place in society?", and the answer is: no, of course they don't. That's the point of a private school - so that privileged kids and their parents can avoid "society" altogether.

Indeed my lecturer doesnt hire people who went to private schools for this reason (I believe he is wrong before you ask) but he doesn like to further reward privilege as he puts it.

Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.

blindside88

steddyeddy wrote: »

IM0 wrote: »

because they pay for it. the point. you missed it.

I take it if I earn more money than you I should also recieve better medication and or treatment in hospital?

Public vs private hospitals? €75 per night compared to €2500 a night. While I went to a public school and had a great time and great education I feel that you really do get what you pay for in this country and if I can afford it my kids will go to a private school

steddyeddy

Rocket19 wrote: »

Wow, that's ridiculously ignorant. Going to a private school doesn't get you good grades (pretty much the most important thing you need, lets face it). Only hard work can do that! I know you don't agree with him btw!

I did tell him that. He himself comes from a rough background to say the least and while he does help people from similar backgrounds I disagree with his discrimination of those from luckier backgrounds.

steddyeddy

ted1 wrote: »

Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.

Well to be honest the mans a genius. Many have benifitted from his research into diseases.

XxMCRxBabyxX

There is a lot of misinformation floating around on here on both sides. Private schools do not automatically get you better grades but they can help, particularly through more encouragement to do better, most kids who go to private schools come from hard working middle class families and often their parents do have to go without sometimes so as to pay for their child's education but that was their decision to make, and most private school students are just as nice and grounded as the rest of us. Why shouldn't parents have the choice if they want their child educated in a certain place in a certain way?

For clarity, I went to a public school but others in my family attended private boarding school so I have seen both sides of the system.

steddyeddy wrote: »

No im not Im implying that a sense of entitlment can be correlated with those from a fortunate background who are privy to better things in life because of their good fortune.

steddyeddy, you clearly have a huge chip on your shoulder about those of "fortunate backgrounds". Perhaps if you looked passed that you might see things a little more rationally.
I know people on both sides of the economic scale and tbh I find that often it's people from a lower earning family who have a bigger sense of entitlement than those whose parents earn good money. Those who have earned their money tend to instill a respect of money into their children and so most "rich kids" have been taught to appreciate their money and to never expect anything from nothing. The same couldn't be said for some of those that I went to school with who have grown up expecting everything to be handed to them as far as the girl who was going to have a "babby" when she finished school so that the government would give her a free house, and that's only one example of many.

steddyeddy

XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »

There is a lot of misinformation floating around on here on both sides. Private schools do not automatically get you better grades but they can help, particularly through more encouragement to do better, most kids who go to private schools come from hard working middle class families and often their parents do have to go without sometimes so as to pay for their child's education but that was their decision to make, and most private school students are just as nice and grounded as the rest of us. Why shouldn't parents have the choice if they want their child educated in a certain place in a certain way?

For clarity, I went to a public school but others in my family attended private boarding school so I have seen both sides of the system.



steddyeddy, you clearly have a huge chip on your shoulder about those of "fortunate backgrounds". Perhaps if you looked passed that you might see things a little more rationally.
I know people on both sides of the economic scale and tbh I find that often it's people from a lower earning family who have a bigger sense of entitlement than those whose parents earn good money. Those who have earned their money tend to instill a respect of money into their children and so most "rich kids" have been taught to appreciate their money and to never expect anything from nothing. The same couldn't be said for some of those that I went to school with who have grown up expecting everything to be handed to them as far as the girl who was going to have a "babby" when she finished school so that the government would give her a free house, and that's only one example of many.

I dont read past insults thanks.

XxMCRxBabyxX

steddyeddy wrote: »

I dont read past insults thanks.

Really?! You consider that to be an insult?!

steddyeddy

XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »

Really?! You consider that to be an insult?!

Huge chip on my shoulder was meant to be a compliment?

the_syco

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

it explains why they are such a monumental dickhead.

And what about the dickheads who didn't goto private school, and have a massive chip on their shoulder about it? :pac:

Chuck Stone

They are not private schools.

