Water meter charge

mike65

Bards wrote: »

Can the Govt make someone install a meter onto private property?

If I have to pay for water, than I want clean water without any chemicals added (Fluride for example)

Will there be an alternative to Irish Water?

Just like we can get Gas from the ESB or Electricity from Bord Gais etc?

How come the contract wasn't put out to tender. Surely this is anti-competitive and against EU rules.

How would a competitive market be achieved in water? Its hardly a practical proposition at a house by house level. Here is the current UK situation

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/nov/19/utilities-regulators

Bards

wellboytoo wrote: »

I hear a lot of people on radio saying "that water is a basic human right" where are they getting this from as an argument?

IIRC it is in a UN Charter that Ireland signed up to

edit

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=35456&Cr=SANITATION

Cabaal

mike65 wrote: »

Well if Rates hadn't been so cynically abolished by Fianna Fail in 1977 we'd have a far healthier tax base.

Interestingly thats the thoughts on this site

http://www.workingnotes.ie/index.php/item/wn66-tax (found it via google)

Had rates not been removed they would have applied a cooling affect on the boom years....apparently.

Of course on the otherside of things you could suggest that rates + boom years would have meant we would have gotten into even more debt as we would have gotten used to having much more money then just the boom and overspend even more.

We'll never really know what could have happened, we just know now that we are spending more then we are taking in as a country and something has to change.

wellboytoo

Bards wrote: »

IIRC it is in a UN Charter that Ireland signed up to

edit

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=35456&Cr=SANITATION

Yes but if you read it you would note it says "affordable" not free!

wellboytoo

Cabaal wrote: »

Interestingly thats the thoughts on this site

http://www.workingnotes.ie/index.php/item/wn66-tax (found it via google)

Had rates not been removed they would have applied a cooling affect on the boom years....apparently.

Of course on the otherside of things you could suggest that rates + boom years would have meant we would have gotten into even more debt as we would have gotten used to having much more money then just the boom and overspend even more.

We'll never really know what could have happened, we just know now that we are spending more then we are taking in as a country and something has to change.

The one thing is darn sure, if rates were still in force we would not see as many 6000 to 8000 square foot houses as we do at the moment.
I was talking to a guy the other day who was on the way to Roscommon to try and help a guy who is spending €1000 a month on kerosene to heat his 8000 sq ft house and swimming pool...ffs

Bards

Lets see.

We currently Pay PRSI, Income Tax, Universal Social Charge, Household Charge.

Not to mention - TV License, Road TAX, VAT, Insurance Levies, Excise Duty etc etc.

Why the hell do we have to pay any more charges. If the Govt./Civil Service can't run the country for the money which they take in. then the lot of them should be fired and replaced with someone who can.

How long before we start handing over our entire pay packets to the Govt?

wellboytoo

Bards wrote: »

Lets see.

We currently Pay PRSI, Income Tax, Universal Social Charge, Household Charge.

Not to mention - TV License, Road TAX, VAT, Insurance Levies, Excise Duty etc etc.

Why the hell do we have to pay any more charges. If the Govt./Civil Service can't run the country for the money which they take in. then the lot of them should be fired and replaced with someone who can.

How long before we start handing over our entire pay packets to the Govt?

Two different arguments there, I agree totaly that there are huge savings to be made in the public service, but first the civil service and the unions have to be tackled, this is not being done by the present Government.
The water charge as you call it is not a tax, it is a charge for water consumed as I read it, so don't use it don't pay it, or use less pay less, it is the only way to go.

Sully

Its very hard to challenge the unions, as your going to have an all out strike which will cause mass disruption. Its not just the unions but those under them also.

mike65

Bards wrote: »

Lets see.

We currently Pay PRSI, Income Tax, Universal Social Charge, Household Charge.

Not to mention - TV License, Road TAX, VAT, Insurance Levies, Excise Duty etc etc.

Why the hell do we have to pay any more charges. If the Govt./Civil Service can't run the country for the money which they take in. then the lot of them should be fired and replaced with someone who can.

How long before we start handing over our entire pay packets to the Govt?

TV licence for RTE not the government for a start.

