Do private schools have a place in society?

golden lane

private schools........meaning not state schools........the private individual can, and should be able to spend their money on their own children.....

as the state has an input, in that it is the law to educate children to a certain standard..................of course the state should pay for that part......and the parents should be free to pay extra as they deem fit.....

Milk & Honey

secretambition wrote: »

Did they teach it at yours? Did you learn that a modern communications infrastructure includes things called buses, which people at my school were content to spend anything up to an hour each way on to reach it. Most kids don't go to school on bikes anymore.

An how does a child in Glasson village get to Wilsons Hospital on a bus? Or any child in Athlone or Moate. Not every part of the country is like South Dublin with buses on every corner and suburban rail systems.Do you seriously expect children to walk several miles to a bus stop, spend an hour on a bus, walk several more miles to school all the while carrying heavy bags and then do the same in reverse that evening?

secretambition

Milk & Honey wrote: »

An how does a child in Glasson village get to Wilsons Hospital on a bus? Or any child in Athlone or Moate. Not every part of the country is like South Dublin with buses on every corner and suburban rail systems.Do you seriously expect children to walk several miles to a bus stop, spend an hour on a bus, walk several more miles to school all the while carrying heavy bags and then do the same in reverse that evening?

Whats your obsession with Dublin? I was talking about a school in one of the most rural counties in Ireland that people spent an hour on a bus to get to. Also whats the obsession with Wilsons Hospital? Are there no private schools within an hour of Athlone or Moate (BY BUS)? And no, I don't expect anyone to spend an hour on a bus. It was a choice, but it is proof that it is possible.

Also whats with all the walking? Most rural. private schools arrange buses that serve the surrounding hinterland at a considerable radius and the local towns and villages. There's unlikely to be any walking at the school end. If you don't live anywhere near the bus stop at your end, drop them to the bus, just like you're likely to have to do anyway if you live in a remote area outside a town. Stop trying to make a longish commute into an Arctic expedition. It's only a longish commute, no more. Most kids at my school never cared and had a great laugh on the bus. Oh, and if you've got a few hours supervised study after school, your bag won't be too heavy.

quietsailor

steddyeddy wrote: »

College attendence should be one hundred per cent based on intelligence and hard work not what school you attend.

Don't drop dead from the shock of me agreeing with you :eek: butttt - I completely agree. My original college course - Marine Engineering in the CIT - was an interview course. No matter what points you achieved if you were deemed to be unsuitable you didn't get into the course. All college courses should be like this. It would also take the pressure off children from pushy parents who think "You must study medicine/dentristy/law etc etc" because it looks good to the neighbours.

That has to stop, people who would be brilliant Veterinarians are being lost because other students with better marks but no aptitude are getting the places

secretambition

quietsailor wrote: »

Don't drop dead from the shock of me agreeing with you :eek: butttt - I completely agree. My original college course - Marine Engineering in the CIT - was an interview course. No matter what points you achieved if you were deemed to be unsuitable you didn't get into the course. All college courses should be like this. It would also take the pressure off children from pushy parents who think "You must study medicine/dentristy/law etc etc" because it looks good to the neighbours.

That has to stop, people who would be brilliant Veterinarians are being lost because other students with better marks but no aptitude are getting the places

I'd hate to see us go down the UK route of interview because Ireland is too small for it. I think there is too much potential to know someone. Of course I'm not saying that it would always come down to who you know. I'm sure the majority of admissions people are of great integrity.

I also think it's a bit of a myth that the person who gets the points for veterinary is likely to have done it to look good and will have no aptitude for it. In my experience a person who is bright enough to get that will have sufficient aptitute to do just about anything they want, bar a few rare exceptions. I don't know why people rank having passion above dilligence. As long as you've got sufficient competence, it doesn't really matter why you got it - whether you're a really great vet because you've loved animals since you were 5, or whether you had no idea what you wanted to do until June of 6th year, but are dilligent and conscientious enough to get almost 600 points. The latter type of person is likely to take any job that they have very seriously and give it their all. Many of the most intelligent kids have no clear direction in what they want to do because they've always been able to do every subject if they put the effort in and nothing stood out. People who want people with the most passion to get the places would not find any place on any college course for many of the brightest students because they'd fail the enthusiasm test for everything.