They are fee-paying schools that are subsidised by the state.

If they were real private schools then only the really rich would be able to afford them.

bwatson

steddyeddy wrote: »

Sorry to disagree but I think it does.

I went to an independent school and I must say I find your opinion a little offensive. The reason that students of independent schools tend to do better in my opinion is because of the values that are instilled into them by teachers and parents from a young age. Certain levels of respect, responsibility and diligence are not only expected but demanded - very different to many state schools.

Students are far more likely to achieve success because they understand the importance of being disciplined and hard working. Good Examination results are achieved through their own industry and commitment!

HavingCrack

steddyeddy wrote: »

Indeed my lecturer doesnt hire people who went to private schools for this reason (I believe he is wrong before you ask) but he doesn like to further reward privilege as he puts it.

Lecturer? Hiring other lecturers like? This seems bizarre to be honest. I'd never even consider putting what school I went to on a CV unless it was the highest level of education I achieved. Presumably if they're going for jobs as lecturers they have PhD's and Masters Degrees and a Bachelor's Degree and they still put down their school

Chuck Stone wrote: »

They are not private schools.

They are fee-paying schools that are subsidised by the state.

If they were real private schools then only the really rich would be able to afford them.

Have a look at the United States to see what real private schools look like. To be fair, in parts of the US you'd be mental to even consider sending your child to a public school if you can afford not to.

HavingCrack

bwatson wrote: »

I went to an independent school and I must say I find your opinion a little offensive. The reason that students of independent schools tend to do better in my opinion is because of the values are instilled into them by teachers and parents from a young age. Certain levels of respect, responsibility and diligence are not only expected but demanded - very different to many state schools.

Students are far more likely to achieve success because they understand the importance of being disciplined and hard working. Good Examination results are achieved through their own industry and commitment!

To be honest bwatson, the UK system of schools is quite different to that of Ireland. The Irish 'private' schools aren't independant, most people's issue with them would stop if they were. Teacher's in Irish private schools are still paid by the state. As far as I can make out independent schools in the UK are fully self-funding from what I can make out. Comparing them isn't neccessarily a fair comparison.

Secondly I definately agree with some of your point. The closing down of grammar schools in the UK was one of the worst things they ever did. The importance of working hard and respecting yourself and ptther pupil's and teacher's is definately lacking from most comprehensive's in England, a lot of which are pretty awful. Comapred to Northern Ireland where they still have grammar schools and the level of academic achievement is much higher etc.

However I don't think a school per sae is the answer. It's nearly always the family. In my 1st public (state school in UK speak) secondary school in a middle class area you coudl have predicted who was going to university, who was going to the local IT and who wasn't going to 3rd level in 1st Year. The people from upper and middle class areas went to university pretty much en masse (with some notable exceptions), those from the 'lower' middle classes and 'upper' working classes went to the IT and those from the 'working' class estates went straight out to work. We had no one with a dream of living on the dole thankfully.

Independent schools thrive because of the the norms of the social class who go there for the most part. They suceed in spite of rather than because of.

Gyalist

admiralofthefleet wrote: »

like myself, im planning to send my son to an educate together. but the likes of blackrock college recieving money when ordinary people cant send their children there annoys me. gonzaga dont even allow students from the northside of dublin to enrol

Why should they? The policy is that pupils from the northside go to Belvedere and those from the southside to Gonzaga.

cruais

Gyalist wrote: »

Why should they? The policy is that pupils from the northside go to Belvedere and those from the southside to Gonzaga.

Who made that policy?

And for the record, I said already I went to private school. I'm not against it, just wondering about the policy?

Gyalist

cruais wrote: »

Who made that policy?

I don't know, but that what it says on the the Gonzaga application for admission form.

rab!dmonkey

Gyalist wrote: »

I don't know, but that what it says on the the Gonzaga application for admission form.

Not as far as I can see. It does ask for parents to predict the date of birth of any 'future siblings' though.

Gyalist

It was there when I filled in my son's application.

ted1

Chuck Stone wrote: »

They are not private schools.