2012 - expenditure €51.7bn revenue of €35bn, that's a €15bn gap

All those school teachers, nurses, council employees, civil sevants, child allowances, health cards, dole payments, hospitals, schools, etc need paying for.

wellboytoo

Sully wrote: »

Its very hard to challenge the unions, as your going to have an all out strike which will cause mass disruption. Its not just the unions but those under them also.

Agreed it is a blanket statement, but the work practices (sic) etc the ways of changing them, the constant need for commitees to convene to change the methodolgy of changing the toilet paper, is what I am addressing.
It needs a Ray Mc Sharry for two years of hard and decisive managment to tidy it up, and no political party has the cojones for that. The current crowd have a massive majority and should have hit the ground running , done all the hard stuff in the first two years and spent the next three currying favour with an eye on the election.
But that was never going to happen with a Labour element to the Gov.

Bards

mike65 wrote: »

TV licence for RTE not the government for a start.

2012 - expenditure €51.7bn revenue of €35bn, that's a €15bn gap

All those school teachers, nurses, council employees, civil sevants, child allowances, health cards, dole payments, hospitals, schools, etc need paying for.

and 4 years ago it was an €18Bn gap

so after 4 years of austerity, tax raising and cuts and probably taking about €10bn out of the economy, the gap only closed by €3Bn

total mismanagement of the economy and proof that you can not tax your way out of a recession.

all that these new taxes/charges is going to do is take away from peoples spending power and further dampen demand and lead to job losses and strains on the exchequer which will lead to more austerity etc.

wellboytoo

Bards wrote: »

and 4 years ago it was an €18Bn gap

so after 4 years of austerity, tax raising and cuts and probably taking about €10bn out of the economy, the gap only closed by €3Bn

total mismanagement of the economy and proof that you can not tax your way out of a recession.

all that these new taxes/charges is going to do is take away from peoples spending power and further dampen demand and lead to job losses and strains on the exchequer which will lead to more austerity etc.

And your solution is?

tiny timy

Bards wrote: »

Can the Govt make someone install a meter onto private property?

If I have to pay for water, than I want clean water without any chemicals added (Fluride for example)

Will there be an alternative to Irish Water?

Just like we can get Gas from the ESB or Electricity from Bord Gais etc?

How come the contract wasn't put out to tender. Surely this is anti-competitive and against EU rules.

Referendum Next Month - I'll be voting NO

It was out to tender

rasper

wellboytoo wrote: »

Bards wrote: »

and 4 years ago it was an €18Bn gap

so after 4 years of austerity, tax raising and cuts and probably taking about €10bn out of the economy, the gap only closed by €3Bn

total mismanagement of the economy and proof that you can not tax your way out of a recession.

all that these new taxes/charges is going to do is take away from peoples spending power and further dampen demand and lead to job losses and strains on the exchequer which will lead to more austerity etc.

And your solution is?

Have it out for once and for all with the unions , start talking tough with the ecb
And slash the welfare bill including child benefit, pensions and all the untouchables

We going to have to do it anyway

blowtorch

Wednesday April 18 2012

ENVIRONMENT Minister Phil Hogan was forced to admit last night that there has been a delay in setting up the registration system for the 440,000 owners of septic tanks.
(From today's Indo)

.... And the button pushers don't know when the system will be up-and-running..Yet another kick in the goolies for Phantastic Philly.

Time to move on Hogan.

sunnysoutheast

Bards wrote: »

Can the Govt make someone install a meter onto private property?

If I have to pay for water, than I want clean water without any chemicals added (Fluride for example)

Will there be an alternative to Irish Water?

Just like we can get Gas from the ESB or Electricity from Bord Gais etc?

How come the contract wasn't put out to tender. Surely this is anti-competitive and against EU rules.

Referendum Next Month - I'll be voting NO

Best practice is that the meters will be installed in boundary boxes which will be as close as possible to the individual property boundary. The boxes may well be installed before the meters as excavation will be required and it makes sense to do this work in bulk - the meter can be a screw-in job later. I'd expect that the property owner will be responsible for any repairs downstream of the meter and it will clearly be in their financial interest to fix any leakage.

It is also likely that the individual elements of the work will be tendered for separately, the sub-division of BG will be a contracting entity and of course metering is only a small element of the transition away from LAs to a new company covering supply and waste, which looks like a not-for-profit company - at least initially.