Chucky the tree

steddyeddy wrote: »

The other problem I have with the current progression towards a two tier system being government funded is that less than ten percent of people avail of something that everyones tax pays for. Everyone in the country pays tax towards state funding of private schools and only a very small percentage can avail of it.

Everyon in the country pays tax towards education children, and everyone has will be given education. However some parents decided the portion of tax es they pay isn't enough so top it up with more of their own money. You are basically suggesting that parents pay for other peoples education, and then pay the full cost for their own children on top of it. Unless you agree they should be given a tax discount if they decide to keep their child in private school.

steddyeddy wrote: »

If 2% of the six per cent of private school goers leave it will be a big problem? that is 0.0012 of the general population? Or if you meant 2% of the general population leave private shcool it will be a big problem I dont find it credible that 6% of the population wont and cant afford private school.

Problem is you can't send a kick in South Dublin to school in Meath. Since a large number of private schools are located in a small area having a sudden big increase in demand for public schools in that same area will cause a big problem.

steddyeddy wrote: »

Do I think or believe that a situation where those who go to private school are more likely to go to college is going to affect the mindset of those who cant afford to go to college? Yes I do. The fact is some people in this country quite wrongly see college education as the right of the what they view as "elite" where as to my mind its the only people who have a right to college are the intelligent and hard working.

I think this view happens, if it does I think it's the persons own fault for being that dumb.

quietsailor wrote: »

Don't drop dead from the shock of me agreeing with you :eek: butttt - I completely agree. My original college course - Marine Engineering in the CIT - was an interview course. No matter what points you achieved if you were deemed to be unsuitable you didn't get into the course. All college courses should be like this. It would also take the pressure off children from pushy parents who think "You must study medicine/dentristy/law etc etc" because it looks good to the neighbours.

That has to stop, people who would be brilliant Veterinarians are being lost because other students with better marks but no aptitude are getting the places

That pressure will never be taken off. Even if it was an interview demand or the prestige of those course will still be just as high, they are seen that way because of their percieved importance and the money you can make.

secretambition

Actually if it were interview-led, the first thing you would see would be children of parents in the "professions" getting all kinds of great work experience and being coached on the current issues in the industry to give a knock-out interview performance that a kid from a different background never could. Even if the parent wasn't in the same profession, the fact that social circles mirror socio-economic circles means they're far more likely to know someone who can help.

Milk & Honey

secretambition wrote: »

Whats your obsession with Dublin? I was talking about a school in one of the most rural counties in Ireland that people spent an hour on a bus to get to. Also whats the obsession with Wilsons Hospital? Are there no private schools within an hour of Athlone or Moate (BY BUS)? And no, I don't expect anyone to spend an hour on a bus. It was a choice, but it is proof that it is possible.

Also whats with all the walking? Most rural. private schools arrange buses that serve the surrounding hinterland at a considerable radius and the local towns and villages. There's unlikely to be any walking at the school end. If you don't live anywhere near the bus stop at your end, drop them to the bus, just like you're likely to have to do anyway if you live in a remote area outside a town. Stop trying to make a longish commute into an Arctic expedition. It's only a longish commute, no more. Most kids at my school never cared and had a great laugh on the bus. Oh, and if you've got a few hours supervised study after school, your bag won't be too heavy.

Wilson's hospital was cited as an example by another poster. The reality is that it is not feasible to attend a private day school in may parts of the country. I challenged the poster to explain how someone living 30 miles away would get to it. He hasn't explained. Neither have you. It is not feasible for parents in rural areas to get involved in dropping children off at bus collection points either. Many have incompatible work schedules. The fact that some children spend an hour on a bus travelling to a private school shows how inaccessible private education is for people outside South Dublin where the private schools are on every corner.

quietsailor

Chucky the tree wrote: »

That pressure will never be taken off. Even if it was an interview demand or the prestige of those course will still be just as high, they are seen that way because of their percieved importance and the money you can make.