They are fee-paying schools that are subsidised by the state.

If they were real private schools then only the really rich would be able to afford them.

They get the same money as other students, every student in the state gets the same amount, although poorer schools get extra. So there no more subsidied as public schools. Only the guy who sends his kid to private school is probably paying the taxes to also send a kid to public school.

XxMCRxBabyxX

steddyeddy wrote: »

XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »

Really?! You consider that to be an insult?!

Huge chip on my shoulder was meant to be a compliment?

It was an observation based on your tone of posts in this thread. Nothing more, nothing less

Cian92

iguana wrote: »

The school I plan on using receives no public money as it does not teach the national curriculum and is non-denominational. It's a very basic school, consisting of 3 hired rooms, 4-6 staff and about 30-40 pupils in the whole school. The parents of the students are the board of management and the fees are designed to be just enough to pay the staff, room hire, insurance, utilities, equipment, contingency fund etc.

Didn't you say it's a montessori you were sending your child to?

bwatson

bwatson wrote: »

............The reason that students of independent schools tend to do better in my opinion is because of the values that are instilled into them by teachers and parents from a young age. Certain levels of respect, responsibility and diligence are not only expected but demanded - very different to many state schools. .................

Not so different from many (the majority of) state schools

This is an example of how folks attending these fee schools are lacking somewhat in the life experience category. Being respectful, responsible and diligent is independent of the financial circumstances of your folks.

It seems many educated in fee paying schools can't quite grasp that reality.

The vast majority of our population did not attend fee paying schools.

Meow_Meow

My mom's friend sends her children to Gaelscoileanna so that they don't have to 'sit in a class with blacks and Poles' ....

would highly offend her 5 year old's sensibilities, I'm sure...

iguana

Cian92 wrote: »

Didn't you say it's a montessori you were sending your child to?

Yes. Montessori is not a pre-school system it's a full school system going from 3-17. Though in this country there are only primaries and only one or two that don't compromise on that education for state funding.

(And it's will be, not were. I'm expecting my first baby later this year but we've been financially planning to have funds enough to send 3 kids to the school we have chosen for the last 4-5 years.)

Would you not think the children will be quite sheltered in a Montessori school though?

That's a genuine question not a dig btw.

XxMCRxBabyxX

Meow_Meow wrote: »

My mom's friend sends her children to Gaelscoileanna so that they don't have to 'sit in a class with blacks and Poles' ....

would highly offend her 5 year old's sensibilities, I'm sure...

You couldn't really apply that mindset to private schools though as you tend to find that most private schools have a wider range of international students than public schools

steddyeddy

HavingCrack wrote: »

Lecturer? Hiring other lecturers like? This seems bizarre to be honest. I'd never even consider putting what school I went to on a CV unless it was the highest level of education I achieved. Presumably if they're going for jobs as lecturers they have PhD's and Masters Degrees and a Bachelor's Degree and they still put down their school

Hey sorry for the late reply he was head of a department within a biological school. He had a certain amount of power when it came to appointing other heads of school, asociate professors, lecturers or the rest. He used to ask in the interview for those positions wheter the candidate availed of public school or private school.

Have a look at the United States to see what real private schools look like. To be fair, in parts of the US you'd be mental to even consider sending your child to a public school if you can afford not to.

Spent a good chunk of my life in the states and I have to agree with you regarding the private shcools there.

steddyeddy

bwatson wrote: »

I went to an independent school and I must say I find your opinion a little offensive. The reason that students of independent schools tend to do better in my opinion is because of the values that are instilled into them by teachers and parents from a young age. Certain levels of respect, responsibility and diligence are not only expected but demanded - very different to many state schools.

No offense meant bwatson. The question wasnt why do private schoolers do better but is a system where those who are on the poverty line cant avail of teachers who instill confidence a fair one. Private schoolers generally only do better up to secondary school in my opinion by the way. Another thing Ill take you up on is that parents of public schoolers want the best for their children just like all parents. Its not just parents who are lucky enough to be able to afford private school.

Students are far more likely to achieve success because they understand the importance of being disciplined and hard working. Good Examination results are achieved through their own industry and commitment!