In the UK domestic competition has effectively been ruled out for the foreseeable future, as this would require a separation of the network and supplier businesses. To provide some context Irish Water is likely to have fewer billed customers than Thames Water (>3.2m).

The regulator for Irish Water could do a lot worse than study in detail how the UK regulator - OfWAt - works. In summary, water companies have to justify their spending plans every five years and this governs the charges they can levy.

SSE

Hoffmans

so we are now not only wanted to pay for a meter but also for an installation 800€ stand charge 40€ x 20 yrs.
edna kenny ( as hes known in the states) refered to water as a commodity on the news last night , so it wont be long before this bord gais water yolk subsidary is privatised and we get robbed even further......

Potential-Monke

Could we not install our own meters, and buy the ones like above for $60? (Not that i'm paying anyway!)

danjo-xx

Potential-Monke wrote: »

Could we not install our own meters, and buy the ones like above for $60? (Not that i'm paying anyway!)

nope because An Bord Gais have to own the meters to service them or something like that.:(

Merch

how in the hell can you pay for the meter and for it to not be yours?
If You pay for it, so its yours, then how can they justify charging a rental also??

Either its paid for and there is no rental
or
You dont pay and there is rental,

Either way how are they planning on connecting it into the existing shut off valve that is commonly at the end of drives? without bringing the piping up to a level where it will be subject to freezing?

Personally, Im not against paying for water,as I think it costs money to treat and deliver, I still think it would represent better value than buying it off a shop shelf. I never really stated I would be happy to pay such a service till now, as I knew they would make a total fcuk of the implementation, which is what they seem to be doing now.

I do think they should be encouraging people to tap existing sources, ie their roofs for flushing toilets, gardening and anything else.

Apart from the wastage in the system, some people are complete fckin idiots about wasting the stuff, its bad enough we flush our toilets with drinking water, but some idiots near me insist on doing their drive ups and multiple vehicles with power washes every week, not to mention tapping into the mains.

And how in the fcuk are they costing so much, as people have mentioned already, they obviously dont have a clue if you buy in bulk the price goes down per unit and for the overall installation, its a fckin joke.

Sully

Potential-Monke wrote: »

Could we not install our own meters, and buy the ones like above for $60? (Not that i'm paying anyway!)

No, one product for all to ensure fairness to everyone and so the system cant be cheated in anyway. Plus I assume the meters they are looking at must provide certain data and cheaper products don't or are unreliable etc.

Merch

Sully wrote: »

No, one product for all to ensure fairness to everyone and so the system cant be cheated in anyway. Plus I assume the meters they are looking at must provide certain data and cheaper products don't or are unreliable etc.

Surely no matter what product they are buying, if it is required in such quantity, then manufacturers will be falling over themselves to provide such a quantity at a good price?

As for maintenance on the meter (if thats what we are expected to pay for) well what maintenance was ever required on a meter that I have so far? none, and thats quite a while, nor has any ever been carried out on meters that I know are in use by others for a significantly longer time.

sunnysoutheast

There will be a standing charge for water service provision and consumption charges above a limit to be defined, not a charge for a meter.

The charges will be regulated.

As yet, no-one knows what the charges will be.

The meter will be installed outside the property boundary and the utility will maintain it.

The standing charge also includes the cost of the infrastructure required to deliver the water to you in the first place (plus, possibly, waste water). The consumption charges will reflect the incremental cost of sourcing, treating and pumping the clean water.

Not sure why this is so difficult for people to understand.

No, I'm not involved but I have read the proposals.

SSE

Merch

sunnysoutheast wrote: »

There will be a standing charge for water service provision and consumption charges above a limit to be defined, not a charge for a meter.

The charges will be regulated.

As yet, no-one knows what the charges will be.

The meter will be installed outside the property boundary and the utility will maintain it.

The standing charge also includes the cost of the infrastructure required to deliver the water to you in the first place (plus, possibly, waste water). The consumption charges will reflect the incremental cost of sourcing, treating and pumping the clean water.

Not sure why this is so difficult for people to understand.

No, I'm not involved but I have read the proposals.