The funny thing is most of my classmates who stuck out that job are earning circa €100K today (usually after tax as well)** so your talking consultant status or one bloody hard working vet or GP to equal them - yet my classmates are usually working on rigs or deep sea ships where they are 28 days on/off or 3 months on/off - ie they even have more time off than the Vets/Gps/Consultants

**people who work out of the country for more than 6 months are considered to be "non-resident for tax purposes" so they don't pay the 21% or 42% income taxes. I'm not sure if the pay PRSI, Social levy, Pension levy etc but it'll still be a lot less than an equilavent Irish PAYE worker

Maybe if pay scales and average hours worked per week were par of the the course info you'd see a change in those attitudes, probably not though, parents still want the perceived reflected social status

quietsailor

secretambition wrote: »

Actually if it were interview-led, the first thing you would see would be children of parents in the "professions" getting all kinds of great work experience and being coached on the current issues in the industry to give a knock-out interview performance that a kid from a different background never could. Even if the parent wasn't in the same profession, the fact that social circles mirror socio-economic circles means they're far more likely to know someone who can help.

Hmmm, never thought of it that way. I'd say for the usual professions your right, Marine Engineers are such a small group that wouldn't happen with us but that won't apply to every profession - accountancy, now there is one where you'd be bang on, there is an accountant in every small town and village these days.



getting all kinds of great work experience and being coached on the current issues in the industry to give a knock-out interview performance that a kid from a different background never could.
The first part of that sentence would be a great thing - If the pupil sees what the life is like they can make a better choice of what they want to do in their life. Which, funnily enough, brings us back to the original topic about private schools - I'd reckon as the parents are more concerned about their children in those schools the children would have a better choice of work experience (maybe during transition year?) and thus a better chance of finding a career they like.
I'd consider that another plus for a private school - if they were organising work experience during transition year. It's be another reason I'd send my hypothetical children to a private school

The second part is unfair I will admit, however if the parents of pupils in the lower socio-economic school areas care enough about their children they can band together and do the same - set up a work experience programme to let their children experience different jobs. - the thing is will they care?

steddyeddy

quietsailor wrote: »

Don't drop dead from the shock of me agreeing with you :eek: butttt - I completely agree. My original college course - Marine Engineering in the CIT - was an interview course. No matter what points you achieved if you were deemed to be unsuitable you didn't get into the course. All college courses should be like this. It would also take the pressure off children from pushy parents who think "You must study medicine/dentristy/law etc etc" because it looks good to the neighbours.

That has to stop, people who would be brilliant Veterinarians are being lost because other students with better marks but no aptitude are getting the places

Well my point doesnt have to have to pertain to private schools at all so dont worry about agreeing with me on this .

An interview system sounds really good. A lot of people in science have over 500 points but that doesnt mean they are natural scientists. Some arent suited to it at all. Nothing in school (even science) can prepare you for college science. It requires a curiosity about the topic rather than learning off facts.

steddyeddy

secretambition wrote: »

I'd hate to see us go down the UK route of interview because Ireland is too small for it. I think there is too much potential to know someone. Of course I'm not saying that it would always come down to who you know. I'm sure the majority of admissions people are of great integrity.

Well I can only speak about my area of interest but one of the reasons I love science is that knowing someone doesnt help as much as it does in other industries. For isntance If my mate applied for a job in research in pfizer or something and I was in charge of employing people, I couldnt give him a job based on my knowing him even if he had the right qualifications. Any serious mistake could cost the company millions or even billions (thalidomide being a nasty example).

[/QUOTE]I also think it's a bit of a myth that the person who gets the points for veterinary is likely to have done it to look good and will have no aptitude for it. In my experience a person who is bright enough to get that will have sufficient aptitute to do just about anything they want, bar a few rare exceptions. I don't know why people rank having passion above dilligence. As long as you've got sufficient competence, it doesn't really matter why you got it - whether you're a really great vet because you've loved animals since you were 5, or whether you had no idea what you wanted to do until June of 6th year, but are dilligent and conscientious enough to get almost 600 points. The latter type of person is likely to take any job that they have very seriously and give it their all. Many of the most intelligent kids have no clear direction in what they want to do because they've always been able to do every subject if they put the effort in and nothing stood out. People who want people with the most passion to get the places would not find any place on any college course for many of the brightest students because they'd fail the enthusiasm test for everything.[/QUOTE]

Well again I can only comment on my field but people do apply for science for the prestige. Then again they dont usually last past first year!

Milk & Honey

secretambition wrote: »

I
I also think it's a bit of a myth that the person who gets the points for veterinary is likely to have done it to look good and will have no aptitude for it. In my experience a person who is bright enough to get that will have sufficient aptitute to do just about anything they want, bar a few rare exceptions.