Again no different to public school.

steddyeddy

Gyalist wrote: »

Why should they? The policy is that pupils from the northside go to Belvedere and those from the southside to Gonzaga.

Based on that morality my lecturer who doesnt hire those who went to private shcool is perfectly entitled to do so because it is his policy. Why is one form of discrimination better than another?

steddyeddy

XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »

It was an observation based on your tone of posts in this thread. Nothing more, nothing less

Well thanks for the observation. A good idea in the future would be to leave out the observations on ones character if you expect me to debate. Put your points to me again if you like and Ill be happy to deal with them.

rgmmg

I went to both a public and private school. The facilities may have been better in the latter, but the standard of education was similar in each. If I had kids I wouldn't hesitate to send them to a public school. Still, I guess the "What school did you go to?" filter has always been a favourite in Irish social circles!

steddyeddy

rgmmg wrote: »

I went to both a public and private school. The facilities may have been better in the latter, but the standard of education was similar in each. If I had kids I wouldn't hesitate to send them to a public school. Still, I guess the "What school did you go to?" filter has always been a favourite in Irish social cirlces!

Thats another issue I have with it. Ireland has massive problems with cronyisim and percieved elitisim. America where I spent a good chunk of life sees the elite as those who worked their way up from nothing. Not those who are rewarded for luck.

Novella

Eathrin wrote: »

As somebody who goes to a public school, I could not be more delighted that I don't have to suffer listening to spoilt teens that feel they can stroll through life on Daddy's money.
Let them have their private schools, and let them believe that they are getting a better education.

Seriously?

I went to a private school and if you believe for a second that I feel I can 'stroll through life on Daddy's money' then you are deluded. That is such a sweeping generalisation, it's actually ridiculous.

I don't believe I got a better education. I believe I went to a school that was highly Leaving Cert and points orientated, with no time for P.E., religion, extra-curricular activities etc. I don't think that's better, it just suited me. I wanted to focus solely on exams, had no interest in sports. That's all.

I have complete respect for public school education. My brother went to a public school and did just as well as I did, in fact some might say better, as I went on to drop out of college and he didn't. However, he loved sports - captained both the schools hurling and football teams and for that reason, he would've hated the school I went to.

It has nothing to do with thinking private education is better for me, just sometimes different schools offer things that suit some more than others.

Gyalist

steddyeddy wrote: »

Based on that morality my lecturer who doesnt hire those who went to private shcool is perfectly entitled to do so because it is his policy. Why is one form of discrimination better than another?

Where does morality or discrimination come into it? Schools often have catchment areas. In this case northside parents who want a Jesuit education for their children apply to Belvedere and southside parents to Gonzaga. If they want a boarding school experience parents from all over the country can apply to Clongowes.

steddyeddy

Gyalist wrote: »

Where does morality or discrimination come into it? Schools often have catchment areas. In this case northside parents who want a Jesuit education for their children apply to Belvedere and southside parents to Gonzaga. If they want a boarding school experience parents from all over the country can apply to Clongowes.

So these schools welcome all children from all areas of their catchment areas?

iguana

RoverJames wrote: »

Would you not think the children will be quite sheltered in a Montessori school though?

That's a genuine question not a dig btw.

Sheltered from what?

steddyeddy

Novella wrote: »

Seriously?

I went to a private school and if you believe for a second that I feel I can 'stroll through life on Daddy's money' then you are deluded. That is such a sweeping generalisation, it's actually ridiculous.

I don't believe I got a better education. I believe I went to a school that was highly Leaving Cert and points orientated, with no time for P.E., religion, extra-curricular activities etc. I don't think that's better, it just suited me. I wanted to focus solely on exams, had no interest in sports. That's all.

I have complete respect for public school education. My brother went to a public school and did just as well as I did, in fact some might say better, as I went on to drop out of college and he didn't. However, he loved sports - captained both the schools hurling and football teams and for that reason, he would've hated the school I went to.

It has nothing to do with thinking private education is better for me, just sometimes different schools offer things that suit some more than others.