SSE

Thats fair enough, and any right minded person can see that we will be paying for what we are getting.
personally I'd prefer that the individual cost of different things that are required to be payed for are done so individually instead of going into a big tax pot.
Meters could if sensibly used, help determine and then eliminate leaks/wastage.
As the powers that be have made a fcuk of this before it has even got going, do I trust them to do what is sensible, no. It will be used to generate cash and the public will be lied to.

sunnysoutheast

Merch wrote: »

Thats fair enough, and any right minded person can see that we will be paying for what we are getting.
personally I'd prefer that the individual cost of different things that are required to be payed for are done so individually instead of going into a big tax pot.
Meters could if sensibly used, help determine and then eliminate leaks/wastage.
As the powers that be have made a fcuk of this before it has even got going, do I trust them to do what is sensible, no.

How can you say they've made a fcuk of anything, other than perhaps a communications vacuum which allowed all of these crackpot "pay for a meter" ideas to spread?

It is and will be a significant challenge to transition from a fragmented LA-based system to a nationwide utility, and it's early days yet.

SSE

mike65

Gas, electric and telecoms etc all have standing charges be they known or "invisible"

Can you imagine the mayhem if people were free to buy and install DIY fashion? You'd have no end of chaos, broken public pathways and cases of pedestrians suing for sprains and fractures.

Merch

sunnysoutheast wrote: »

How can you say they've made a fcuk of anything, other than perhaps a communications vacuum which allowed all of these crackpot "pay for a meter" ideas to spread?

It is and will be a significant challenge to transition from a fragmented LA-based system to a nationwide utility, and it's early days yet.

SSE

but that is what I am saying they have made a fcuk of, if they put this across right it would get done much easier, how this was first brought up made them look like they didnt have any plan as to what they are going to do, when such a large project is to be implemented they would have been better to say nothing until there were some more definite figures (and information)to throw around, instead its, you pay for it, oh hang on no you dont, you buy it but we rent it to you also?!
Now either they really dont have a clue what they are doing or they are trying to obscure it somehow, or they are holding something back.
I'd put money down whatever it is, that they never considered just telling the bloody truth, be straightforward and honest.
instead they go the route as they have done, it concerns me they dont seem to have a clue how to manage such a thing or how to do press releases.

sunnysoutheast

Merch wrote: »

but that is what I am saying they have made a fcuk of, if they put this across right it would get done much easier, how this was first brought up made them look like they didnt have any plan as to what they are going to do, when such a large project is to be implemented they would have been better to say nothing until there were some more definite figures (and information)to throw around, instead its, you pay for it, oh hang on no you dont, you buy it but we rent it to you also?!
Now either they really dont have a clue what they are doing or they are trying to obscure it somehow, or they are holding something back.
I'd put money down whatever it is, that they never considered just telling the bloody truth, be straightforward and honest.
instead they go the route as they have done, it concerns me they dont seem to have a clue how to manage such a thing or how to do press releases.

Well it's fair to say that government ministers haven't exactly covered themselves in glory, but it's possible that any detailed information was embargoed until the decision was announced. I don't know.

SSE

insight_man

sunnysoutheast wrote: »

Best practice is that the meters will be installed in boundary boxes which will be as close as possible to the individual property boundary. The boxes may well be installed before the meters as excavation will be required and it makes sense to do this work in bulk - the meter can be a screw-in job later. I'd expect that the property owner will be responsible for any repairs downstream of the meter and it will clearly be in their financial interest to fix any leakage.

It is also likely that the individual elements of the work will be tendered for separately, the sub-division of BG will be a contracting entity and of course metering is only a small element of the transition away from LAs to a new company covering supply and waste, which looks like a not-for-profit company - at least initially.

In the UK domestic competition has effectively been ruled out for the foreseeable future, as this would require a separation of the network and supplier businesses. To provide some context Irish Water is likely to have fewer billed customers than Thames Water (>3.2m).

The regulator for Irish Water could do a lot worse than study in detail how the UK regulator - OfWAt - works. In summary, water companies have to justify their spending plans every five years and this governs the charges they can levy.

SSE

Lets hope he/she doesent follow the example of the financial regulator. Look at the mess he made of it

insight_man

sunnysoutheast wrote: »

Well it's fair to say that government ministers haven't exactly covered themselves in glory, but it's possible that any detailed information was embargoed until the decision was announced. I don't know.

SSE

Yeah and pigs might fly