I had an uncle who lectured in the veterinary college. He frequently had students who had got the points but got into trouble about the fourth year of the course when the techniques which got them the points failed to work in college. Rote learning, question spotting, practising answers etc. might do the trick at LC level but are no use when confronted by a searching academic test.
There are many individuals in courses because they are prestige courses. In some families the question is "are you going to do medicine or law?" No other occupation enters the reckoning.

Roadtrippin

Short answer: No :P Private schools are overrated!

Parents that send their child(ren) to private schools spent too much money on education that could have been acquired at public schools without problems - only then for their children to still end up watching TOWIE or possibly end up on Made in Chelsea themselves with stupid hair and stupid accents :P

*rant over*

steddyeddy

SChique00 wrote: »

I feel it's more accurate to judge to base literacy and numeracy abilities on areas of the country, rather than individual schools. Certainly, a sizeable proportion of the students in my school have learning difficulties, particularly on the autistic spectrum, and parents send their children there because they feel that the environment will be safer, more tolerant of, and better equipped to deal with their child's disability.

As for general reasons, well I can only speak from my own experience, but I was bullied in primary school and I fell in love with the school when I first visited it. There was a real sense of community which was present in both the staff and students, and the staff to the student ratio is lower than in most public schools (there are at most, 26 people in any one class, and in my own form group there are only 20 students). However, the main reason I went to my school is because my parents felt much more at ease about my wellbeing from looking at the school's policy on bullying and student safety - we're not allowed downtown for lunch, unlike the rest of the schools in town, for example. There was also the option for me to take music and drama lessons during school (at additional cost), but I didn't avail of either of these opportunities as they cut into class time.
However, in terms of the content, education or even facilities, there is very little difference. In Transition Year, for example, there are sailing and horseriding programmes, but these are all at extra cost to the parents, and fitness is mandatory, so transport expenses are automatically added to the bill each term. My school is currently building a new multipurpose hall, but this is a project that has been in the pipeline for over a decade, as the school had to collect the funds from yearly fees.

Sorry to hear you were bullied and Im glad your in a school you like. Thanks for detailing your experience as well. I dont hold the view that all private schools are elite! I know some are basically public school with a smaller class size.

FoxT

steddyeddy wrote: »

I dont think they do. Im not talking about the cost to the system, I think they promote elitisim, cronyisim and a false sense of entitlement in this society. It gives an unfair advantage to people who usually already are lucky enough to not be born into poverty. I dont get why one persons education should be more important than anothers.

I have no problem with private schools. I have a big problem with the way they are subsidised by the state. This simply should not happen. IMO subsidies to private schools should be zero'd by the govt asap.

The 'Private schools' that I have seen offer absolutely nothing extra academically. They run to the same LC curriculum, class sizes are the same, subject choices are the same. Mrs FoxT & I looked closely at this when our children were due to start secondary school, & we ruled it out.

As for boarding school, well, I love the company of our children, and would miss them if they were away. I also think that Mrs FoxT & myself can offer them a better home experience than any boarding school can. So scratch that one too, for me. I'd consider it if for career reasons we had to do a lot of travel, but that is happily not the case.

secretambition

Milk & Honey wrote: »

Wilson's hospital was cited as an example by another poster. The reality is that it is not feasible to attend a private day school in may parts of the country. I challenged the poster to explain how someone living 30 miles away would get to it. He hasn't explained. Neither have you. It is not feasible for parents in rural areas to get involved in dropping children off at bus collection points either. Many have incompatible work schedules. The fact that some children spend an hour on a bus travelling to a private school shows how inaccessible private education is for people outside South Dublin where the private schools are on every corner.

I didn't answer that because it's missing the point to say that one particular school seems inaccessible. I challenged you to tell me that there are no private schools that are commutable, not just that your favourite one isn't.

Children in rural areas nearly always need to be dropped off. There isn't a public school within walking distance of every child either. If you decide to live in certain places, you are aware of the infrastructure beforehand.

Milk & Honey

secretambition wrote: »

I didn't answer that because it's missing the point to say that one particular school seems inaccessible. I challenged you to tell me that there are no private schools that are commutable, not just that your favourite one isn't.

Children in rural areas nearly always need to be dropped off. There isn't a public school within walking distance of every child either. If you decide to live in certain places, you are aware of the infrastructure beforehand.

I never said that school was a favourite. It was held up as an example by another poster. Athlone town is not a rural area. There are many public schools within walking distance of all of the inhabitants.