Again as I said before I dont think all people who went to private school live in daddys pocket or even have wealthy parents. I just point out that some do when a poster makes the connection between public schools and the dole office.

foxyboxer

I'd make the case that Private schools are a status symbol.
The keeping up with the Joneses mentality is applicable to all social levels.
Private and Public schools must teach the same cirriculum. They might do so in a nicer environment with better facilities but the cirriculum is still the cirriculum.

So I would argue that sending the kids to an expensive Private School is not so much a decision based entirely on whether it is in their best interests but I would suggest that the decision is somewhat based on social peer pressure also.

iguana

iguana wrote: »

Sheltered from what?

They'll only be rubbing shoulders with well heeled kids. They won't be mixing with kids from differing backgrounds, it will be kids from well off backgrounds.

When I was in primary school it was a real mix, there was very well to do kids, middle class and working class kids and kids from fairly poor backgrounds. It was a total cross section, we all got on great with each other.

There are numerous posters on here who seem to think public schools are a poor alternative to a fee paying school, I would think quite a few of them were sheltered as kids too.

Gyalist

steddyeddy wrote: »

So these schools welcome all children from all areas of their catchment areas?

Belvedere College SDP.

foxyboxer

If two people were to fly from Dublin to New York and one in economy and the other in premium/first class, One will have done so in comfort but will have paid more for the experience, the other will have done so with a bit less comfort but saved a lot more.

Point is, they both made it to New York. :pac:

steddyeddy

Gyalist wrote: »

Belvedere College SDP.

Ah right so they dont take kids who are unlucky enough to come from a background of poverty? So they do discriminate. Gonzago in particular in discrimanotry. To support it is to support discrimination.

iguana

RoverJames wrote: »

They'll only be rubbing shoulders with well heeled kids. They won't be mixing with kids from differing backgrounds, it will be kids from well off backgrounds.

The school I'm hoping for is in Donaghmede and the rooms they hire and share a yard with is a local national school. And no it's not all kids from well off backgrounds. These schools are attended by parents who do not want their children learning to chase grades and a 'good job where they can earn loads of money.' I never want my kids in such a school. I want them to learn to be happy and to learn for the love of a subject. I want them to grow up to do whatever makes them happy whether that's a scientist who cures cancer or a street performer. I want them to feel free to explore who they are and who they want to be every single day of their childhood. I never want them to come to hate a subject they once loved because of the restrictive way it is taught in schools.

Getting good grades is no indication of the understanding of a subject. It's no indication of a fully formed ability to reason and work out problems. I don't want my kids going to a school where grades matter, and there aren't really any state funded schools, public or private, where that type of education is available.

HavingCrack

steddyeddy wrote: »

Hey sorry for the late reply he was head of a department within a biological school. He had a certain amount of power when it came to appointing other heads of school, asociate professors, lecturers or the rest. He used to ask in the interview for those positions wheter the candidate availed of public school or private school.

Wow, just wow. If was going for a job as a head school in a university and someone asked me what 'secondary school' I attended alarm bells would start ringing straight away. Surely an acceptable answer would be that what school you attended is utterly irrelevant to the position, particuarly when you've progressed through three levels of education after that.

That professor seems slightly hypocritical as well considering the cost of 3rd level education in the US, surely everyone has to pay for their college education there, including himself.

steddyeddy wrote: »

Spent a good chunk of my life in the states and I have to agree with you regarding the private shcools there.

Yeah I used to live in New Jersey for a little while and all the locals wouldn't even have considered sending their children to public schools, it's not like Ireland at all. The gap between private and public is much, much bigger there.

Sierra Oscar

steddyeddy wrote: »

So these schools welcome all children from all areas of their catchment areas?

Pretty much, yes. Nearly all private schools have implemented scholarship schemes at this stage which take all children into account irrespective of background.

iguana

iguana wrote: »

The school I'm hoping for is in Donaghmede and the rooms they hire and share a yard with is a local national school. And no it's not all kids from well off backgrounds. ...........

That sounds nice in fairness
How much is it?